It's not too late to rethink this whole endeavor! Forum

[eldizknee]

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[WhoIsJohnGalt]

This is all especially hilarious when you have tons of friends at your T14 who have great firm jobs this summer.

Yeah, those jobs are everywhere. I've heard firms are actually doubling the size of their summer class this year. I'm still deciding on whether I should go in-house at Google or start at a V10 and make the transition in a year.

[Matthies]

Kids, YHS does not grade on a traditional A-F scale. Rest assured there is a grading policy (High pass, pass, low pass and fail) and students will be ranked accordingly. Let me clarify a point I made earlier. I am not saying there is much difference (e.g., intellectually) between someone who graduated in the top 25% at HLS over someone who graduated in the top 30% at the bottom rung of the T14 (i.e., Cornell and Georgetown). However, in this economy, legal employers can be that selective and eschew graduates of the bottom T14. Don't worry, many grads of the T14 will still have first dibs on whatever doc review assignments are left over after the industry completes the transfer of these tasks to barristers abroad. Thankfully, the ABA recently opined that it is ethical to assign document review, discovery and legal drafting to offshore operations so long as a licensed attorney in the States can supervise the work. GC's, biglaw and midlaw were thankful for this decision since we can now maximize our profits by cutting our overhead (getting rid of ridiculously high associate salaries, including health benefits, workers comp. insurance, etc.), save on rental space and of course, avoid bs lawsuits (racial & sexual discrimination, wrongful termination, etc.). I am afraid most of you kids decided to join this profession a little too late. Don't worry, there are many things you can do with a law degree. You can become a community organizer, then become a U.S. senator and then ascend to the presidency. Keep the dream alive kids, I am sure your law school dean appreciates your patronage.

This seems pretty risky.

Maybe you should write a letter to the ABA and ask that they reconsider opinion 08-451.

Opinion 08-451 did nothing to change the prevalent practice of outsourcing legal work to contract attorneys, except solidity how it fits into the model rules, and specifically say charging a fee on top of the contract attorney's bill to the client was permitted under the model rules. This has actually been a benefit to US based contract attorneys because it clarified the uncertainty and billing practices of the supervising attorney when he hired contract attorneys (here I am not referring to contract attorneys employed by/at the firm, but independent contract attorneys who have their own practice, hired guns if you will).

I've done pretty well for myself in law school and out doing contract work. So long as you posses the contacts and the skills I addressed earlier to make rain, Making Rain by having lawyers contract with you (i.e. they come to you, not the other way around) has been pretty lucrative for me.

[Locke N. Lawded]

Okay, first, apologies for mentioning the blog...my bad.

I guess what I wanted to convey to 0Ls is that right now a JD is not a useful degree to have if one expects it to automatically open doors--especially if the reasoning is that a JD is "versatile" and will be valuable in a variety of non-legal careers.

You want alternatives to law school? Of course, the first alternative is to simply not go. You'll save yourself three years and countless hours of tedium, anxiety, and vomiting.

This has been said before, but I suggest that before taking the plunge, you try to intern at a law firm in a field that interests you. Experience first hand what working in "the law" is actually like.

Most of the work you will do as a lawyer is repetitive and tedious. Research, writing memos and pleadings, document review...these are most of what you will be doing. You won't see the inside of a courtroom for years if you are lucky enough to land BigLaw, and the courtrooms you will see if you become a State's Attorney will be those in Traffic Court.

Another alternative is to get any kind of job you can to pay the bills and volunteer at a legal aid organization to get a sense of what goes on in the public interest field.

I know that these warnings come across as negativity, and there is an element of that, sure. But we really do have good intentions. Those of us who are from the so-called lost generation from 2008--2010 (and beyond, most likely) just don't want you all to have to learn all this the hard and expensive way. All we want to do is to let you know that the information the law schools feed you is straight up misleading. The employment stats are gamed. The scholarships you might have been offered are hard to maintain because of the wicked mandatory curve most schools use for grading.

Please just take some time to get information from a source that does not already have a vested interest in making sure you matriculate next fall--and that means the law schools, the ABA, the local bar associations, and NALP. Track down some current students at the law school you plan to attend...and not the ones that give the tours--they already drank the Kool-Aid. Find some recent graduates from the school and invite them to lunch...really engage them and find out what their job prospects are now that they are out.

It's not just the economy...the whole legal services paradigm has shifted. Jobs have been outsourced...and they are not coming back. The entire industry is contracting at the same time as the law schools are churning out ever more grads...it's simple supply and demand that there will never be enough jobs for everyone.

Just take some time and really do the research...it's all out there.

[bankruptedcasino]

What do you say to those of us who have ZERO aspirations for biglaw? Are we doomed? I know I don't want to work 80 hour weeks slaving away in some windowless office doing doc review while trying to slit the throats of my coworkers on the slim chance I make partner one day .... even IF it pays $160k per year. I'd be perfectly happy doing small firm work or even using my JD to open my own practice and build it up myself. I'm sure there are others on this site who feel the same way - even *gasp* some who attend/will attend TTT and TTTT law schools. A law degree isn't "worthless" just because you don't work at Skadden or at Wachtell representing Lehman Brothers in their bankruptcy filing.

What a law degree IS, though, is an opportunity and it is an opportunity to get what you make of it.

Two examples:

One of my best friends graduated from Western State, top 10%, and was on law review. He's doing very well. Is he the exception to the rule? Yes. Does he acknowledge this? Yes. Does he say that his education wasn't worth the price he paid? Yes. Did he say he wouldn't be where he is today if he didn't "work his a$$ off?" Yes. He's getting married and has a kid on the way. He has RESPONSIBILITIES, and wouldn't let anything stand in his way. Before he got hired at his firm, he was filing paperwork to open his own office. Noone was going to tell him he wasn't going to be able to justify his degree - including himself - because he didn't have a choice to say so.

Another friend graduated from Loyola, above median. She works for a biglaw firm in LA. She got her shot on the recommendation of a friend and became a 2L associate in competition for ONE opening with two other people (USC and UCLA law review students). How did she get the job? Did she pull a Michael Clayton and find some missing piece of evidence in discovery to be thrown in the shredder so UNorth doesn't have to pay through the teeth in a class-action? Did she act inappropriately toward the boss? No. She worked hard. And by working "hard," I mean she was the only one of her peers that stayed after normal working hours and didn't leave until the work was done. If you were a hiring partner who would you want? The Top 25% student from Yale that watches the clock and will bolt your midlaw firm the moment someone comes along and offers him something better so he can justify his "Yale pedigree," or the associate who recognizes that you stay until the work is done and is intensely loyal to you and the work you're doing?

Life isn't easy. Seven years in the workforce will teach you that. You have to earn your way, and the only way I know how to do so is through good old-fashioned hard work.

/soapbox

[Locke N. Lawded]

What do you say to those of us who have ZERO aspirations for biglaw? Are we doomed? I know I don't want to work 80 hour weeks slaving away in some windowless office doing doc review while trying to slit the throats of my coworkers on the slim chance I make partner one day .... even IF it pays $160k per year. I'd be perfectly happy doing small firm work or even using my JD to open my own practice and build it up myself. I'm sure there are others on this site who feel the same way - even *gasp* some who attend/will attend TTT and TTTT law schools. A law degree isn't "worthless" just because you don't work at Skadden or at Wachtell representing Lehman Brothers in their bankruptcy filing.

What a law degree IS, though, is an opportunity and it is an opportunity to get what you make of it.

/soapbox

I agree wholeheartedly that a law degree is what you make of it. However, hard work, determination, and chutzpah are not enough nowadays. I am not just addressing BigLaw aspirants, but all soon-to-matriculate students from T-14 to TTTT.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the 80-hour weeks are not just for BigLaw anymore. The lower-tier graduates you mention, if they are lucky enough to land a non-doc review gig, are doing personal injury or insurance defense for $50K if they're lucky, and they are working BigLaw hours too.

I am not arguing that the degree is worthless, just that it is not as valuable as it used to be simply because there are so many law grads out there. What I am saying is that the entire law school industrial complex is not a level playing field for students in that you are not getting accurate information about what your job prospects coming out of school are.

If you are happy making $10-15/hour doing document review despite the fact that it took you three years, over $100K, and the bar exam to have the "opportunity" then that is great. Most of us are, understandably, unhappy that we mortgaged our futures based upon misleading statistics and glossy brochures.

Check out what the CA Bar President had to say about the current situation just today:

--LinkRemoved--

[BigFatPanda]

Okay, first, apologies for mentioning the blog...my bad.

I guess what I wanted to convey to 0Ls is that right now a JD is not a useful degree to have if one expects it to automatically open doors--especially if the reasoning is that a JD is "versatile" and will be valuable in a variety of non-legal careers.

You want alternatives to law school? Of course, the first alternative is to simply not go. You'll save yourself three years and countless hours of tedium, anxiety, and vomiting.

This has been said before, but I suggest that before taking the plunge, you try to intern at a law firm in a field that interests you. Experience first hand what working in "the law" is actually like.

Most of the work you will do as a lawyer is repetitive and tedious. Research, writing memos and pleadings, document review...these are most of what you will be doing. You won't see the inside of a courtroom for years if you are lucky enough to land BigLaw, and the courtrooms you will see if you become a State's Attorney will be those in Traffic Court.

Another alternative is to get any kind of job you can to pay the bills and volunteer at a legal aid organization to get a sense of what goes on in the public interest field.

I know that these warnings come across as negativity, and there is an element of that, sure. But we really do have good intentions. Those of us who are from the so-called lost generation from 2008--2010 (and beyond, most likely) just don't want you all to have to learn all this the hard and expensive way. All we want to do is to let you know that the information the law schools feed you is straight up misleading. The employment stats are gamed. The scholarships you might have been offered are hard to maintain because of the wicked mandatory curve most schools use for grading.

Please just take some time to get information from a source that does not already have a vested interest in making sure you matriculate next fall--and that means the law schools, the ABA, the local bar associations, and NALP. Track down some current students at the law school you plan to attend...and not the ones that give the tours--they already drank the Kool-Aid. Find some recent graduates from the school and invite them to lunch...really engage them and find out what their job prospects are now that they are out.

It's not just the economy...the whole legal services paradigm has shifted. Jobs have been outsourced...and they are not coming back. The entire industry is contracting at the same time as the law schools are churning out ever more grads...it's simple supply and demand that there will never be enough jobs for everyone.

Just take some time and really do the research...it's all out there.

I remember the latest Simpsons where Moe became a judge on American Idol and Simon Cowell gave him some "good" advice. Very well done sir, in your effort to (eliminate / sabotage / [plug in your preference]) potential competitions in an otherwise hyper saturated market.

[UFMatt]

What a law degree IS, though, is an opportunity and it is an opportunity to get what you make of it.

...

Life isn't easy. Seven years in the workforce will teach you that. You have to earn your way, and the only way I know how to do so is through good old-fashioned hard work.

/soapbox

Great post. Reminded me of that speech from Rocky Balboa where he tells his son to nut up.

Life is hard. With few exceptions, a person has to bust their ass to get ahead. I also call BS/flame on the OP.

[Rock Chalk]

.

[Rock Chalk]

.

[09042014]

I am a TTT grad...

No you're not. You're a troll.

Anyone else suspicious that TTTGrad, Locke N. Lawded, and WhoIsJohnGalt are the same person/troll?

I do not believe they are, nor do their IP addresses indicate any likelihood of that.

They're at least a team. Way too consistent and trollish, out of the blue.

Probably a JDU raid.

Here is what I don't understand, things are really fucking bad for legal hiring. Why exaggerate even more than it is?

[savesthedayajb]

Can someone make an optimistic, yet realistic thread? Is that realistic?

[Locke N. Lawded]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak.

The fact that the mainstream media is starting to pick up the story about the problems for recent law grads is actually an optimistic sign that within a the next couple years fewer college grads will enroll in law school for lack of something better to do.

Blind optimism is what got a lot of us into the current mess.

The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

[09042014]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak...


...The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

It's not changing. The outcome for most law students has always been poor. The big law model survived the recession and will continue on. The legal market is smaller, but not fundamentally different. Most of the big firms stayed extremely profitable, even during a horrible economy.

[Dead Ringer]

Absolutely no one I know coming out of 3L right now at one of CCN is going to starve. Even the kids that got thrown under the bus by a firm after 2L or struck out at OCI have something lined up that will pay the bills comfortably and seem happy to take fewer hours for less money. Just debunking one of the contentions in this thread (only HYS or you are fucked).

[TTTGrad]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak...


...The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

It's not changing. The outcome for most law students has always been poor. The big law model survived the recession and will continue on. The legal market is smaller, but not fundamentally different. Most of the big firms stayed extremely profitable, even during a horrible economy.

Perhaps you care to officially offer a rebuttal to the CA Bar President's recent message to practicing attorneys (although you are an unsuspecting OL, you are welcome to read):

--LinkRemoved--

[Always Credited]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak.

The fact that the mainstream media is starting to pick up the story about the problems for recent law grads is actually an optimistic sign that within a the next couple years fewer college grads will enroll in law school for lack of something better to do.

Blind optimism is what got a lot of us into the current mess.

The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

This holds true for the majority of law students in general, since the majority of law schools do not offer good opportunities. Out of ~180 schools, perhaps 30-40 are worth attending under a variety of circumstances. Your opinion may vary, but this is what my own research suggests. My independent studies also indicate that the vast majority of T30 graduates (some schools not so much, some schools much more so) will be absolutely fine in the long run.

I have concrete information from a multitude of firms in locations spread across the country showing hiring trends from the T30 pre-ITE as well as ITE. The numbers change, but not drastically. If you choose your school wisely based on your own personal goals, investigate their statistics accordingly for your own areas on interest, and do something besides pray for a job at OCI, you'll be a-OK barring several factors contingent to any area of business (incredibly out of shape, ugly, terrible personality, ect).

I have proof that puts the odds in my favor for what I need to accomplish. And I'll trust my own research before I trust some shithead on the internet telling me I've got it all wrong - 'cause I don't. For other people's situations? I have no idea, and I don't really care. But personal research will shed much more light on any major decision than the anonymous advice of an internet forum ever will.

[bankruptedcasino]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak.

The fact that the mainstream media is starting to pick up the story about the problems for recent law grads is actually an optimistic sign that within a the next couple years fewer college grads will enroll in law school for lack of something better to do.

Blind optimism is what got a lot of us into the current mess.

The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

The outlook in every industry is bleak. This recession has required a systemic, top-down redesign in every profession. That's what severe recessions / depressions will do to business.

Most of us are, understandably, unhappy that we mortgaged our futures based upon misleading statistics and glossy brochures.

I may definitely feel this way when I graduate from law school and stare into the abyss, so your reaction is credited.

However, I would encourage those who are graduated law students that might be feeling a little jaded to stick with it. In every list of the top 10 paying professions in the United States, lawyer is always on the list. And spare me the discussion of the "bimodal distribution of associate salaries" because I've seen it. What I'm talking about is 20 and 30 years down the line. In your prime earning years (50 to 60 years of age), you will be far ahead of your peers if you've stuck with the profession. ALL the attorneys I know over 50 are raking in the dough. You just have to sacrifice a little luxury in your first associate years to pay for it.

But believe me, not every profession is this way. Go to salary.com - look at the average income for a 20 year attorney. Now look at the average income for a 20 year bank teller.

I would argue that you have not mortgaged your future, but instead placed a large investment at the beginning of your life in order to make an income that is, on average, $100k to $200k above the peers in your age group later in life.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak...


...The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

It's not changing. The outcome for most law students has always been poor. The big law model survived the recession and will continue on. The legal market is smaller, but not fundamentally different. Most of the big firms stayed extremely profitable, even during a horrible economy.

First of all, I can assure you that I'm just me. I just think that it's an interesting discussion that a lot of people here seem very uncomfortable having. I guess that's fine. As I mentioned earlier, optimism bias, positive illusions, etc.

How did most of the big firms stay extremely profitable during a horrible economy? By laying off massive amounts of attorneys and scaling back hiring. I think that's the entire point. A smaller legal market = less opportunities, especially when more and more people are flooding it.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak.

The fact that the mainstream media is starting to pick up the story about the problems for recent law grads is actually an optimistic sign that within a the next couple years fewer college grads will enroll in law school for lack of something better to do.

Blind optimism is what got a lot of us into the current mess.

The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

The outlook in every industry is bleak. This recession has required a systemic, top-down redesign in every profession. That's what severe recessions / depressions will do to business.

Most of us are, understandably, unhappy that we mortgaged our futures based upon misleading statistics and glossy brochures.

I may definitely feel this way when I graduate from law school and stare into the abyss, so your reaction is credited.

However, I would encourage those who are graduated law students that might be feeling a little jaded to stick with it. In every list of the top 10 paying professions in the United States, lawyer is always on the list. And spare me the discussion of the "bimodal distribution of associate salaries" because I've seen it. What I'm talking about is 20 and 30 years down the line. In your prime earning years (50 to 60 years of age), you will be far ahead of your peers if you've stuck with the profession. ALL the attorneys I know over 50 are raking in the dough. You just have to sacrifice a little luxury in your first associate years to pay for it.

But believe me, not every profession is this way. Go to salary.com - look at the average income for a 20 year attorney. Now look at the average income for a 20 year bank teller.

I would argue that you have not mortgaged your future, but instead placed a large investment at the beginning of your life in order to make an income that is, on average, $100k to $200k above the peers in your age group later in life.

I don't understand why people can't see this. Yes, the attorneys you know over 50 are raking in the dough... they're from a different era. Those are the guys that went to law school when it cost $1200 bucks a semester.

Edited: Just to be fair: The point of view that I'm approaching this from is someone who has been accepted and withdrawn from all schools for the time being. I'm on a few wait lists but I didn't get enough money to personally justify the decision.

[Always Credited]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak...


...The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

It's not changing. The outcome for most law students has always been poor. The big law model survived the recession and will continue on. The legal market is smaller, but not fundamentally different. Most of the big firms stayed extremely profitable, even during a horrible economy.

First of all, I can assure you that I'm just me. I just think that it's an interesting discussion that a lot of people here seem very uncomfortable having. I guess that's fine. As I mentioned earlier, optimism bias, positive illusions, etc.

How did most of the big firms stay extremely profitable during a horrible economy? By laying off massive amounts of attorneys and scaling back hiring. I think that's the entire point. A smaller legal market = less opportunities, especially when more and more people are flooding it.

TTT grads are not stealing jobs from T30 students or especially T14 students. Those schools are still doing relatively well, and any employment hits taken have been caused by the economy as a whole - you can't possibly expect that the legal industry would be 100% insulated from a downturn that has affected every industry in the country.

TT-TTTT grads will have a MUCH tougher time - but to insinuate that the top schools will have unemployment skyrocketing because TTT's are clogging the market is ridiculous. The T30 as a whole may have slightly increased class sizes, but not to such an extent that they will substantially saturate the market.

This is not to say that the market is not saturated as a whole, however; the top schools are simply much better protected against the saturation.

[09042014]

Here's the thing, it's hard to be optimistic when the general outlook for our industry is so bleak...


...The industry is changing, there is no denying this. This is a fact. It's not just the economy.

It's not changing. The outcome for most law students has always been poor. The big law model survived the recession and will continue on. The legal market is smaller, but not fundamentally different. Most of the big firms stayed extremely profitable, even during a horrible economy.

First of all, I can assure you that I'm just me. I just think that it's an interesting discussion that a lot of people here seem very uncomfortable having. I guess that's fine. As I mentioned earlier, optimism bias, positive illusions, etc.

How did most of the big firms stay extremely profitable during a horrible economy? By laying off massive amounts of attorneys and scaling back hiring. I think that's the entire point. A smaller legal market = less opportunities, especially when more and more people are flooding it.

I am not in any way denying there is less opportunity. The legal market is horrible, but the Cravath model has not failed, it succeeded. Firms just need less associates because the workload is smaller. This makes getting a big firm job harder, but that isn't the same as saying the law market is restructuring or failing. Firms did the same thing every business entity does when their revenue drops from lack of demand, lay offs. When demand returns so will hiring. The model works fine. Unless you impose some ridiculous restriction like not allowing lay offs.

T14 schools have seen a 33-40% reduction in big law hiring, some t30 schools worse than that. But you never had a decent shot at big law below that. People were fucked even when the market boomed.

[romothesavior]

I have concrete information from a multitude of firms in locations spread across the country showing hiring trends from the T30 pre-ITE as well as ITE. The numbers change, but not drastically. If you choose your school wisely based on your own personal goals, investigate their statistics accordingly for your own areas on interest, and do something besides pray for a job at OCI, you'll be a-OK barring several factors contingent to any area of business (incredibly out of shape, ugly, terrible personality, ect).

Maybe one of the best paragraphs I've ever read on this site. I cannot give a big enough +1 to this. Everything I have heard from practicing attorneys, everything I have read and studied all support this notion. You need to go into LS with a clear picture of what you want and why you want it, and more importantly, you need to have a gameplan for achieving it via a combination of networking, grades, and some more networking. (I'm starting to sound like Matthies here, but I think he is so right, and his opinion on this has been supported by a lot of people in the field that I've talked to.)

I am going to a school that most of you anti-law school folks would say makes me "screwed." But I did exactly what AC just said: I picked my school based on personal goals. I took a sizeable scholarship at the best school in the city I most want to practice in, and I am going to bust my butt both inside and outside the classroom to make sure I find meaningful employment. I am going to join the local Inns of Court, the local ABA, and take advantage of every networking opportunity I can, and I'm going to show very early on that I want to be in that market. Am I going to Yale? No I'm not. But I picked a school that can and should help me accomplish my end goal, and if you think that is a poor decision, then I really don't know what to say to you.

[T14_Scholly]

Funny that so many got defensive in response to TTTGrad. Respect your elders, kids.

[WhoIsJohnGalt]

TTT grads are not stealing jobs from T30 students or especially T14 students. Those schools are still doing relatively well, and any employment hits taken have been caused by the economy as a whole - you can't possibly expect that the legal industry would be 100% insulated from a downturn that has affected every industry in the country.

TT-TTTT grads will have a MUCH tougher time - but to insinuate that the top schools will have unemployment skyrocketing because TTT's are clogging the market is ridiculous. The T30 as a whole may have slightly increased class sizes, but not to such an extent that they will substantially saturate the market.

This is not to say that the market is not saturated as a whole, however; the top schools are simply much better protected against the saturation.

From a recent article I read:

Northwestern typically places about 70% of its graduates at the nation's largest 250 firms, where starting salaries often soften the debt burden. But with law firms cutting salaries and hiring fewer graduates last year because of the economy, Northwestern sent just 55.9% of its 2009 graduates to the largest firms, according to the National Law Journal.

A 15% decrease in placement in the NLJ250 is significant. Regardless of what happens in TT-TTTT, what was good enough a few years ago at NW to grab these jobs is no longer good enough in many cases.