London Expat Package Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

I remember seeing a useful post floating around for expat packages in Asia for US associates (e.g., Skadden HK $60k, K&E HK $80k, etc.), and was wondering if people have ballpark figures for what to expect in London. As a background, I'm a finance junior associate at a NYC biglaw and I've seen quite a few of my friends lateraling over to London at least partly for the COL adjustments.

Thanks,

[Anonymous User]

bump i am interested in this too. I believe my firm had $75k as of 2018. I've seen prior threads on TLS ranging up to $100k.

That being said, would love to hear more london transition experiences for associates. Assume you'd be doing a lot of 144A/Reg S offerings. Are hours worse than nyc given time difference and having to deal with bunch of local counsel on cross-boarder deals?

[Anonymous User]

DPW is 85k COLA for their London office. Understood from a recruiter that Cravath's is 85K as well.

Edit: To answer the question regarding lifestyle/work in London office - Definitely a lot more 144A/Reg S work. My experience was that the hours weren't necessarily better or worse, just more up and down (i.e., in the NY office, there's enough work and associates to keep everyone busy from morning until late evening/night every day, whereas in a smaller London office, depending on the deals, you may have days or weeks that are fairly quiet and then weeks or months of getting absolutely slammed). The one benefit with London is that your weekends are generally more free. The time difference doesn't really affect much, other than pricing and closing, as those tend to take place quite late in London due to the time difference. I would say that your day does start and end a little later, but not a huge factor.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the insight above^

What's the COLA really work out after you factor in rent in GBP and the effect of taxes. As a 3rd year associate, are you looking at a net real effective increase of like 20k or more (compared to NYC, which already has insane taxes)?

[Anonymous User]

The London offices give you a COLA as a bribe for doing trashy, high-yield capital markets work and little training. Those people get fired quickly in a downturn when demand for high yield corporate credits dries up.

You shouldn’t forget that your tax burden in Manhattan is going to be 40%-ish but more like 45% in London because the top band starts at a very low income.

London offices also hire people with terrible resumes since often well credentialed New York associates don’t want to do that work. All kinds of bad schools end up there. It is categorically not prestigious to work with those kinds of clients.

Also COLA has been on a downtrend since sterling has been so weak as of late.

[Anonymous User]

The London offices give you a COLA as a bribe for doing trashy, high-yield capital markets work and little training. Those people get fired quickly in a downturn when demand for high yield corporate credits dries up.

You shouldn’t forget that your tax burden in Manhattan is going to be 40%-ish but more like 45% in London because the top band starts at a very low income.

London offices also hire people with terrible resumes since often well credentialed New York associates don’t want to do that work. All kinds of bad schools end up there. It is categorically not prestigious to work with those kinds of clients.

Also COLA has been on a downtrend since sterling has been so weak as of late.

I'm the poster regarding DPW London office above. Disagree strongly with almost all of the above.

I did zero high-yield work during my two years of cap markets in London. DPW just doesn't do much of that work. I know some firms' London offices are mostly high yield, but that's definitely not a given. I also haven't heard of anyone being fired in years (if ever). Most of my colleagues came from top schools, or LLMs at top schools, and would still consider them some of the most intelligent people I've worked with.

In regards to take-home pay, it's WAY higher in London, and I would guess well well above 20k differnece. I was saving tons compared to what I'm saving in NY (I literally can't stress this enough...I now feel poor, where as I felt rich in London). This is for a number of reasons: (i) the tax rate ends up being fairly equal as far as I can tell; (ii) as an expat, you get to write off all of your living expenses, including rent and food...most associates have well into 5 figure tax returns each year; (iii) rent is cheaper in London - I had an amazing brand new apartment on the 40th something floor for hundreds less than the small cramped 1 bed I'm living in now; and (iv) everything is just cheaper in London, including groceries.

And just to clarify, I'm in no way a fanboy for my firm. I think all biglaw is horrible. I just think a stint in London makes sense for a number of reasons, including economically. London is also a great city, that offers a lot of the same things NY does, but with a bit more charm and access to the rest of Europe.

[RedGiant]

My time in London was 15 years ago, as an expat Legal assistant. The COLA gets adjusted (by many firms) when there are larger interest rate swings, so it's not fixed forever. A few things to consider--there is a fair amount of 144A/HY debt work. There's also general corporate governance advisory for foreign issuers in the US (debt and equity). During the time I was there, HY markets were booming (my firm's office closed 9 HY deals in three months--I was at the printer all the fricking time!). It was not my experience that eating out was cheaper in London, but groceries were generally cheaper than in NYC, and as far as rent goes, you get much more for your money in London than in NYC.

A very important consideration, IME, as to whether you go over there is what stage you're at. Junior associate work was largely simliar to NY, midlevels got much more responsibility but also their practices, by the nature of our office, were much more specialized than they would likely by in NYC at a similar stage, and senior associates got crushed over there, at least at my firm. That said, the opportunities to take real vacation were much better--much more of a Euro mentality about taking a full week off, several times a year, and since our office was very busy, there was no hours pressure related to holidays--everyone was going to hit their hours. I billed >2650 hours as a paralegal when I was over there (see all nighters at the printer, above).

I've been an expat twice in London (also did investment banking over there) and it's a fantastic experience. If you are already doing debt/bank work, I'd absolutely consider it, because your quality of life will likely (but not assuredly) be higher, and you will have amazing travel ops.

Last, of course, there's the whole cultural hilarity of working with European clients, which is always a good time. Cross-border doesn't mean so many crappy time changes when you're in Europe, and you use the very best local counsel because you do repeat deals, so the whole "international is sexy" thing is partially true--meeting clients in Paris on a Thursday can be a real thing. Other times, there's so much stupidity (weird notarized docs leap to mind) that it's mind boggling and dumb. It does add a fun little twist to what is usually pretty rote deals though. DO IT! This isn't about the 15K you'd save in taxes or COLA--it's about rounding out your resume and having an unforgettable few years.

[Anonymous User]

I worked at the London office of a biglaw firm for a year and lateraled back to NYC earlier this year. COLA was $75K. I agree with the DPW poster above - the cost of living differential is yuuuuge. I felt like there were very few apartments / restaurants / travel plans that were financially out of reach in London. Compared to NYC, that was a bizarre feeling (this is what happens when 1/2 your paycheck goes in rent). However, I was doing high-yield work - as were most other NY/US qualified lawyers in the city. High-yield work was monotonous and entirely process driven - it gets old fast. The upside is that you'll have months where you're literally twiddling your thumbs because markets are slow. Working in any practice area other than high-yield was definitely the exception not the norm. In addition, be prepared to severely limit your social life or restrict to other lawyers with COLA. The pay differential results in lots of animosity between UK lawyers and US lawyers. I was working with a 5th year UK associate on something who told me "why should I review your work if you get paid double what I do?". In addition, lateraling back to NYC wasn't easy - a lot of firms don't do high-yield work and don't need that expertise in local offices. I was told repeatedly that if you want to move back you may have to take a hit in seniority (thankfully, I avoided that by moving back within the same firm). Happy to answer any questions!

[cls123456]

I worked at the London office of a biglaw firm for a year and lateraled back to NYC earlier this year. COLA was $75K. I agree with the DPW poster above - the cost of living differential is yuuuuge. I felt like there were very few apartments / restaurants / travel plans that were financially out of reach in London. Compared to NYC, that was a bizarre feeling (this is what happens when 1/2 your paycheck goes in rent). However, I was doing high-yield work - as were most other NY/US qualified lawyers in the city. High-yield work was monotonous and entirely process driven - it gets old fast. The upside is that you'll have months where you're literally twiddling your thumbs because markets are slow. Working in any practice area other than high-yield was definitely the exception not the norm. In addition, be prepared to severely limit your social life or restrict to other lawyers with COLA. The pay differential results in lots of animosity between UK lawyers and US lawyers. I was working with a 5th year UK associate on something who told me "why should I review your work if you get paid double what I do?". In addition, lateraling back to NYC wasn't easy - a lot of firms don't do high-yield work and don't need that expertise in local offices. I was told repeatedly that if you want to move back you may have to take a hit in seniority (thankfully, I avoided that by moving back within the same firm). Happy to answer any questions!

As someone deciding what firms to gun for during OCI, where would you recommend someone start their career if money is the only thing that matters? I was eyeing cheaper markets like Charlotte, Dallas, or Houston, but London with the COLA seems very attractive (plus it might be a nicer place to live than the others!). Would it be better go to go Texas or London from a financial standpoint?

[Anonymous User]

I worked at the London office of a biglaw firm for a year and lateraled back to NYC earlier this year. COLA was $75K. I agree with the DPW poster above - the cost of living differential is yuuuuge. I felt like there were very few apartments / restaurants / travel plans that were financially out of reach in London. Compared to NYC, that was a bizarre feeling (this is what happens when 1/2 your paycheck goes in rent). However, I was doing high-yield work - as were most other NY/US qualified lawyers in the city. High-yield work was monotonous and entirely process driven - it gets old fast. The upside is that you'll have months where you're literally twiddling your thumbs because markets are slow. Working in any practice area other than high-yield was definitely the exception not the norm. In addition, be prepared to severely limit your social life or restrict to other lawyers with COLA. The pay differential results in lots of animosity between UK lawyers and US lawyers. I was working with a 5th year UK associate on something who told me "why should I review your work if you get paid double what I do?". In addition, lateraling back to NYC wasn't easy - a lot of firms don't do high-yield work and don't need that expertise in local offices. I was told repeatedly that if you want to move back you may have to take a hit in seniority (thankfully, I avoided that by moving back within the same firm). Happy to answer any questions!

Thank you for chiming in. Why did you decide to move back (sounds like you're alluding to the fact that, at least in part, you didn't enjoy the process driven nature of HY debt work. Were you pretty much churning out 144A/Reg S bond deals one after the other?

Did you start in London or move over there from NYC? How was the transition there? Did you do a lot of traveling or get to leave the office and explore the city when markets were dead? Generally, what is culture like there in terms of face time and expectations? Is NYC more demanding then London?

Could you speak to the reputation of firms in the london market?

Finally, did you use a recruiter for the move there? Doesn't sound like you used one to get back since you're at the same firm.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon poster above.

Why did you decide to move back (sounds like you're alluding to the fact that, at least in part, you didn't enjoy the process driven nature of HY debt work. Were you pretty much churning out 144A/Reg S bond deals one after the other?

Yep, that was definitely a big aspect. I was afraid of becoming far too niche in HY work and facing more of a burden in moving back stateside. I also was missing friends and family back here. Finally, HY comes with a lack of exit opportunities (and many contend / joke that COLA is being paid out as opportunity cost for future exit opportunities outside of banks).

Did you start in London or move over there from NYC? How was the transition there? Did you do a lot of traveling or get to leave the office and explore the city when markets were dead? Generally, what is culture like there in terms of face time and expectations? Is NYC more demanding then London?

I moved from NYC after only 6 months. My firm wanted to train me in NY and then head over to London but I knew from the beginning that my job would be based out of the London office. The transition wasn't difficult - in HY teams you'll find a mix of JDs and US LLMs - they're all either American or have lived in the US. Traveling is great. Europe is far more compact and there's no assumption you'll be around on weekends during leaner times. I know associates who travel almost every weekend. Face time is much worse in London. Because the work is all in ebbs and flows, they don't want you being able to sit at home when there's nothing to do. It generally means people come in and are on Reddit for most of the day. Hours probably even out between NYC and London but London is weeks of absolute misery (think 3-4 ams daily) and then weeks of free time.

Could you speak to the reputation of firms in the london market?

Much like in banking, firms are generally seen as issuer firms or lender firms. There are behemoths that are both. I would say K&E and Latham come at the top of that list. But the London HY market is small - all the players know each other and since issuer firms often designate lender counsel, everyone is forced to get along and be "commercial".

Finally, did you use a recruiter for the move there?

Nope, interviewed for and accepted a London job. The money and the ability to pay off student loans was my only priority at the time. It worked out for the best!

[Anonymous User]

Hi, hoping to revive this London thread!

Does anyone have any information on Milbank London? Not necessarily just the expat package, but also reputation, team/culture, and type of work.

[Anonymous User]

Just a new data point. I believe Shearman's COLA is $80k.

[Anonymous User]

Hi, hoping to revive this London thread!

Does anyone have any information on Milbank London? Not necessarily just the expat package, but also reputation, team/culture, and type of work.

As far as I remember, you only get COLA for the first 4 years right? After that you no longer have it.

[Chitune]

Hey guys,

Does anyone know if Skadden London offers COLA?

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys,

Does anyone know if Skadden London offers COLA?

They did as of a couple years ago, but there was talk within the firm of getting rid of it. I don't think LLMs were eligible (only JDs), and maybe there was even some policy that if you were an EU passport holder you were a "local" hire, so not COLA eligible? May be different with Brexit.

[Chitune]

Alright thanks. A number of firms like Cravath, & Sidley Austin offer to LLMs, so was wondering if it’s same for Skadden

[Anonymous User]

Alright thanks. A number of firms like Cravath, & Sidley Austin offer to LLMs, so was wondering if it’s same for Skadden

Pretty sure LLMs don't receive. COLA isn't like base pay and bonus where there's transparency in the market and everyone matches to the same level, so there will be differences between firms. That said, if other US firms are offering a COLA, Skadden and peers won't want to be outside the norm. You can expect for it to be chipped away, though. Some firms offer a COLA in GBP and use an exchange rate that is obviously self-serving, for example.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone knows DPW, K&E, and Cleary COLAs? Deciding on NY offers but may end up in London in a year after I start working (h1b). Thanks!

[Ultramar vistas]

Anyone knows DPW, K&E, and Cleary COLAs? Deciding on NY offers but may end up in London in a year after I start working (h1b). Thanks!

Someone else can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure non us citizen attorneys stashed in London due to visa reasons don’t get the COLA.

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure that’s the case. I think the key is to be JD holder, rather than just being in London, but in my experience firms are keen to convey that you are not “part of the London office”, you’re being temporarily housed there for visa reasons. Would seem unlikely they’d want to provide a pay premium in that context. Also, firms really have license to mess with the COLA in all sorts of ways. Reduce it, deny it, pro rate it, offer benefits in lieu. My firm’s COLA policy is basically a one line handbook entry that says “the firm may provide a cost of living adjustment on terms determined by the firm” or something to that effect. I remember reading these forums years ago before going to London and being psyched about the extra cash, but now on the other side, I really can’t emphasize enough to students or associates contemplating the move that firms hate COLA, want to get rid of it, will probably do so gradually, and partners talk about it in those terms, so it’s really not a thing to stake your future on. Nice while you can get it, though.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone knows if Baker & Mckenzie gives COLA to US associates?

[Anonymous User]

anyone knows about Latham London expat package? and what kind of work do US associates do?

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure that’s the case. I think the key is to be JD holder, rather than just being in London, but in my experience firms are keen to convey that you are not “part of the London office”, you’re being temporarily housed there for visa reasons. Would seem unlikely they’d want to provide a pay premium in that context. Also, firms really have license to mess with the COLA in all sorts of ways. Reduce it, deny it, pro rate it, offer benefits in lieu. My firm’s COLA policy is basically a one line handbook entry that says “the firm may provide a cost of living adjustment on terms determined by the firm” or something to that effect. I remember reading these forums years ago before going to London and being psyched about the extra cash, but now on the other side, I really can’t emphasize enough to students or associates contemplating the move that firms hate COLA, want to get rid of it, will probably do so gradually, and partners talk about it in those terms, so it’s really not a thing to stake your future on. Nice while you can get it, though.

Interesting. What if you're a JD holder but in the London office because you couldn't get the visa?

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure that’s the case. I think the key is to be JD holder, rather than just being in London, but in my experience firms are keen to convey that you are not “part of the London office”, you’re being temporarily housed there for visa reasons. Would seem unlikely they’d want to provide a pay premium in that context. Also, firms really have license to mess with the COLA in all sorts of ways. Reduce it, deny it, pro rate it, offer benefits in lieu. My firm’s COLA policy is basically a one line handbook entry that says “the firm may provide a cost of living adjustment on terms determined by the firm” or something to that effect. I remember reading these forums years ago before going to London and being psyched about the extra cash, but now on the other side, I really can’t emphasize enough to students or associates contemplating the move that firms hate COLA, want to get rid of it, will probably do so gradually, and partners talk about it in those terms, so it’s really not a thing to stake your future on. Nice while you can get it, though.

Interesting. What if you're a JD holder but in the London office because you couldn't get the visa?

I'm the above quoted post. I can only speak for knowing one person at one firm, but that associate was a non-US citizen/green card holder, didn't get his visa to stay remain the States, and so had to go to London for work authorization reasons. He didn't receive the COLA, because he wasn't a "London hire". If he had applied for the London office out of law school, or maybe if he'd applied to move to London once he already had US work authorization, I suspect it would have been different.