Top Law Schools

When did you start planning to transfer?
--and--
Anybody want to transfer and after getting first semester grades realize that that would be a no-go?

Overall, I'm speaking more specifically to T2 students but would like to hear from anyone really.

I'll be attending a T2 that I really like and will be happy at but I'm also open to any opportunity that comes my way if my grades are good enough. (sublte way of saying i'll be working my ass off to transfer to T-14 or maybe even to UIUC)

Basically, transferring is all about your 1L grades. Also keep in mind that you should get to know at least one of your professors outside of class, like in his or her office hours. Most transfer applications require at least one letter of recommendation from a law professor.

If you fall below the median your first semester, getting straight A's spring semester may not bring your GPA up to competitive levels. You have to do well both semesters and the bigger jump you want to make, the better your grades have to be.

Don't count on transferring because you have a 90% chance that you will not be in the top 10%. But good luck ad let us know how it goes! That's really it.

My LSAT is a few points above the school's 75th and my GPA sucks because in college...well...I was an idiot.

A few years WE in the real world has taught me a lot about discipline and other issues I had (like thinking grades didn't matter...I know...I know...) but I've come a long way.

I think I can do it.

Would it be worth it to transfer from DePaul/Loyola/Kent to UIUC? My goal is of course NW or even better UChi but would UIUC be worth the loss of my scholly?

Does your LSAT score affect your ability to transfer, or not really?

Guys, I HATE to echo what everyone says on these boards about "never planning on making the grades to transfer," but it is sooo true. I didn't believe it as a 0L - I thought being number 1 in my undergrad class meant being top of the class in law school. It's an entirely different ballgame. Everyone around you was number one (well, you get the idea) and everyone is super super smart. The competition is completely different. I have friends at various other law schools, and we have all had the same experience - law school is a humbling place. If you aren't happy with the school you're going to attend and plan on transferring, then consider reapplying. Only go if you are happy, b/c there is NO guarantee you will get the grades to transfer.

I know this is so redundant of what others have been saying on here for years, but I am only echoing it because it is so true. You will understand after you've gone through 1L. It took that long for me to get it!

Kobe_Teeth wrote:My LSAT is a few points above the school's 75th and my GPA sucks because in college...well...I was an idiot.

A few years WE in the real world has taught me a lot about discipline and other issues I had (like thinking grades didn't matter...I know...I know...) but I've come a long way.

I think I can do it.

Would it be worth it to transfer from DePaul/Loyola/Kent to UIUC? My goal is of course NW or even better UChi but would UIUC be worth the loss of my scholly?

It depends on how large your scholarship is. If it were me, I would take top 10-20% at D/L/K (w/a scholly) over UIUC any day. If you have WE and are in the T15% after 1L, apply to NU; you'll have decent shot. T5 or 10% would give you much better odds.

IzziesGal wrote:Guys, I HATE to echo what everyone says on these boards about "never planning on making the grades to transfer," but it is sooo true. I didn't believe it as a 0L - I thought being number 1 in my undergrad class meant being top of the class in law school. It's an entirely different ballgame. Everyone around you was number one (well, you get the idea) and everyone is super super smart. The competition is completely different. I have friends at various other law schools, and we have all had the same experience - law school is a humbling place. If you aren't happy with the school you're going to attend and plan on transferring, then consider reapplying. Only go if you are happy, b/c there is NO guarantee you will get the grades to transfer.

I know this is so redundant of what others have been saying on here for years, but I am only echoing it because it is so true. You will understand after you've gone through 1L. It took that long for me to get it!

Well, as I said, I like the school I'm going to and will be happy there. But as I'm pondering things and have access to this open forum I had some questions that I thought would ask.

Also....LSAT has almost nothing to do with transferring. I only mentioned it because its a better predictor or 1L success than GPA.

Kobe_Teeth wrote:My LSAT is a few points above the school's 75th and my GPA sucks because in college...well...I was an idiot.

A few years WE in the real world has taught me a lot about discipline and other issues I had (like thinking grades didn't matter...I know...I know...) but I've come a long way.

I think I can do it.

Would it be worth it to transfer from DePaul/Loyola/Kent to UIUC? My goal is of course NW or even better UChi but would UIUC be worth the loss of my scholly?

I'm glad that your confident but don't count on ANY past achievements when you start. Just because your LSAT is above the 75% median puts absolutely no weight on your potential performance. It's hard to see that now, but its true.

All you can really do is try your best, you can't aim for anything until you start earning grades. It would be worth it to transfer from those schools to one in the T14 in my opinion.

IzziesGal wrote:Guys, I HATE to echo what everyone says on these boards about "never planning on making the grades to transfer," but it is sooo true. I didn't believe it as a 0L - I thought being number 1 in my undergrad class meant being top of the class in law school. It's an entirely different ballgame. Everyone around you was number one (well, you get the idea) and everyone is super super smart. The competition is completely different. I have friends at various other law schools, and we have all had the same experience - law school is a humbling place. If you aren't happy with the school you're going to attend and plan on transferring, then consider reapplying. Only go if you are happy, b/c there is NO guarantee you will get the grades to transfer.

I know this is so redundant of what others have been saying on here for years, but I am only echoing it because it is so true. You will understand after you've gone through 1L. It took that long for me to get it!

This is good advice usually, but if I'm not mistaken, you are going to a t7 school and got in w/ a significantly lower LSAT than even the 25%, right? Kobe is in a little bit different situation. He has an LSAT score that is above the 75% and he is going to a school that is not full of people that "were #1 in their UG classes." Let's be honest Kobe, the only reason you really put all of that stuff about being happy is to placate all of the transfer nay sayers on here, right? Also, you couldn't just "retake" and get a t14, right? I assume your GPA is too low to get a t14 or even a t25 without hitting a 170+, right? Well, in your case, I don't think going in with the mindset of transferring is bad at all. Some of us made mistakes in the past and want to find another way into a top school. Granted, the conventional wisdom about going to a school "you wouldn't hate graduating from" is generally correct, but it is not the end all. Just because you "wouldn't mind" graduating from DePaul or wherever doesn't mean that you'd be happy staying there at median. You are convinced that you need to succeed and that's great. Now work on figuring out how to take law school exams and concentrate 100% on the end prize. Good luck!

A'nold wrote:

IzziesGal wrote:Guys, I HATE to echo what everyone says on these boards about "never planning on making the grades to transfer," but it is sooo true. I didn't believe it as a 0L - I thought being number 1 in my undergrad class meant being top of the class in law school. It's an entirely different ballgame. Everyone around you was number one (well, you get the idea) and everyone is super super smart. The competition is completely different. I have friends at various other law schools, and we have all had the same experience - law school is a humbling place. If you aren't happy with the school you're going to attend and plan on transferring, then consider reapplying. Only go if you are happy, b/c there is NO guarantee you will get the grades to transfer.

I know this is so redundant of what others have been saying on here for years, but I am only echoing it because it is so true. You will understand after you've gone through 1L. It took that long for me to get it!

This is good advice usually, but if I'm not mistaken, you are going to a t7 school and got in w/ a significantly lower LSAT than even the 25%, right? Kobe is in a little bit different situation. He has an LSAT score that is above the 75% and he is going to a school that is not full of people that "were #1 in their UG classes." Let's be honest Kobe, the only reason you really put all of that stuff about being happy is to placate all of the transfer nay sayers on here, right? Also, you couldn't just "retake" and get a t14, right? I assume your GPA is too low to get a t14 or even a t25 without hitting a 170+, right? Well, in your case, I don't think going in with the mindset of transferring is bad at all. Some of us made mistakes in the past and want to find another way into a top school. Granted, the conventional wisdom about going to a school "you wouldn't hate graduating from" is generally correct, but it is not the end all. Just because you "wouldn't mind" graduating from DePaul or wherever doesn't mean that you'd be happy staying there at median. You are convinced that you need to succeed and that's great. Now work on figuring out how to take law school exams and concentrate 100% on the end prize. Good luck!

Ahhh - super valid point. I defer to A'nold on this one.

Edit: A'nold, take me con law final for me!! Or yell at me to do it. I am procrastinating SOOOOOO badly!!!! Sigh.

Once you are in law school, it's a clean slate, even at a t2/3/4 school. You might think you can predict who will be at the top, but you can't do that so easily. I was a t2/3/4 to t14 transfer, and my pre-law stats/background would not have predicted I would have been able to pull that off.

Some of the people that you think are "dumb" at first glance will end up at the top of the class. At my old school, the #1 guy in our class was a frat guy with a sub-150 LSAT. A bunch of the students that sounded smart in class and had been overachievers before law school ended up below median after 1L and their conditional scholarships went bye-bye. Talk to other people who've actually transferred and they will have similar stories.

Bottom line is if you aren't going to be 100% happy graduating from the school you start at, don't enroll. It's not worth the huge debt, time, effort, and stress.

A'nold wrote:

IzziesGal wrote:Guys, I HATE to echo what everyone says on these boards about "never planning on making the grades to transfer," but it is sooo true. I didn't believe it as a 0L - I thought being number 1 in my undergrad class meant being top of the class in law school. It's an entirely different ballgame. Everyone around you was number one (well, you get the idea) and everyone is super super smart. The competition is completely different. I have friends at various other law schools, and we have all had the same experience - law school is a humbling place. If you aren't happy with the school you're going to attend and plan on transferring, then consider reapplying. Only go if you are happy, b/c there is NO guarantee you will get the grades to transfer.

I know this is so redundant of what others have been saying on here for years, but I am only echoing it because it is so true. You will understand after you've gone through 1L. It took that long for me to get it!

This is good advice usually, but if I'm not mistaken, you are going to a t7 school and got in w/ a significantly lower LSAT than even the 25%, right? Kobe is in a little bit different situation. He has an LSAT score that is above the 75% and he is going to a school that is not full of people that "were #1 in their UG classes." Let's be honest Kobe, the only reason you really put all of that stuff about being happy is to placate all of the transfer nay sayers on here, right? Also, you couldn't just "retake" and get a t14, right? I assume your GPA is too low to get a t14 or even a t25 without hitting a 170+, right? Well, in your case, I don't think going in with the mindset of transferring is bad at all. Some of us made mistakes in the past and want to find another way into a top school. Granted, the conventional wisdom about going to a school "you wouldn't hate graduating from" is generally correct, but it is not the end all. Just because you "wouldn't mind" graduating from DePaul or wherever doesn't mean that you'd be happy staying there at median. You are convinced that you need to succeed and that's great. Now work on figuring out how to take law school exams and concentrate 100% on the end prize. Good luck!

Well put. The 'end game' is finding a job.

And by the way, there are a ton of things I really like about my T2. A lot of programs that I really like...some solid well-known faculty members...nice facilities...etc. So, yea, i would be pretty happy graduating there. However, after spending time on these boards and talking to some young lawyer friends...graduating from a good (read: better) school has some obvious benefits.

Kobe_Teeth wrote:When did you start planning to transfer?
--and--
Anybody want to transfer and after getting first semester grades realize that that would be a no-go?

Overall, I'm speaking more specifically to T2 students but would like to hear from anyone really.

I'll be attending a T2 that I really like and will be happy at but I'm also open to any opportunity that comes my way if my grades are good enough. (sublte way of saying i'll be working my ass off to transfer to T-14 or maybe even to UIUC)

If I had a nickel for every kid who bragged to me about how they were going to transfer, and then promptly stfu after getting grades . . . well actually I'd still be in a lot of debt, but just less.

It's really hard to gage your transfer chances before you have grades. You'd better focus on grades, then consider transferring if you do well.

megaTTTron wrote:

Kobe_Teeth wrote:When did you start planning to transfer?
--and--
Anybody want to transfer and after getting first semester grades realize that that would be a no-go?

Overall, I'm speaking more specifically to T2 students but would like to hear from anyone really.

I'll be attending a T2 that I really like and will be happy at but I'm also open to any opportunity that comes my way if my grades are good enough. (sublte way of saying i'll be working my ass off to transfer to T-14 or maybe even to UIUC)

If I had a nickel for every kid who bragged to me about how they were going to transfer, and then promptly stfu after getting grades . . . well actually I'd still be in a lot of debt, but just less.

It's really hard to gage your transfer chances before you have grades. You'd better focus on grades, then consider transferring if you do well.

Gracias. Just curious if that was a common thing. Kinda like all girls say they never have one-night stands but we know they all do...

Like you (I think), I had a high LSAT for my school, not so great UGPA, a few years of work experience. I chose a school lower ranked school because of a scholarship. I came into my T2 with a plan/hope of transferring, realizing that there was a significant chance that I would not have the grades to do so.

As long as you're content staying at your 1L school (I knew that I would be) then having a plan to transfer can be beneficial. I think that having a plan/hope helped motivate me more than class rank/job opportunities alone would have. I would avoid mentioning your considerations until you have acceptances from schools.

Well let's see. I went in to W&L with an LSAT wayyyyyy above the 75th and a GPA wayyyyyyy below the 25th. I think I came in assuming that chances were good I'd be able to transfer. As classes started and I heard the sorts of things people said, I started thinking my chances were extremely good. Then I got a 4.0 the first semester and realized I might be able to get to Harvard... and now of course I'm worrying about my second semester grades but pretty sure that there's no way I'm falling out of the top 5%. To save on application fees, though, I'm only applying to the bottom half of the top 6 until I see my grades; then, if they're good I'll apply to HYS, and if they're bad, by which I mean, put me close to the 5% cutline or below, I'll look at Penn, Virginia, Cornell, Duke, etc. Already in at Georgetown. So really, the moral of my story is that, while you can't go into a school thinking you'll leave for certain, you probably can go in thinking there's a pretty good chance, and once classes start and you get a sense of how you stack up in your section, you'll have a better idea. Of course, participation isn't always the greatest predictor of success, but I think one can tell if one really gets the stuff, just gets the stuff, is struggling with the stuff, etc.

Obviously attending a school with the intent to transfer up is a dangerous game. It all comes down to 1L grades. That said, I'm sure there are a few things one can do to make the process easier and less stressful. Taking the time to establish relationships with professors (particularly those with areas of study you really do like and who attended the institution you want to transfer into) is a great plan even if you don't end up with the grades to transfer. They could be great recommendations for other things. Also looking at schools transfer policies earlier in the year and planning your applications ahead of time could save some stress and scrambling.

edit: just for giggles I checked the transfer-out stats for the school I will be attending. Almost nobody transfers out. Now I'm curious as to whether or not that is because the school makes it hard to transfer or if is because the high quality of life factor here. Intriguing...

traydeuce wrote:Well let's see. I went in to W&L with an LSAT wayyyyyy above the 75th and a GPA wayyyyyyy below the 25th. I think I came in assuming that chances were good I'd be able to transfer. As classes started and I heard the sorts of things people said, I started thinking my chances were extremely good. Then I got a 4.0 the first semester and realized I might be able to get to Harvard... and now of course I'm worrying about my second semester grades but pretty sure that there's no way I'm falling out of the top 5%. To save on application fees, though, I'm only applying to the bottom half of the top 6 until I see my grades; then, if they're good I'll apply to HYS, and if they're bad, by which I mean, put me close to the 5% cutline or below, I'll look at Penn, Virginia, Cornell, Duke, etc. Already in at Georgetown. So really, the moral of my story is that, while you can't go into a school thinking you'll leave for certain, you probably can go in thinking there's a pretty good chance, and once classes start and you get a sense of how you stack up in your section, you'll have a better idea. Of course, participation isn't always the greatest predictor of success, but I think one can tell if one really gets the stuff, just gets the stuff, is struggling with the stuff, etc.

jetlagz28 wrote:
Just because your LSAT is above the 75% median puts absolutely no weight on your potential performance. It's hard to see that now, but its true.

I would hesitate to say "absolutely no weight," because it's pretty conclusive that in aggregate, LSAT does put some weight on your potential performance.

With that said, LSAT alone probably isn't going to help you much. A high LSAT while doing everything else you need to do will probably have an interaction effect, though.

The advice from the W&L student seems to indicate that those people with LSATs above the 75th percentile, such as the OP, should not be dissuaded from thinking of transferring. Quite frankly, the OP is in the top 15% or higher in terms of 'intelligence' based on his LSAT score at his school

Whether one wishes to believe in the ability of the LSAT to predict 1L success, the OP is clearly be one of the smartest people in his class based on his LSAT score. Since the LSAT is a standardized test taken by all law school applicants, and thus a better measure of 'intelligence' than undergraduate GPA, I do not see why the OP should not be confident in his ability to transfer. To be honest, it is not as if he is going to a law school that will be populated with the top kids from the best undergraduate schools. He is a 1L that is 'smarter', based on the LSAT, than atleast 75-80% of his class. With this in mind, and a solid work ethic, I see no reason why the OP needs to be 'fearful' of his ability to transfer. Best of luck OP!

vandy2012 wrote:The advice from the W&L student seems to indicate that those people with LSATs above the 75th percentile, such as the OP, should not be dissuaded from thinking of transferring. Quite frankly, the OP is in the top 15% or higher in terms of 'intelligence' based on his LSAT score at his school

Whether one wishes to believe in the ability of the LSAT to predict 1L success, the OP is clearly be one of the smartest people in his class based on his LSAT score. Since the LSAT is a standardized test taken by all law school applicants, and thus a better measure of 'intelligence' than undergraduate GPA, I do not see why the OP should not be confident in his ability to transfer. To be honest, it is not as if he is going to a law school that will be populated with the top kids from the best undergraduate schools. He is a 1L that is 'smarter', based on the LSAT, than atleast 75-80% of his class. With this in mind, and a solid work ethic, I see no reason why the OP needs to be 'fearful' of his ability to transfer. Best of luck OP!

So many ridiculous assumptions, so little time.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the LSAT an intelligence test. It tests a narrow subset of problem-solving, reading, and logical reasoning skills that many think are applicable to the practice of law. I don't doubt that intelligence plays into this, but I also doubt the correlation is close to 100%. There's more to succeeding in law school than being able to solve LSAT problems quickly, even if you are just talking about the area of intelligence.

JCougar wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to call the LSAT an intelligence test. It tests a narrow subset of problem-solving, reading, and logical reasoning skills that many think are applicable to the practice of law. I don't doubt that intelligence plays into this, but I also doubt the correlation is close to 100%. There's more to succeeding in law school than being able to solve LSAT problems quickly, even if you are just talking about the area of intelligence.

Emphasis on the "timed" part. That makes a huge difference in score.

Eh, I don't see any problem with planning to transfer as long as you are o.k. with the "backup plan" of staying. Especially for us lower GPA kids that went to a school with way above the school's 75th, it is more than a coin flip goal.

Any thoughts on whether it's harder to transfer out of a school if they don't provide class rank? I'm in this situation and it's very frustrating, I can't really tell where I have a shot.