It's not too late to rethink this whole endeavor! Forum

[Mr. Matlock]

FWIW, I did read the OP's blog and there is some good information there. He doesn't go overboard painting a picture that everyone he comes across has been doomed to failure, but shows that there is a real scare and concern among many students who have just graduated. Yes, I know, we hear this all the time, but this guy is actually out in the field going school to school and seeing actual numbers.

Just saying.

[webbylu87]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I can't help but agree with this.

[09042014]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I can't help but agree with this.

The number of legal jobs available is considerably less than the number of graduates. The number of jobs paying enough to justify 200K in debt is many times smaller than the number of grads.

90% of Illinois Class of 2011 didn't get big law. Are they all losers?

Gun your ass off son.

[traehekat]

FWIW, I did read the OP's blog and there is some good information there. He doesn't go overboard painting a picture that everyone he comes across has been doomed to failure, but shows that there is a real scare and concern among many students who have just graduated. Yes, I know, we hear this all the time, but this guy is actually out in the field going school to school and seeing actual numbers.

Just saying.

Judas.

[Matthies]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

This is pretty much spot on. The fact is law is more like sales than its not. It's not an office job, you can't just sit at your desk and expect other people to bring in business then hand you a issue to write about and give you a fat paycheck for the next ten years. Law is a business, legal advice is the product, those that are successful at law understand this from the get go and know "Making Rain" is the entire real point of being a lawyer in private practice. Yale degree or not, if you can't do that you won't last. You want an office job where you don't have to worry about sales, creating legal work (yes lawyers at law firms create legal work for their clients, if you waited for clients to come to you with legal work you would go broke) or keeping your job past 5 years as an associate, got into accounting.

[savesthedayajb]

Fuck biglaw. We are entering the golden age of small/medium law.

[NU_Jet55]

Judas.

+1

[Matthies]

Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business.

Which is pretty much what being a lawyer is actually like, but few people going to law school understand that fact

[wakefield]

I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.

This is exactly what I was saying. whosjohngalt, go back and look at what you said (which I bolded). You seem to think that its only moderately beneficial at best for an applicant to accept half-schooly at a T14 as opposed to just going into the workforce right now. Unless your sitting on a pile of gold come graduation from UG, how would accepting a half-scholly to a T14 or even a full scholly to a strong regional be a bad decision? With a BA you're lucky to be making 30k/yr (that is if you even find a job, which I've already explained is hard enough for recent college grads). Even if you only end up making 40k graduating from law school, as long as you didn't tak out astronomical amounts of money to attend school, law school would be a wise investment. Why? 1.your potential to make money over the longhaul is statistally greater than someone with just a bachelors 2.chances are you'll be happier at your job, at least in relative terms. I know I at least would enjoy my job and life much more if I was making 40k/yr as a lawyer as opposed to 40k/yr in sales. I guess no.2 comes down to some personal preference but still.

Exactly - I'll be walking away from a 30k/yr job with no benefits that I was lucky to find. Law school gives me a fighting chance at improving that situation, and ITE it's really my best bet. Even if it happens to be what every other college grad is doing, I don't see some awesome alternative that I'm passing up. I could struggle and keep making 30k/yr at a job I hate, or I could go to law school and come out still making 30k, perhaps still hating my job. At least I'll have tried to better my life and career.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I can't help but agree with this.

The number of legal jobs available is considerably less than the number of graduates. The number of jobs paying enough to justify 200K in debt is many times smaller than the number of grads.

90% of Illinois Class of 2011 didn't get big law. Are they all losers?

Gun your ass off son.

Agreed. pjo seems to imply that it is the personal failings of people for not trying hard enough or being able to make it rain. That may be partly to blame but the issue now is that people aren't given a chance. OK, in 10 years you're going to be a great lawyer, had you been given a chance to get a legal job. What happens when you can't even get your foot in the door?

[Mr. Matlock]

FWIW, I did read the OP's blog and there is some good information there. He doesn't go overboard painting a picture that everyone he comes across has been doomed to failure, but shows that there is a real scare and concern among many students who have just graduated. Yes, I know, we hear this all the time, but this guy is actually out in the field going school to school and seeing actual numbers.

Just saying.

Judas.

--ImageRemoved--

I come from a sales background. I have to look out for all my peeps from time to time.

[pjo]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I can't help but agree with this.

The number of legal jobs available is considerably less than the number of graduates. The number of jobs paying enough to justify 200K in debt is many times smaller than the number of grads.

90% of Illinois Class of 2011 didn't get big law. Are they all losers?

Gun your ass off son.

Where in what I wrote do you get that if you don't get big law or make less than 200k than you're a loser? I'm sure some ppl on this site might agree with that; however, I would not. Personaly (and I understand defining success is different for different ppl) if I was able to work at a career I enjoy going to every morning and make enough money to live comfortably then I would feel like I had succeed. My point was, you're a loser if life chews you up and spits you out and then instead of doing something about it you go online to JDU and complain about how your life sucks because you went to law school ("boo hoo poor me, life is hard all because I went to law school"). Listen it's a known fact that successful ppl act in certain ways that non-successful ppl do not. It has a lot to do with attitude and my guess is that the ppl on JDU would have failed even if the economy was good or no matter what profession they were in b/c of their personality and attitude. Successful ppl find a way to succeed even if one doesn't apper to be present at first glance, whereas unsuccessful ppl just look for some to blame. How you define success is up to you, im just saying.

[TTTGrad]

Kids, YHS does not grade on a traditional A-F scale. Rest assured there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly. Let me clarify a point I made earlier. I am not saying there is much difference (e.g., intellectually) between someone who graduated in the top 25% at HLS over someone who graduated in the top 30% at the bottom rung of the T14 (i.e., Cornell and Georgetown). However, in this economy, legal employers can be that selective and eschew graduates of the bottom T14. Don't worry, many grads of the T14 will still have first dibs on whatever doc review assignments are left over after the industry completes the transfer of these tasks to barristers abroad. Thankfully, the ABA recently opined that it is ethical to assign document review, discovery and legal drafting to offshore operations so long as a licensed attorney in the States can supervise the work. GC's, biglaw and midlaw were thankful for this decision since we can now maximize our profits by cutting our overhead (getting rid of ridiculously high associate salaries, including health benefits, workers comp. insurance, etc.), save on rental space and of course, avoid bs lawsuits (racial & sexual discrimination, wrongful termination, etc.). I am afraid most of you kids decided to join this profession a little too late. Don't worry, there are many things you can do with a law degree. You can become a community organizer, then become a U.S. senator and then ascend to the presidency. Keep the dream alive kids, I am sure your law school dean appreciates your patronage.

[09042014]

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I can't help but agree with this.

The number of legal jobs available is considerably less than the number of graduates. The number of jobs paying enough to justify 200K in debt is many times smaller than the number of grads.

90% of Illinois Class of 2011 didn't get big law. Are they all losers?

Gun your ass off son.

Where in what I wrote do you get that if you don't get big law or make less than 200k than you're a loser? I'm sure some ppl on this site might agree with that; however, I would not. Personaly (and I understand defining success is different for different ppl) if I was able to work at a career I enjoy going to every morning and make enough money to live comfortably then I would feel like I had succeed. My point was, you're a loser if life chews you up and spits you out and then instead of doing something about it you go online to JDU and complain about how your life sucks because you went to law school ("boo hoo poor me, life is hard all because I went to law school"). Listen it's a known fact that successful ppl act in certain ways that non-successful ppl do not. It has a lot to do with attitude and my guess is that the ppl on JDU would have failed even if the economy was good or no matter what profession they were in b/c of their personality and attitude. Successful ppl find a way to succeed even if one doesn't apper to be present at first glance, whereas unsuccessful ppl just look for some to blame. How you define success is up to you, im just saying.

I'm defining it as ability to pay your law school debt. A pretty low bar if you ask me.

There just aren't enough jobs to go around right now.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

Where in what I wrote do you get that if you don't get big law or make less than 200k than you're a loser? I'm sure some ppl on this site might agree with that; however, I would not. Personaly (and I understand defining success is different for different ppl) if I was able to work at a career I enjoy going to every morning and make enough money to live comfortably then I would feel like I had succeed. My point was, you're a loser if life chews you up and spits you out and then instead of doing something about it you go online to JDU and complain about how your life sucks because you went to law school ("boo hoo poor me, life is hard all because I went to law school"). Listen it's a known fact that successful ppl act in certain ways that non-successful ppl do not. It has a lot to do with attitude and my guess is that the ppl on JDU would have failed even if the economy was good or no matter what profession they were in b/c of their personality and attitude. Successful ppl find a way to succeed even if one doesn't apper to be present at first glance, whereas unsuccessful ppl just look for some to blame. How you define success is up to you, im just saying.

[/quote]

Fair enough. So do you have to spend 150K first to find that success? The cream will rise to the top right? Why don't these successful people just use that innate talent and make millions starting today?

Optimism Bias is what I was looking for earlier. I'm afraid that many, many people on here are plagued with it.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Kids, YHS does not grade on a traditional A-F scale. Rest assured there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly. Let me clarify a point I made earlier. I am not saying there is much difference (e.g., intellectually) between someone who graduated in the top 25% at HLS over someone who graduated in the top 30% at the bottom rung of the T14 (i.e., Cornell and Georgetown). However, in this economy, legal employers can be that selective and eschew graduates of the bottom T14. Don't worry, many grads of the T14 will still have first dibs on whatever doc review assignments are left over after the industry completes the transfer of these tasks to barristers abroad. Thankfully, the ABA recently opined that it is ethical to assign document review, discovery and legal drafting to offshore operations so long as a licensed attorney in the States can supervise the work. GC's, biglaw and midlaw were thankful for this decision since we can now maximize our profits by cutting our overhead (getting rid of ridiculously high associate salaries, including health benefits, workers comp. insurance, etc.), save on rental space and of course, avoid bs lawsuits (racial & sexual discrimination, wrongful termination, etc.). I am afraid most of you kids decided to join this profession a little too late. Don't worry, there are many things you can do with a law degree. You can become a community organizer, then become a U.S. senator and then ascend to the presidency. Keep the dream alive kids, I am sure your law school dean appreciates your patronage.

This seems pretty risky.

[pjo]

Fair enough. So do you have to spend 150K first to find that success? The cream will rise to the top right? Why don't these successful people just use that innate talent and make millions starting today?

Optimism Bias is what I was looking for earlier. I'm afraid that many, many people on here are plagued with it.

150K?? dude seriously, not everyone is paying full price for school. I actually think the majority of ppl on this site have scholarship to the school they’re going to so… no, it is in no way necessary to take out 150k in loans to achieve the success I stated.

[TTTGrad]

Kids, YHS does not grade on a traditional A-F scale. Rest assured there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly. Let me clarify a point I made earlier. I am not saying there is much difference (e.g., intellectually) between someone who graduated in the top 25% at HLS over someone who graduated in the top 30% at the bottom rung of the T14 (i.e., Cornell and Georgetown). However, in this economy, legal employers can be that selective and eschew graduates of the bottom T14. Don't worry, many grads of the T14 will still have first dibs on whatever doc review assignments are left over after the industry completes the transfer of these tasks to barristers abroad. Thankfully, the ABA recently opined that it is ethical to assign document review, discovery and legal drafting to offshore operations so long as a licensed attorney in the States can supervise the work. GC's, biglaw and midlaw were thankful for this decision since we can now maximize our profits by cutting our overhead (getting rid of ridiculously high associate salaries, including health benefits, workers comp. insurance, etc.), save on rental space and of course, avoid bs lawsuits (racial & sexual discrimination, wrongful termination, etc.). I am afraid most of you kids decided to join this profession a little too late. Don't worry, there are many things you can do with a law degree. You can become a community organizer, then become a U.S. senator and then ascend to the presidency. Keep the dream alive kids, I am sure your law school dean appreciates your patronage.

This seems pretty risky.

Maybe you should write a letter to the ABA and ask that they reconsider opinion 08-451.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

Fair enough. So do you have to spend 150K first to find that success? The cream will rise to the top right? Why don't these successful people just use that innate talent and make millions starting today?

Optimism Bias is what I was looking for earlier. I'm afraid that many, many people on here are plagued with it.

150K?? dude seriously, not everyone is paying full price for school. I actually think the majority of ppl on this site have scholarship to the school they’re going to so… no, it is in no way necessary to take out 150k in loans to achieve the success I stated.

I'm just referring to people who are paying sticker or a hefty sum. If you're getting a full/partial ride, it's a completely different story. I still wouldn't be thrilled with the job prospects but at least you wouldn't be racked with the debt.

[NU_Jet55]

there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly.

Yeah, but nobody cares.

http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/7749.htm

"I personally have never heard of anyone failing."

"The question I am usually asked next is how important are Honors? And to that I answer, not very."

Take your "knowledge" someplace else where people are actually ignorant of the risks they are taking by going to law school. Read through TLS a bit; you'll see discussions of ITE and and employment statistics with personal experiences and horror stories EVERYWHERE. You're not bringing us new or even beneficial information.

Basically, we know. Keep your useless platitudes and anecdotes to yourself.

Kthxluvyoubye.

[09042014]

there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly.

Yeah, but nobody cares.

http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/7749.htm

"I personally have never heard of anyone failing."

"The question I am usually asked next is how important are Honors? And to that I answer, not very."

Take your "knowledge" someplace else where people are actually ignorant of the risks they are taking by going to law school. Read through TLS a bit; you'll see discussions of ITE and and employment statistics with personal experiences and horror stories EVERYWHERE. You're not bringing us new or even beneficial information.

Basically, we know. Keep your useless platitudes and anecdotes to yourself.

Kthxluvyoubye.

At Yale it doesn't matter as much, but at HLS, a couple L's makes finding work hard.

[dk8]

This guy isn't very bright. He's somewhat correct, for a large number of law students it is an awful decision. But claiming you have to be top 25% at Yale is fucking retarded. You don't even have to be top 25% at Texas for it to pay off.

I wouldn't go below USC for any less than full ride.

TTTGrad comes on here talking straight out of his ass, spouting crazy shit about needing to be top 25% at Yale. Then when people call him on this, he starts attacking strawmen.

What's actually going on is bad enough. He doesn't have to make shit up.

[J-tow10]

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

You do realize that this just proves my point that the problem with people having a tough time in a law career is not so much a problem with the profession itself but moreso a problem inherent within the person failing at the profession. I think its laughable with all the negativity on JDU. Its clear to me at least, that the ppl on there that complain would have failed at anything they did, they just happened to pick law and thats that. This is a huge generaliztion but I would say the majority of the people on there have the attitude that when they are initally unsuccessful at something their first reaction is to look at someone or something to blame (law school/economy/the profession) rather than look for alternative ways to succeed. Of course ppl who can't cut it in the real world won't be able to make it rain, but at the same time would they have really been any good at another profession? I'm highly doubtful.

I do agree that the people in life who have always worked hard will eventually succeed in life, however, I think it's overly simplistic to automatically attribute the "failures" of those who haven't "struck it big" to inherent inadequacies in their work ethic. There are many people in this world who work extremely hard and still don't succeed simply because of bad luck/their situation.

[Lisa7n99]

Wow, this guy must be a BLAST to hang out with. lol. we're all going to die, we're not going to make it.........we're all grown ups and can determine our own paths. all careers, decisions come with risk. best to all of you who have decided to jump in. i hope it pays dividends for all of you, no matter your goals.

[bilbobaggins]

This is all especially hilarious when you have tons of friends at your T14 who have great firm jobs this summer.