T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome) Forum

[amped]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

Again, +1. OP, sorry about the ignorant 0L's.

[raveler]

I don't know who OP actually IS, but what he's saying is, I assure you, not flame.

I'm at a T10 doing recruiting as a transfer from a pretty good school, and I'm doing relatively well.

I can tell you, that you know nothing until you actually get there and are doing interviews and seeing not only the response you're getting but also that of your classmates. It really is that bad.

[D. H2Oman]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

This is a fair point, he/she may very well not be. The way is was written, not really what is being said, makes me skeptical, just a gut feeling. If I'm wrong than my apology

[chikalicious]

OP's comments are definitely legit. This isn't JDU bs. T10 isn't the joyride that it used to be. If you don't get that, you're delusional. I'm going to law school because I want to become a lawyer. The economy makes me wary (and weary!), but it doesn't change the substance and long term value of a T10 JD from my perspective. Right now, sitting tight at a T10 post orientation, I'm looking forward to learning from my profs and peers. The road will be rough but I'm sticking with it because there's nothing else I'd rather do.

[wraaaa]

I posted this in another thread, but I will repeat it here for the OP: Go Fuck yourself

lol some of you people are in such denial. its pathetic

[Anonymous User]

Well, I am also a 3L at a T10 school and 100% disagree with what the OP is saying. It definitely isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Sure it isn't what it was a couple years ago but going to a Top 10 school is still a pretty safe bet (however, it is not risk free).

Also, I would like to add that Above the Law is one of the most depressing sites out there and from what they report about things like my school and the firm I worked at this summer highly inaccurate. They are out there to get as many hits and possible and they know how to do that. Be as negative as possible with the news.

Anyways, best of luck to everybody. This isn't the first economic downturn and like all of the previous ones there will be an end.

[Anonymous User]

Well, I am also a 3L at a T10 school and 100% disagree with what the OP is saying. It definitely isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Sure it isn't what it was a couple years ago but going to a Top 10 school is still a pretty safe bet (however, it is not risk free).

Also, I would like to add that Above the Law is one of the most depressing sites out there and from what they report about things like my school and the firm I worked at this summer highly inaccurate. They are out there to get as many hits and possible and they know how to do that. Be as negative as possible with the news.

Anyways, best of luck to everybody. This isn't the first economic downturn and like all of the previous ones there will be an end.

Yay! Everything *IS* going to be okay after all. I was worried for a minute.

[02082010]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

This is a fair point, he/she may very well not be. The way is was written, not really what is being said, makes me skeptical, just a gut feeling. If I'm wrong than my apology

The way this was written makes me skeptical that you are literate.

[Anonymous User]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

This is a fair point, he/she may very well not be. The way is was written, not really what is being said, makes me skeptical, just a gut feeling. If I'm wrong than my apology

If you spend enough time on JDU to recognize their prose... you have issues.

[D. H2Oman]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

This is a fair point, he/she may very well not be. The way is was written, not really what is being said, makes me skeptical, just a gut feeling. If I'm wrong than my apology

If you spend enough time on JDU to recognize their prose... you have issues.

It was more the use of generic information. For instance, the bimodal salary chart that has been posted many times.

[Anonymous User]

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.

This is a fair point, he/she may very well not be. The way is was written, not really what is being said, makes me skeptical, just a gut feeling. If I'm wrong than my apology

If you spend enough time on JDU to recognize their prose... you have issues.

It was more the use of generic information. For instance, the bimodal salary chart that has been posted many times.

So what do you think of that chart?

[Helmholtz]

People are still posting the 2007 NALP salary distribution chart for whatever reason. Here's 2008:

[D. H2Oman]

I'm not saying I don't believe in the chart. I absolutely do, I just thought that using generic info like this wouldn't result in someone deciding to post as "the anonymous user". It looks like the consensus is that I was wrong. (Also an illiterate douchebag) It's been a rough thread.

Damn you a'nold, I wasn't even going to post until you called flame.

[98234872348]

.

[D. H2Oman]

LOL looks like they deleted your post where you told the OP to go F himself, and he replied saying peace out.

Well in my defense, that wasn't me...and it's still up.

[rms5005]

To add my 2 cents, i go to a top 10 school and I'm probably right around top 1/3. It is REALLY tough right now. If youre below median, youre totally screwed. If youre between top 1/2 and top 1/3, dont expect to get more than 0-2 callbacks. Top 20%ish seem to be doing really well but theyre basically getting all the callbacks, leaving very few for anybody else. I'm not sure how OCI will play out this year, if maybe there will be the initial round of callbacks and then another 2 weeks later (since the top 20% can only accept 1 offer), but the economy truly is as bad as people say it is right now. If youre applying to law school and want to do big law, consider the odds of getting into a t14 and then the odds of being top 20%. You better make sure you wanna be a lawyer real bad.

[Anonymous User]

I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.

The economy is shit= new viewpoint. Got it.

You sound like an enormous douchebag. Seriously.

Oh no

lol look @ his avatar.

[toaster2]

.

[M51]

One myth that seems like a common misconception that I think needs to be dispelled is that there is a tier of mid-level jobs between biglaw and $40k/yr. Make no mistake, there is not. The salary distribution for lawyers is bi-modal, see here for a graphical depiction of the class of 2007 starting salaries: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... p_2007.gif The notion that "I'll get something, even if it isn't big law or $160k/yr, I'll get something that is good enough. I don't need such a big inflated salary" is horribly misguided. The reality is that anything is hard to come by right now, even volunteer or public interest positions.

This is bs. NALP the law firms in secondary markets that pay 100k-145k (and plenty of non-NALP firms are around too). I'm not saying it's a booming/hiring industry, but there are plenty of sub 160k law firms outside of the major markets... and they generally have almost no T14 associates. Your friends just aren't harassing the right people for jobs. No, they're not going to show up at HLS OCI, but if you send them your resume, follow it up with 2 phone calls and your writing sample.... they'll take notice.

What you do with your T14 degree in the making is your problem, but don't go around saying these jobs don't exist. Even the taxprof graph shows that there IS a tier of “mid-level” (mid salary) jobs between 160k and 40k. Just because it's not the ridiculous # of 160k or 40k jobs doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It may be less in #, but it also has less competition, because most people like your friends don't take the time to go out and find them.

[Anonymous User]

"follow it up with 2 phone calls and your writing sample..."

Sorry to go off topic, but just curious why 2 phone calls. One to see if it was received and if they want any additional info, and another to make sure writing sample was received?

[waahrus]

To add my 2 cents, i go to a top 10 school and I'm probably right around top 1/3. It is REALLY tough right now. If youre below median, youre totally screwed. If youre between top 1/2 and top 1/3, dont expect to get more than 0-2 callbacks. Top 20%ish seem to be doing really well but theyre basically getting all the callbacks, leaving very few for anybody else. I'm not sure how OCI will play out this year, if maybe there will be the initial round of callbacks and then another 2 weeks later (since the top 20% can only accept 1 offer), but the economy truly is as bad as people say it is right now. If youre applying to law school and want to do big law, consider the odds of getting into a t14 and then the odds of being top 20%. You better make sure you wanna be a lawyer real bad.

Obviously OCI is going to be a more drawn out process this year. The firms know how many people they want to hire, and they are aware that students know there are fewer jobs to go around so their SA yield will increase. It's pretty silly for you to be spreading unsubstantiated doom and gloom claims about needing top 20% at T14 for biglaw. Let this process play out over the next month or so and then reevaluate your attitude.

whoa. chill the fuck out man. rms is just sharing his experience and the prevailing sentiment at a T10 school. i don't think it's silly at all to be worried if you're outside the top 20% at a T14 right now. i have friends slightly above median at my T10 who are definitely freaked out. some have 0 callbacks. don't forget we're talking about IN THIS ECONOMY. i'm not all that certain that firms have some set target of people they want to hire. it could very well be that they prefer less, and will be happy to get less. if i'm class of 2012, i would be worried and would appreciate the reality check.

[M_Cool]

Obviously OCI is going to be a more drawn out process this year. The firms know how many people they want to hire, and they are aware that students know there are fewer jobs to go around so their SA yield will increase. It's pretty silly for you to be spreading unsubstantiated doom and gloom claims about needing top 20% at T14 for biglaw. Let this process play out over the next month or so and then reevaluate your attitude.

Uh, not really. Almost everyone I know that didn't get callbacks has gotten rejections from 90% of the firms they interviewed with. People at CCN median are struggling to even get a callback. What do you think that means for DNCG?

There are less than half the jobs available from last year. Say it with me again. LESS THAN HALF. It's simple math.

[whyamihere]

It kind of seems to me that success in OCI now depends a lot more on your class rank than on your school (assuming we're talking T14). From what people are reporting, below median ANYWHERE is having trouble, so it doesn't matter if you're from DCNG (maybe GULC is hurting a bit more from being so far down the food chain and having such a huge class size). ITE, I'd rather be top 30% at Duke than top 40% at CCN, is what I'm trying to say. I might even go as far as to say I'd rather be just above median at Duke than just below median at Harvard. Again, we'll need to let OCI play out before making final conclusions, but it really does seem like (out of the T14 schools) your grades matter way more than the rank of your school.

[bigben]

I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.

The economy is shit= new viewpoint. Got it.

Lol, no. The basic points being made here were 90% as bad before the economy tanked. It's just that now the bar for making a salary above the 40k range (i.e. biglaw, midlaw) just got even higher.

[XxSpyKEx]

Obviously OCI is going to be a more drawn out process this year. The firms know how many people they want to hire, and they are aware that students know there are fewer jobs to go around so their SA yield will increase. It's pretty silly for you to be spreading unsubstantiated doom and gloom claims about needing top 20% at T14 for biglaw. Let this process play out over the next month or so and then reevaluate your attitude.

Uh, not really. Almost everyone I know that didn't get callbacks has gotten rejections from 90% of the firms they interviewed with. People at CCN median are struggling to even get a callback. What do you think that means for DNCG?

There are less than half the jobs available from last year. Say it with me again. LESS THAN HALF. It's simple math.

Actually it's substantially less then half the jobs from last year, which is scary because last year wasn't exactly a booming year (unlike 2007). I did the math for Chicago firms and about half the firms that had a summer program don't this year, and the other half that continued there program seem to have about an average of around 50-75% of their previous year class sizes (based on NALP previous and expected, who knows how accurate that is though because 5 firms I bid on, who expected a summer class, pulled out of OCI before interviews were scheduled). NY is probably a better market then Chicago right now, but still.

EDIT- so what does that mean? My prediction is that a ton of people at t14 schools will be taking jobs they typically would not, such as midlaw and non-NALP firms (i.e. firms around 50-200 attorneys). Those are firms that would in the past typically only recruit at much lower ranked schools since they just couldn't the interest at t14s. So then that means the people at the lower ranked schools are just going to be screwed altogether. One thing I hope for (although it doesn't help me much) is if the biglaw market never fully recoups (as it probably won't) is that law schools are forced to reduce tuition from the current $45-50K a year to something reasonable. But I guess that means people are going to need to be smart enough to decide "fuck this, it's not worth paying $200K for an education where I am only likely to make $70K a year at graduation."