transferring to Harvard via t14 Forum

[justiceman]

Hi. I'm applying for law school next cycle with a 2.63 (huge upward trend) and 179 LSAT. Assuming I make it into a T14, what are my chances of transferring up to Harvard if I make it into top 3% (I know there big IFs)? Will my undergrad GPA count me out despite any success in 1L at a T14?

And here's another big IF, although I am either arrogant or talented enough to believe it's a good possibility: if I apply to Harvard Law Review as a transfer student and make it on via the writing competition, will that pretty much guarantee me a transfer regardless of my undergrad GPA?

Thanks for any advice. Tough questions I know.

[Big Shrimpin]

No offense, but you might want to do a bit of searching via the TLS search function to learn about the general sentiment towards applying to law school with the intent/goal of transferring up. The rule on point, generally, is that you should never matriculate at a law school unless you would be perfectly happy graduating from it as well.

That said, if you do happen to make it into the t14 and finish somewhere within the top 3%, you may or may not have a good shot at H. Depending on whether H takes ugpa into consideration (apparently, from what has been thrown around on these boards, you need at least a baseline--and I have no idea what that is--lsat/ugpa to be considered on transfer admission), you might be in a tough spot. I'm guessing you at least know that.

I'm not really sure what:

And here's another big IF, although I am either arrogant or talented enough to believe it's a good possibility: if I apply to Harvard Law Review as a transfer student and make it on via the writing competition, will that pretty much guarantee me a transfer regardless of my undergrad GPA?

means. Apply to HLR as a transfer and guarantee you a transfer regardless of ugpa? Maybe I'm missing something?

However, do check out the yahoo transferapps group. Lots of good info for ya there.

[09042014]

Hi. I'm applying for law school next cycle with a 2.63 (huge upward trend) and 179 LSAT. Assuming I make it into a T14, what are my chances of transferring up to Harvard if I make it into top 3% (I know there big IFs)? Will my undergrad GPA count me out despite any success in 1L at a T14?

And here's another big IF, although I am either arrogant or talented enough to believe it's a good possibility: if I apply to Harvard Law Review as a transfer student and make it on via the writing competition, will that pretty much guarantee me a transfer regardless of my undergrad GPA?

Thanks for any advice. Tough questions I know.

Its possible. Its also possible from the T20 as well.

You probably won't get into any t14 except for Northwestern, so make sure you get some work experience and do an interview with them.

[apper123]

Why don't you worry about these things when you are actually in law school and actually have grades. It's a waste of time/effort now. You have no idea how you will do, and I doubt the answer to any of your questions will change your approach. You have other things to concentrate on atm like gettin those acceptances in! Good luck! Relax!

[Aeroplane]

I don't think that looking way ahead is a waste of time. I did research on clerkships and academia long before I even had an LSAT score, despite my relatively crappy UGPA and absence of any certainty that I'd get into any "top" school. As long as these queries aren't taking time away from anything important, I think it's good to have an idea of what's out there and to find out what options, if any, are absolutely closed to you no matter how well you perform in the future.

[underachiever]

1) thats an awesome LSAT score
2) good luck, admissions is a crap shoot with a split like that
3) good luck Law School sucks, lol
4) Don't go to a LS your not happy graduating from!
5) In some respect LS grades are also crap shoot, so you really can't bank on anything
6) if you get into a CCN or MVBP school you would need top 15% or higher for an H transfer to be a possibility
7) for DCNG you would need top 10% or higher
Both higher then usually due to low UG gpa
9) for Stanford or Yale you would have to be higher...H takes more transfers (35ish) the the other two and I can only see them taking even more this year.

[apper123]

I don't think that looking way ahead is a waste of time. I did research on clerkships and academia long before I even had an LSAT score, despite my relatively crappy UGPA and absence of any certainty that I'd get into any "top" school. As long as these queries aren't taking time away from anything important, I think it's good to have an idea of what's out there and to find out what options, if any, are absolutely closed to you no matter how well you perform in the future.

The problem is you should never go into law school with the thought of transferring. It causes you to make an uninformed decision when picking a law school, may detrimentally affect your choice to even go or not and sets you up to be absolutely soulcrushed when you have no idea whether you will do well or not.

[starstruck393]

I don't think that looking way ahead is a waste of time. I did research on clerkships and academia long before I even had an LSAT score, despite my relatively crappy UGPA and absence of any certainty that I'd get into any "top" school. As long as these queries aren't taking time away from anything important, I think it's good to have an idea of what's out there and to find out what options, if any, are absolutely closed to you no matter how well you perform in the future.

The problem is you should never go into law school with the thought of transferring. It causes you to make an uninformed decision when picking a law school, may detrimentally affect your choice to even go or not and sets you up to be absolutely soulcrushed when you have no idea whether you will do well or not.

I think there's a big difference of going to a T14 wanting to transfer, where top 20% can get you into H, and going to a T3/4 looking to transfer up to T14/20/30/etc. If you end up not being able to transfer up from the T14, you're still at a T14, and will still have good prospects. H would be nice, but T14 is still far from the end of the world. On the other hand, if you go to a T3/4 hoping to transfer up and can't, your job options could be severely limited.

While it's never ideal to go in intending to transfer, you need to take into account the situation before giving a cookie cutter condemnation...

[Aeroplane]

I don't think that looking way ahead is a waste of time. I did research on clerkships and academia long before I even had an LSAT score, despite my relatively crappy UGPA and absence of any certainty that I'd get into any "top" school. As long as these queries aren't taking time away from anything important, I think it's good to have an idea of what's out there and to find out what options, if any, are absolutely closed to you no matter how well you perform in the future.

The problem is you should never go into law school [strike]with the thought of[/strike] relying on transferring. It causes you to make an uninformed decision when picking a law school, may detrimentally affect your choice to even go or not and sets you up to be absolutely soulcrushed when you have no idea whether you will do well or not.

FTFY.

[Renzo]

While it's never ideal to go in intending to transfer, you need to take into account the situation before giving a cookie cutter condemnation...

The cookie-cutter advice of 'never matriculate at a school you don't want to be a graduate of' still applies, it just changes the calculus. Almost everyone should be happy to matriculate at a T14, but if someone was the kind of person who feels entitled by birthright to a spot on HLR, then maybe that isn't true. Transferring isn't necessarily easier within the T14. Yes, there is a larger percentage of the class that might be eligible, but first-year ranking is just as unpredictable as at any other school, and the idea the anyone can count on outperforming classmates isn't clearheaded thinking.

[4910]

what guarantee is there that you will outperform some of the brightest students in the world? especially considering the format of law school examinations

[starstruck393]

While it's never ideal to go in intending to transfer, you need to take into account the situation before giving a cookie cutter condemnation...

The cookie-cutter advice of 'never matriculate at a school you don't want to be a graduate of' still applies, it just changes the calculus. Almost everyone should be happy to matriculate at a T14, but if someone was the kind of person who feels entitled by birthright to a spot on HLR, then maybe that isn't true. Transferring isn't necessarily easier within the T14. Yes, there is a larger percentage of the class that might be eligible, but first-year ranking is just as unpredictable as at any other school, and the idea the anyone can count on outperforming classmates isn't clearheaded thinking.

I didn't read not wanting to graduate from a T14 from the OP, just wanting to transfer to H. If OP would be truly unhappy to graduate from a T14 (past just general disappointment), then yeah, ls isn't the right move.

[Joga Bonito]

Can people just answer the efffing question all this preaching...the guy said he knows the entire scenario is a big if(in fact he said it several times).

The answer is YES, if you make top 3% at a T14 you will have a good shot at transferring to HLS. regardless of ugpa, theres plenty of evidence that ugpa doesnt matter much when transferring even for HLS.

[Drew2010]

what guarantee is there that you will outperform some of the brightest students in the world? especially considering the format of law school examinations

Assuming I make it into a T14, what are my chances of transferring up to Harvard if I make it into top 3% (I know there big IFs)?

Obviously he doesn't think it is guaranteed.. don't be an ass

If I were to guess OP is reflecting on how he fucked up in ugrad, and is wondering if there is any hope of making up for his mistakes via transfer, eventually getting into the schools he probably would be getting into had he not screwed up his ugrad GPA. Wanting to know what’s possible isn't the same as thinking the best case scenario is guaranteed.

[Renzo]

Can people just answer the efffing question all this preaching...the guy said he knows the entire scenario is a big if(in fact he said it several times).

The answer is YES, if you make top 3% at a T14 you will have a good shot at transferring to HLS. regardless of ugpa, theres plenty of evidence that ugpa doesnt matter much when transferring even for HLS.

Yes, we could, but sometimes its helpful to provide some meta-context surround the answer. Like if someone asked "if I go golfing this weekend, is it possible I'll be struck by lightning?" We could say "yes" or we could say "the chances are vanishingly small, and you shouldn't let them effect your behavior, but yes, it's possible."

[of Benito Cereno]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

[starstruck393]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

Who in this thread has said don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy graduating at median from. All I've seen is don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy to graduate from, period. Big difference...

[Joga Bonito]

Can people just answer the efffing question all this preaching...the guy said he knows the entire scenario is a big if(in fact he said it several times).

The answer is YES, if you make top 3% at a T14 you will have a good shot at transferring to HLS. regardless of ugpa, theres plenty of evidence that ugpa doesnt matter much when transferring even for HLS.

Yes, we could, but sometimes its helpful to provide some meta-context surround the answer. Like if someone asked "if I go golfing this weekend, is it possible I'll be struck by lightning?" We could say "yes" or we could say "the chances are vanishingly small, and you shouldn't let them effect your behavior, but yes, it's possible."

meta context...He provided all the context in the beginning he clearly said its not very likely, i.e., a big if. People just want to soap box about stuff.

In fact, chances are that the people who do transfer to hls from t14s wanted to since day one and worked accordingly, there's nothing wrong with wanting it, as long as you keep stuff in perspective.

[of Benito Cereno]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

Who in this thread has said don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy graduating at median from. All I've seen is don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy to graduate from, period. Big difference...

just venting, perhaps pre-emyptivaely (general sentiment one reads in this sort of thread)

[slider]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

Who in this thread has said don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy graduating at median from. All I've seen is don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy to graduate from, period. Big difference...

just venting, perhaps pre-emyptivaely (general sentiment one reads in this sort of thread)

I agree with all you have said. However, I opt for allowing the negativity to continue.
Premise: More negativity regarding the topic = Less transfer competition?

[patrickd139]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

You clearly have not been to law school. That is all.

[Joga Bonito]

I am getting really sick of this "don't go to any law school you wouldn't be happy graduating median from."
Why? Just because people repeat this over and over again doesn't make it true.
When I started studying for the LSAT I didn't tell myself "only make the effort studying if you'll be happy with the median score?"
What is wrong with people setting high goals for themselves? They may end up disappointed but there is no reason why people shouldn't go to a law school with the desire to transfer or place in the top 10%. Sure they may very well be disappointed but so what. What's wrong with setting a high but uncertain goal and gambling on it some. This is especially true if one doesn't have to worry about debt (for whatever reason- family money, savings, scholarship) but before people on this site trot out the whole "don't go to any school blah blah blah" cliche do they ever ask the poster if they can afford to pay for a school even if their satisfaction with the product is not guaranteed upon payment. If somebody can afford to go to law school with little debt and really hopes that after their first year they'll transfer to school X then why the hell not. Do we know what supposedly wonderful options this person has besides going to the best school possible with the goal of transferring to HLS. No. Feel free to mention how difficult placing in the top 10% at any school, let alone a T14, is. There is no 'general rule' and people need to really shut up. Just because you've heard a bunch of other 22 year olds say the same platitude on this website doesn't mean anything.

Who in this thread has said don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy graduating at median from. All I've seen is don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy to graduate from, period. Big difference...

just venting, perhaps pre-emyptivaely (general sentiment one reads in this sort of thread)

I agree with all you have said. However, I opt for allowing the negativity to continue.
Premise: More negativity regarding the topic = Less transfer competition?

+1 Great point! Yeahhh, theres no way you can transfer dude, don’t even try just stay put. LMFAO

[traydeuce]

Contrary to what almost everyone is telling this guy, my own advice as a 2.72/174 who had to settle for W&L, never thought for a second that I'd stay here all three years, would've rather shot myself than graduate from here whatever my class rank was, aced everything last semester without even studying, and now may just get into Harvard, is as follows. So long as you read and go to class and don't spend all of your class time on Facebook, you will do well. Law school is not particularly difficult if you're bright - the level of detail we're talking about in 1L classes is for the most part that of a college survey course, nor is the subject matter that complex, or the reading that lengthy. Individual grades can be a matter of chance, as is the Harvard transfer process. But unless you don't do the reading and/or don't listen to anything in class, you'll do well enough to move upwards, if not to Harvard. You will be surprised, even at the lower top 14 schools, by how weak the competition is. And you'll generally find that the only people who buy 20 supplements for each class and spend umpteen hours a week on each course are the ones who have no chance of doing well to begin with. There's really very little to learn - to give you an example, my outline for Civil Procedure, supposedly one of the harder, more arcane classes a 1L takes, was just 7 pages long. All you have to do for that whole class is learn and correctly apply 7 pages of pretty simple rules. In many cases you won't even have to memorize them all; they'll let you bring the outline to your exam. Where people fail is that they're just not talented enough to know how to apply these relatively simple rules properly, or understand what they mean, just as there are those who could spend a fortune on LSAT prep materials and still suck at the games. Since you're smart, that won't be a problem for you; your only possible pitfalls are laziness or alcoholism or whatever hindered you in college. But there's no reason for what held you back then to hold you back now, because college really involves much more work, and vastly more busywork, than law school does. So you can get away with being lazier in law school. Ultimately, the crucial thing if you're a bit of a slacker, as I am, is to actually find law interesting. If law bores you to death and you're just going to law school for the sake of the career, you won't do nearly as well. So long as you don't mind listening to someone talk a few hours a week about jurisdiction, and carefully reading 50 pages a week about the same, you'll do very well.

[apper123]

Contrary to what almost everyone is telling this guy, my own advice as a 2.72/174 who had to settle for W&L, never thought for a second that I'd stay here all three years, would've rather shot myself than graduate from here whatever my class rank was, aced everything last semester without even studying, and now may just get into Harvard, is as follows. So long as you read and go to class and don't spend all of your class time on Facebook, you will do well. Law school is not particularly difficult if you're bright - the level of detail we're talking about in 1L classes is for the most part that of a college survey course, nor is the subject matter that complex, or the reading that lengthy. Individual grades can be a matter of chance, as is the Harvard transfer process. But unless you don't do the reading and/or don't listen to anything in class, you'll do well enough to move upwards, if not to Harvard. You will be surprised, even at the lower top 14 schools, by how weak the competition is. And you'll generally find that the only people who buy 20 supplements for each class and spend umpteen hours a week on each course are the ones who have no chance of doing well to begin with. There's really very little to learn - to give you an example, my outline for Civil Procedure, supposedly one of the harder, more arcane classes a 1L takes, was just 7 pages long. All you have to do for that whole class is learn and correctly apply 7 pages of pretty simple rules. In many cases you won't even have to memorize them all; they'll let you bring the outline to your exam. Where people fail is that they're just not talented enough to know how to apply these relatively simple rules properly, or understand what they mean, just as there are those who could spend a fortune on LSAT prep materials and still suck at the games. Since you're smart, that won't be a problem for you; your only possible pitfalls are laziness or alcoholism or whatever hindered you in college. But there's no reason for what held you back then to hold you back now, because college really involves much more work, and vastly more busywork, than law school does. So you can get away with being lazier in law school. Ultimately, the crucial thing if you're a bit of a slacker, as I am, is to actually find law interesting. If law bores you to death and you're just going to law school for the sake of the career, you won't do nearly as well. So long as you don't mind listening to someone talk a few hours a week about jurisdiction, and carefully reading 50 pages a week about the same, you'll do very well.

Again, congratulations on being so brilliant (although I suggest you study paragraph usage) and having the law come naturally to you, but this isn't the case for everyone. I bought 20 supplements and studied umpteen hours and finished top 5 %. However, I didn't even outline Civ Pro, so I gotchya there.

If it were as easy as just paying attention in class, reading the cases and taking good notes then 75 % of my classmates (who do all those things) would be top 10 %. Obviously that's not the case.

[vanwinkle]

I think there's a big difference of going to a T14 wanting to transfer, where top 20% can get you into H

This may have been true before, but it's almost certainly not true ITE. I would honestly expect transfer apps for H to be up 100% or more this year over prior years as people start witnessing the true effects of the economic meltdown and trying to bolt for greener pastures. I wouldn't even bet on making H if you're top 10% at a T14 at this point.

Though if this ends up being true, the good news is that it'll mean T14s taking more transfers to try to make up the difference in their 2L class size, so a bunch of people at lower-ranked schools might get a better chance to move up. Of course, they're getting what the Harvard-bound folks ran away from, if that tells you anything...