Top Law Schools

0LNewbie wrote:Just wanted to drop in to say, good luck to all of you this week.

Thank you sir

2L cynicism and pessimism... engaged

romothesavior wrote:2L cynicism and pessimism... engaged

it'll be fine man. keep your chin up, but at the same time keep your nose to the grindstone and hustle.hard.
I think we should have a thread for wustl CB/Offers where people can provide insight as to what has worked for them (if it doesn't already exist). I don't know how that would go over at our school though. I know there is sometimes some resentment toward people that have things wrapped up.

romothesavior wrote:2L cynicism and pessimism... engaged

Great.

Breaking news:

The legal market is shitty. Especially everywhere. It's less shitty in NYC/Boston, but it's still shitty. It's not going to recover fast enough to justify law school tuition.

JCougar wrote:Breaking old news:

The legal market is shitty. Especially everywhere. It's less shitty in NYC/Boston, but it's still shitty. It's not going to recover fast enough to justify law school tuition.

There is definitely a breaking point where the possibility of making as much/more money in another field clashes with staying in school and paying for two more years and wanting to be a lawyer. It's sad that the cost of education is probably going to bust in the near future, at least WSJ had an article on that, and the people in school now are bearing the brunt of recession/insane tuition costs.

Realization of prospects aside, good luck to everyone whustlin' for that job.

Probably going to rob banks to pay off my law school debt, so Crim law should be of some benefit.

deebs wrote:

JCougar wrote:Breaking old news:

The legal market is shitty. Especially everywhere. It's less shitty in NYC/Boston, but it's still shitty. It's not going to recover fast enough to justify law school tuition.

There is definitely a breaking point where the possibility of making as much/more money in another field clashes with staying in school and paying for two more years and wanting to be a lawyer. It's sad that the cost of education is probably going to bust in the near future, at least WSJ had an article on that, and the people in school now are bearing the brunt of recession/insane tuition costs.

Realization of prospects aside, good luck to everyone whustlin' for that job.

Yea.

I was being sarcastic as usual.

You'd think it would at least be a little bit easier, what with what seems half of the top 10% or so transferring up. I know one went to Y, one went to H, one Chicago, one NYU, one Penn, one Virginia, two NU...and that's only the people I know about.

I think it's about time to come to the conclusion that Biglaw as we know it is never coming back to the old days of hiring a shitload of people and seeing who sticks it out. Everyone outside of NYC is looking for home market connections and longevity, and is outsourcing the kind of work that first year associates used to spend a lot of time doing, such as doc review. And the longer associates stick around, the less Biglaw is going to hire replacements. Plus, who even wants to bounce from Biglaw when the exit options are so shitty?

It's just a shame that it's going to take law school tuition 5 more years to adapt. Schools are still raising their tuition as we speak, based on still-inflated starting salary statistics of many years past.

JCougar wrote:

deebs wrote:

JCougar wrote:Breaking old news:

The legal market is shitty. Especially everywhere. It's less shitty in NYC/Boston, but it's still shitty. It's not going to recover fast enough to justify law school tuition.

There is definitely a breaking point where the possibility of making as much/more money in another field clashes with staying in school and paying for two more years and wanting to be a lawyer. It's sad that the cost of education is probably going to bust in the near future, at least WSJ had an article on that, and the people in school now are bearing the brunt of recession/insane tuition costs.

Realization of prospects aside, good luck to everyone whustlin' for that job.

Yea.

I was being sarcastic as usual.

You'd think it would at least be a little bit easier, what with what seems half of the top 10% or so transferring up. I know one went to Y, one went to H, one Chicago, one NYU, one Penn, one Virginia, two NU...and that's only the people I know about.

I think it's about time to come to the conclusion that Biglaw as we know it is never coming back to the old days of hiring a shitload of people and seeing who sticks it out. Everyone outside of NYC is looking for home market connections and longevity, and is outsourcing the kind of work that first year associates used to spend a lot of time doing, such as doc review. And the longer associates stick around, the less Biglaw is going to hire replacements. Plus, who even wants to bounce from Biglaw when the exit options are so shitty?

It's just a shame that it's going to take law school tuition 5 more years to adapt. Schools are still raising their tuition as we speak, based on still-inflated starting salary statistics of many years past.

You are being way too pessimistic here. And some of what you said just is too reaching and not broadly applicable. I chalk it up to frustration, but c'mon, ya gotta keep at it man.

fl0w wrote:

JCougar wrote:

deebs wrote:

JCougar wrote:Breaking old news:

The legal market is shitty. Especially everywhere. It's less shitty in NYC/Boston, but it's still shitty. It's not going to recover fast enough to justify law school tuition.

There is definitely a breaking point where the possibility of making as much/more money in another field clashes with staying in school and paying for two more years and wanting to be a lawyer. It's sad that the cost of education is probably going to bust in the near future, at least WSJ had an article on that, and the people in school now are bearing the brunt of recession/insane tuition costs.

Realization of prospects aside, good luck to everyone whustlin' for that job.

Yea.

I was being sarcastic as usual.

You'd think it would at least be a little bit easier, what with what seems half of the top 10% or so transferring up. I know one went to Y, one went to H, one Chicago, one NYU, one Penn, one Virginia, two NU...and that's only the people I know about.

I think it's about time to come to the conclusion that Biglaw as we know it is never coming back to the old days of hiring a shitload of people and seeing who sticks it out. Everyone outside of NYC is looking for home market connections and longevity, and is outsourcing the kind of work that first year associates used to spend a lot of time doing, such as doc review. And the longer associates stick around, the less Biglaw is going to hire replacements. Plus, who even wants to bounce from Biglaw when the exit options are so shitty?

It's just a shame that it's going to take law school tuition 5 more years to adapt. Schools are still raising their tuition as we speak, based on still-inflated starting salary statistics of many years past.

You are being way too pessimistic here. And some of what you said just is too reaching and not broadly applicable. I chalk it up to frustration, but c'mon, ya gotta keep at it man.

That's not really pessimistic. After the economic crash, clients started questioning how efficient the legal services were. Biglaw was an incredibly wasteful and inefficient model. Who wants to pay $300/hour for someone straight out of law school that isn't even interested in working for the firm past 3 years? Biglaw is responding by hiring people they think are going to stick around longer, which is why home market connections are so important. Associates are more likely to stick around in their home market. And of course, this means less new spots opening up.

My home market and St. Louis are barely hiring anyone right now. Some firms don't even have a summer program. Luckily I have some decent connections to another major market. But I don't know if that is even enough.

I think jcougar is pessimistic, but also pretty spot on. I don't see how anyone could really argue with his assessment. Firms that used to take 25 now take 10. Firms that used to take 50 now take 20. Firms that once considered students outside the top 10% at WUSTL are barely even considering our students anymore. Things are especially brutal in the Midwest, and they certainly are not coming back anytime soon. What is so controversial about that? Without top 20-25% grades, you better bring something big to the table (strong work experience, diversity, strong firm connections, IP, etc.), or you have very little shot at a biglaw job coming from WUSTL.

Then again, this really isn't THAT different than 4-5 years ago. Instead of top 20% being fairly safe, now only the top 10% or so are safe. Instead of only the top 1/3 having a decent shot at biglaw, now only the top 25% have that shot. For the majority of the class, biglaw opportunities are the same at WUSTL now as they were pre-ITE.

Will most of us find a job? Certainly, I think we will. But will a lot of those jobs justify the debt? I don't think so, and I think that is jcougar's point: law school tuition is outrageous when you consider the job prospects. That really isn't a controversial or novel idea. So at the end of the day, prospective students had better have a solid scholarship, or go to an elite school. And no one should even consider law school unless they really want to be a lawyer.

Our school is only currently placing 20 percent in NLJ250, I bet we place a bit more into Big/Midlaw, but still, the majority of the class will not find a job until after graduation. A huge majority will strike out at OCI. It's just like 90 percent cannot be in the top 10 percent of class, no mater how hard/smart they work.

I'm glad some people have offers and now seeing the world through rose colored glasses, but still, things are and will be bleak for a while. There is only so much hustlin/wustlin we can do.

a true hustler never says die.

hell yeah things effing suck right now. doesn't change that we have to keep wustlin'

fl0w wrote:a true hustler never says die.

hell yeah things effing suck right now. doesn't change that we have to keep wustlin'

We are. I have wustled my ass off all year, and have networked like a fiend. My goal this summer was to make at least one contact at every firm I'm applying to in town, and I'd say I've done a pretty good job. Most of my friends have taken a similar approach. "Hustle more" is really not fair advice given what we are going through. We are doing the best we can.

romothesavior wrote:

fl0w wrote:a true hustler never says die.

hell yeah things effing suck right now. doesn't change that we have to keep wustlin'

We are. I have wustled my ass off all year, and have networked like a fiend. My goal this summer was to make at least one contact at every firm I'm applying to in town, and I'd say I've done a pretty good job. Most of my friends have taken a similar approach. "Hustle more" is really not fair advice given what we are going through. We are doing the best we can.

I'm not so much saying "hustle more" as I am saying "don't give up." We're doing the right things with all the hitting the pavement and such and the results will come if we really put the work in. It's a fake it till you make it kind of thing. Can't let the fear of not getting a job in this market be a self fulfilling prophecy in that such a fear comes across in interactions and prevents you from getting a job in this market. Fake confidence -> good results -> real confidence -> profit.

But on the interwebz we like to tout gloom and doom and commiserate. I get it. Things are bad, but can't control it. We can only control what we do about it.

fl0w wrote:

romothesavior wrote:2L cynicism and pessimism... engaged

it'll be fine man. keep your chin up, but at the same time keep your nose to the grindstone and hustle.hard.
I think we should have a thread for wustl CB/Offers where people can provide insight as to what has worked for them (if it doesn't already exist). I don't know how that would go over at our school though. I know there is sometimes some resentment toward people that have things wrapped up.

I think this is a decent idea. It's not necessarily announcing that you received a CB, but would be helpful in general.

Anybody have any luck with OCI? I'd like to hear some positive outcomes... brighten my day....

i only know of 2 washu kids who have gotten offers....i myself am far away from that.....still sleeping next to my phone hoping to get a callback invitations from firms i've interviewed with...i'm pretty sure i need to take a chill pill

crickets...

I know of 15+ people with offers, most of them are keeping it quiet to be respectful of those who are still looking.

So maybe this will make people smile (maybe especially those that got mad at me for posting things previously..karma..etc...)

I was out at the annex this past weekend and was walking toward the door and all of a sudden a dude swings at me. Barely misses my face. Turns out he was swinging at the guy on the other side of me. He hits him. Then a random 3rd guy smashes a glass over the first guy's head. Blood is everywhere.

Best part? I'm wearing a white track jacket. Covered in blood.
Spent 2hrs on saturday cleaning strange blood from my precious white track jacket.

classy place.

fl0w wrote:So maybe this will make people smile (maybe especially those that got mad at me for posting things previously..karma..etc...)

I was out at the annex this past weekend and was walking toward the door and all of a sudden a dude swings at me. Barely misses my face. Turns out he was swinging at the guy on the other side of me. He hits him. Then a random 3rd guy smashes a glass over the first guy's head. Blood is everywhere.

Best part? I'm wearing a white track jacket. Covered in blood.
Spent 2hrs on saturday cleaning strange blood from my precious white track jacket.

classy place.

Sounds par for the course for that place, she-who-must-not-be-named almost got me involved in a brawl there last year (we, but mostly she, were ejected later for semi-related reasons). I've seen some ridiculous stuff there, glad I managed to make my way out before that went down. Sorry about your jacket/Saturday man

haha, it happens.

So strat.. you gotta get me in on this new crowd you rollin' with. I'm not going to let you forget. hook a brotha up.

fl0w wrote:haha, it happens.

So strat.. you gotta get me in on this new crowd you rollin' with. I'm not going to let you forget. hook a brotha up.

For sure, may take time to make headway though. Slight difference in workloads and all that

LOL. There's a posting on our job board for Cincinnati midlaw. They want top 10% of course. They'll probably get it, too, ITE.