2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released Forum

[Anonymous User]

KE associate here. I think some of the thoughts on here about K&E and prestige are nonsense. For private corp work and high stakes litigation, it is elite.

But other reasons make it less of a nice place to work. Namely, it is not a nice firm. Although I would say the majority of associates are nice, normal ppl, there is a small but very influential minority that seek out Kirkland because of its reputation. These people are cut throat and see nothing wrong with stabbing others in the back to get what they want. And it seems like Kirkland rewards this behavior for the most part.

Second valid criticism is its specialists. K&E, no matter what it calls it, is, at the end of the day, an eat what you kill firm. Consequently, it’s specialists are not very good because the good ones are at lockstep firms — that is the whole point behind lockstep compensation. Honestly don’t think Kirkland’s success is sustainable because of this.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Ah yes, noted boutique firm Cravath

lol. it manages to have one location, be relatively small, provide sweatshop hours, and pay far below its nearest competitor in the market. But oh the "rotation system!" lol. Super prestigious.

I was replying to your asinine redefinition of biglaw. I don’t give a shit about prefsTTTige

[TheProsecutor]

Ah yes, noted boutique firm Cravath

lol. it manages to have one location, be relatively small, provide sweatshop hours, and pay far below its nearest competitor in the market. But oh the "rotation system!" lol. Super prestigious.

I was replying to your asinine redefinition of biglaw. I don’t give a shit about prefsTTTige

I didn't redefine it. The previous poster said you couldn't compare a firm as large as Kirkland to the other smaller vault 10s. I said if that's the case, then those other Vault 10s still wouldn't be as prestigious as the boutiques.

[ghostoftraynor]

We shouldn't be fighting. This is a great opportunity for unity. Vault has demonstrated to firms that they will be rewarded for raising compensation (see Thrillbank/Cravath) and punished for implementing NSA-style monitoring systems (see DPW). Let's keep it up.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Unfortunately CovingTTTon has not been properly punished for its bush league move in 2016

[2013]

Why is Gunderson not a vault firm? Even Foley Hoag, a smaller, non-market paying firm, is a vault firm. What gives?

[SLS_AMG]

KE associate here. I think some of the thoughts on here about K&E and prestige are nonsense. For private corp work and high stakes litigation, it is elite.

But other reasons make it less of a nice place to work. Namely, it is not a nice firm. Although I would say the majority of associates are nice, normal ppl, there is a small but very influential minority that seek out Kirkland because of its reputation. These people are cut throat and see nothing wrong with stabbing others in the back to get what they want. And it seems like Kirkland rewards this behavior for the most part.

Second valid criticism is its specialists. K&E, no matter what it calls it, is, at the end of the day, an eat what you kill firm. Consequently, it’s specialists are not very good because the good ones are at lockstep firms — that is the whole point behind lockstep compensation. Honestly don’t think Kirkland’s success is sustainable because of this.

Some interesting points here. I don’t think anyone is arguing that K&E isn’t an elite law firm. Quite to the contrary, I think it (and Latham) are excellent law firms. But more prestigious than Simpson and Davis? I think even most LW and K&E lawyers would admit, in their heart of hearts, that that is preposterous. Simpson and Davis fight with Cravath and Sullivan for recruits, have more impressive institutional clients and, at least in NYC, are viewed on a different tier than K&E and LW.

K&E is admittedly a fascinating firm. As someone on the outside, I fully admit I do not understand the business model. I don’t understand how the pace of expansion allows the firm to maintain any level of quality without turning into just another Walmart firm. I also don’t understand what the contingency plan is if a recession comes.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

My fave thing about these threads is that when you talk crap on K&E a poster like “Prosecutor” shows you why you don’t want to work at K&E by being extremely Mad Online and writing a crappy brief on TLS.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

There's nothing wrong with Kirkland. In fact, it should probably be higher given its reputation among clients, results delivered, profitability, generous associate compensation, early partnership opportunity, and exit options for former employees. The problem on this board is that some folks decided not to go to Kirkland because they wanted to be in a firm that had slightly more selective associate qualifications. But people really are only impressed by selectivity if it is Wachtell or boutique level selective. And if you're good enough to go to Wachtell or a boutique, you don't really care about the prestige of the firm because your credentials speak for themselves separate from the firm.

That being said, I find vault silly. If you're fortunate enough to work at a top tier law firm (regardless of where it ranks on Vault), you're doing very well for yourself and should not really let rankings take away from your accomplishment of having earned your position at the firm.

Edit: not sure why i posted anon. This is theprosecutor.

This post makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about why people do not choose K&E. None of the reasons here are why I did not want to go to K&E. Early partnership opportunities? Calling associates partners is not "partnership opportunities." It has an aggressive and sweatshop reputation. K&E talks up exit opportunities but I do not see them at all. In NYC, NYC firms have better exit ops. K&E does not effectively compete in NorCal with in-house exit opportunities at all. Those are probably two of the biggest markets for good in-house gigs. Even the generous compensation has been called into question here lately.

This is this kind of pap K&E associates tell themselves. It's a walmart style firm with higher standards. Clients love it so they have work and money to go around. That doesn't actually translate to good associate experience. And I believe the relevant metric is prestige. Not the things listed anyways.

ETA: I chose a V50 over V10 for exit ops, so my K&E bashing is purely pro bono trying to steer law students away from K&E, cross-border work and private equity, which I regard as the worst corporate work.

K&E associate here. Not going to get into some big pissing match here, but lol at "compensation has been called into question" comment. Everyone at K&E gets at least market and most people get significantly more. Every year I've gotten ~1.5x. The person calling it in question was arguing that the compensation is really not above market because K&E associates work more. Which is an absurd point and not even true if you are talking about peer firms. We truly live in a post-factual era. Something as objective as K&E paying higher on average bonuses has become a debate.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying Kirkland doesn’t pay market and above. I’m saying what has been called into question is that they pay much above the many other firms that regularly pay above market bonuses.

[cookiejar1]

We shouldn't be fighting. This is a great opportunity for unity. Vault has demonstrated to firms that they will be rewarded for raising compensation (see Thrillbank/Cravath) and punished for implementing NSA-style monitoring systems (see DPW). Let's keep it up.

If Kirkland announces summer bonuses on Monday, I’ll personally stand on the corner of Lex and 53rd and hand out leaflets of the Prosecutor’s “Kirkland is a great land” manifesto.

[rahulg91]

My fave thing about these threads is that when you talk crap on K&E a poster like “Prosecutor” shows you why you don’t want to work at K&E by being extremely Mad Online and writing a crappy brief on TLS.

My fave thing about these threads are the random one-off assholes like you that try to make broad generalizations of law firms based on extremely limited interactions. Sorry your firm doesn't pay above-market bonuses lil breh.

[TestAccount12345]

KE associate here. I think some of the thoughts on here about K&E and prestige are nonsense. For private corp work and high stakes litigation, it is elite.

Second valid criticism is its specialists. K&E, no matter what it calls it, is, at the end of the day, an eat what you kill firm. Consequently, it’s specialists are not very good because the good ones are at lockstep firms — that is the whole point behind lockstep compensation. Honestly don’t think Kirkland’s success is sustainable because of this.

K&E is admittedly a fascinating firm. As someone on the outside, I fully admit I do not understand the business model. I don’t understand how the pace of expansion allows the firm to maintain any level of quality without turning into just another Walmart firm. I also don’t understand what the contingency plan is if a recession comes.

K&E runs itself like a business. If you've worked in non-legal corporate America the whole approach starts to make way more sense; in fact, most firms NOT running like a business starts to seem strange. If a certain type of work is profitable, they pump resources into doing it as much as possible. If a certain type of work is not profitable, they avoid it (unless it helps them bring in profitable work with the same client). They identify and cultivate talent that they can use to complete profitable work as quickly and efficiently as possible, but increase hiring/staffing as needed to avoid burning out current people too much (more profitable over the long run than losing someone they invested heavily in) - hence the rapid growth as the business has grown. They try to out-compete other firms directly, and if an attorney at another firm is too successful at keeping clients and thus expensive to compete against, they just hire that person into K&E and bring the business with them. They are smart enough to recognize that lots of perks and above-market bonuses help them hire and retain associates that can then be billed out to clients at insane rates, and they have the cash flow/runway to invest those resources at scale.

RE: specialists, it's the same mindset that any MBA or corporate client would recognize as pure common sense. Why pay an expensive specialist to work in-house when you can just farm that work to outside counsel as needed? If they realize that work is booming with a certain specialty and outside fees are going higher than what an in-house person would cost, then they hire one. They also work cross-office to leverage competitive advantages - Houston obviously needs environmental people for all the oil work, DC has government-centric folks, Chicago has the restructuring team, etc... if Chicago stumbles into a deal with environmental issues they get the environmentalists from Houston, and the Houston people send all their bankrupt oil clients to Chicago for restructuring.

As far as contingency plans for a recession, I honestly think K&E will fare better than any other firm when the economy tanks. Their bankruptcy and restructuring practices are orders of magnitude larger and better than any other firm, and those businesses boom when things get rough. Any corporate associates whose loads get light on non-bankruptcy work can be easily shifted over to deal with the extra demand; ditto for the litigators, who can shift from normal court to bankruptcy court. Plus, bankruptcy and restructuring spawn tons of M&A and corporate work as the companies emerge and/or get gobbled up by bigger fish (and litigation for all the parties that are salty about the results), and guess who's there to represent them?

[10b5-1]

My fave thing about these threads is that when you talk crap on K&E a poster like “Prosecutor” shows you why you don’t want to work at K&E by being extremely Mad Online and writing a crappy brief on TLS.

Yeah, because it's super tiresome if you actually work there or have ever worked there. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. Does anyone from K&E come in and start bragging about K&Es rise in the rankings?

I'll wait...

No. Instead, a bunch of salty associates and 2Ls with literally zero clue about the way biglaw works just start making unprovoked comments and repeating the old fear points about recessions, as if they're an expert in Biglaw economics and K&E is somehow any more in danger than any other firm in a market downturn:

[It's more "why does anyone think Kirkland and Latham are good firms?"

h.I.l.A.r.I.o.U.s tHeSe aRe cLeArLy sHiTlAw wHy dOeS eVeRy pRiVaTe eQuItY fIrM eVeR wAnT tO pAy kIrKlAnD mOrE mOnEy tHaN oThEr sHiT fIrMs tO dO tOtAlLy nOt iNtErEsTiNg wOrK hOhOhO tHeIr aSsOcIaTeS sHoUlD cOmE aNd wOrK fOr mY lEsS pRoFiTaBlE v10 aNd mAkE lEsS mOnEy aNd wOrK tHe sAmE hOuRs hAhAhAhA sO fUnNy

Sad that this list will trick unsuspecting rising 2Ls into going to Latham & Kirkland LOL.

(I see you responded "lol yes" to this brilliant bit of commentary. What are you, 13?)

K&E is admittedly a fascinating firm. As someone on the outside, I fully admit I do not understand the business model. I don’t understand how the pace of expansion allows the firm to maintain any level of quality without turning into just another Walmart firm. I also don’t understand what the contingency plan is if a recession comes.

At least you can admit it. What is the "contingency plan" for any firm if a recession comes? I'd rather be at one with a top bankruptcy practice, regardless.

This kind of internal infighting, crabs-in-a-bucket bullshit is what makes these forums so boring and uninformative for 1Ls. Is a firm doing well and taking good recruits? Better get all the 1Ls scared that they're in danger of going imminently bust! High profits per partner?? sIgN oF dAnGeR!! If you want to see fewer defensive posts from K&E associates who, !!!shock!!! actually like the no-facetime, unlimited vacation, just-bill-your-hours-and-we'll-treat-you-like-an-adult vibe of the place, as well as the fat bonuses and the general entrepreneurial drive to do better and be better, stop trying to make it sound like the worst place in the world ever. It's transparent and boring to repeat this trend over, and over, but until you stop provoking it, the cycle is not going to end.

[Excellent117]

Helpful to remember that most of these firms are largely the same, and your work is equally unimportant at all of them.

[QContinuum]

unlimited vacation, just-bill-your-hours-and-we'll-treat-you-like-an-adult vibe

Okay, one relatively minor quibble, but can we dispense with the "unlimited vacation" as a perk concept? Unlimited vacation is not a perk. Unlimited vacation really just means no paid vacation days. Firms with vacation policies are usually quite generous in the number of vacation days they grant, and I've never heard of associates at "unlimited vacation" firms actually taking more vacation than their colleagues at firms with vacation policies. In fact, quite the contrary - while anecdotal, my impression is that associates at "unlimited vacation" firms typically end up taking less vacation.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Yeah unlimited vacation is a flame and demonstrably worse if you live somewhere like CA where you get cashed out for your accrued days when you leave.

[objctnyrhnr]

Maybe the real winners in all this are the (approximately) V20-V50 crew who have an actual 1900/1950/2k hours requirement and who make market and market bonuses—no more, no less.

[dryoasis]

Bunch of pissants realizing they peaked in law school when their 'prestigious gpa's' don't matter as much when it comes to the actual practice of law.

Kirkland is killing it because they are good at what they do.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe the real winners in all this are the (approximately) V20-V50 crew who have an actual 1900/1950/2k hours requirement and who make market and market bonuses—no more, no less.

Definitely. I started out at one of those firms and billed 1100/1920 my first two years. Market pay and market bonus.

[10b5-1]

unlimited vacation, just-bill-your-hours-and-we'll-treat-you-like-an-adult vibe

Okay, one relatively minor quibble, but can we dispense with the "unlimited vacation" as a perk concept? Unlimited vacation is not a perk. Unlimited vacation really just means no paid vacation days. Firms with vacation policies are usually quite generous in the number of vacation days they grant, and I've never heard of associates at "unlimited vacation" firms actually taking more vacation than their colleagues at firms with vacation policies. In fact, quite the contrary - while anecdotal, my impression is that associates at "unlimited vacation" firms typically end up taking less vacation.

Everyone's experience is different, but respectfully disagree.

I do agree that at your typical, 10-7 tech firm, it is a total scam. What makes it work so well in a low facetime biglaw environment is that essentially all we are being judged on is overall, aggregate hours, and general availability. I love this particular feature of my job so much because it means I never have to worry about keeping track of time in the office, time taken off, or where I work from.

If you have sick parents (personal example) and you need to go back to a midwestern city for a couple of weeks to be present - no worries, no need to clear it with HR or anyone, just let your group know you'll be out of the office for personal reasons but will be available. If you're slow and want to leave on a friday for a long weekend - cool, no need to eat into vacation days, just don't show up on friday and hope no one emails you with a last minute fire drill. And then when you do want to take real vacation, you let people know and schedule it as you would anywhere else, without having to count up whether you used your 20, or whatever it is.

I have grown so used to this kind of, "you're a grown up, get done what you need to get done and do it wherever you need to do it" attitude that I find the prospect of going in-house a bit horrifying.

[Anonymous User]

unlimited vacation, just-bill-your-hours-and-we'll-treat-you-like-an-adult vibe

Okay, one relatively minor quibble, but can we dispense with the "unlimited vacation" as a perk concept? Unlimited vacation is not a perk. Unlimited vacation really just means no paid vacation days. Firms with vacation policies are usually quite generous in the number of vacation days they grant, and I've never heard of associates at "unlimited vacation" firms actually taking more vacation than their colleagues at firms with vacation policies. In fact, quite the contrary - while anecdotal, my impression is that associates at "unlimited vacation" firms typically end up taking less vacation.

Not the person you are responding to, but I'm a K&E associate, and you are absolutely right. Altogether, most people probably don't take more than two weeks a year. Meanwhile, my friends at firms with a set amount of days are encouraged to use those days. "Unlimited" vacation is a huge scam.

The no facetime thing, however, is real. I didn't real consider it as a factor when choosing a firm, but it makes a huge difference in terms of work-life balance (especially when you work at a sweatshop).

Re the larger debate, I do think its funny how up and arms people are after KE moved up two spots on a largely meaningless scale. So KE was fine as 8th most prestigious, but the whole world is turned upside down when they move to 6.

Also DPW has 10 offices, KE has 15. NO WAY they can be compared to each other. DPW's modest 10 offices is still in the realm of uber-selective boutique, but at 15 KE is more comparable to Walmart. The delusion here is palatable.

And yea, it kind of sucks KE associates have to come on here and defend the firm. I'm happy with my choice of firm, but at the end of the day I'm only still here because of the pay. It's a sweatshop similar to other top firms. At no point am I going to go around saying "OMG KIRKLAND IS GREAT." But, what are people supposed to do when people come on here and shit on KE, largely with objectively untrue things. Yes, most KE associates get above market bonuses. No, most other firms do not. How is that still a debate point?

[dabigchina]

The argument that KE has a great RX/BK group, and thus makes it a safe bet for associates in other groups has always been weird to me.

yes, the firm (and maybe the other partners) will be well insulated in a rescession, but does K&E really have the kind of culture that would keep an army of PE associates unutilized in a recession without making huge cuts? Given what people say about the place, I'd say no.

[Anonymous User]

The argument that KE has a great RX/BK group, and thus makes it a safe bet for associates in other groups has always been weird to me.

yes, the firm (and maybe the other partners) will be well insulated in a rescession, but does K&E really have the kind of culture that would keep an army of PE associates unutilized in a recession without making huge cuts? Given what people say about the place, I'd say no.

K&E associate here. I don't think the argument is that BK will be making money, so the firm will be content to keep paying M&A associates that aren't working on anything. Every BK case involves the litigation, corporate, and tax teams. So if Bk is going gangbusters, it provides work for most of the other groups, especially compared to firms that do not have large BK practices.

Of course, if there is a major recession, K&E will fire people like every other firm. You'd just expect the hurt to be a little less at firms that have robust bankruptcy practices.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

unlimited vacation, just-bill-your-hours-and-we'll-treat-you-like-an-adult vibe

Okay, one relatively minor quibble, but can we dispense with the "unlimited vacation" as a perk concept? Unlimited vacation is not a perk. Unlimited vacation really just means no paid vacation days. Firms with vacation policies are usually quite generous in the number of vacation days they grant, and I've never heard of associates at "unlimited vacation" firms actually taking more vacation than their colleagues at firms with vacation policies. In fact, quite the contrary - while anecdotal, my impression is that associates at "unlimited vacation" firms typically end up taking less vacation.

Everyone's experience is different, but respectfully disagree.

I do agree that at your typical, 10-7 tech firm, it is a total scam. What makes it work so well in a low facetime biglaw environment is that essentially all we are being judged on is overall, aggregate hours, and general availability. I love this particular feature of my job so much because it means I never have to worry about keeping track of time in the office, time taken off, or where I work from.

If you have sick parents (personal example) and you need to go back to a midwestern city for a couple of weeks to be present - no worries, no need to clear it with HR or anyone, just let your group know you'll be out of the office for personal reasons but will be available. If you're slow and want to leave on a friday for a long weekend - cool, no need to eat into vacation days, just don't show up on friday and hope no one emails you with a last minute fire drill. And then when you do want to take real vacation, you let people know and schedule it as you would anywhere else, without having to count up whether you used your 20, or whatever it is.

I have grown so used to this kind of, "you're a grown up, get done what you need to get done and do it wherever you need to do it" attitude that I find the prospect of going in-house a bit horrifying.

Have you worked at a firm with vacation accrual? Because it works exactly the same as you’re describing. The ability to do those things you mentioned comes down to group and firm culture not vacation policy. Only time I ever used days was for a true vacation (read: I won’t be responding, leave me alone).

[10b5-1]

The argument that KE has a great RX/BK group, and thus makes it a safe bet for associates in other groups has always been weird to me.

yes, the firm (and maybe the other partners) will be well insulated in a rescession, but does K&E really have the kind of culture that would keep an army of PE associates unutilized in a recession without making huge cuts? Given what people say about the place, I'd say no.

And again, K&E associates aren't coming on TLS and arguing that their jobs are downturn-proof. It's a response to the fear-mongering other firms use to argue that K&E is somehow more vulnerable than any other given firm in a recession.

I mean yeah, every expendable corporate attorney should be a little concerned about a market downturn and should work to make themselves as un-expendable as possible if they want to stay employed through those times. But, in fact, our "army" of PE associates has historically been put to good use in downturns. PE firms have been consistent about buying low and generating some sort of deal activity in most types of markets. K&E Houston opened in the worst possible market for deals in Texas in 2014, and grew rapidly off the back of divestitures and other bankruptcy / PE related deals. Then when the market boomed they were well placed to capitalize, and have never looked back. Every office / market is unique, but the argument that having a strong bankruptcy practice is a nice countercyclical to have is not a crazy one, even if it is not some kind of magic recession proofing. Nobody wants a recession.

As to culture, was K&E the firm best know in '08-'10 for layoffs? No. So why bark up that tree?

Have you worked at a firm with vacation accrual? Because it works exactly the same as you’re describing. The ability to do those things you mentioned comes down to group and firm culture not vacation policy. Only time I ever used days was for a true vacation (read: I won’t be responding, leave me alone).

Yes. I have worked at a couple of large firms. It was not the same thing, for me at least. You still had to keep track of things and run it by admin staff, and fundamentally you could run out of vacation. I cannot, in my current job, run out of vacation. I have stopped thinking about it, and it is mentally freeing. I got extremely slow in December and went back to see family for two weeks without "telling" anybody other than the people I was working with on deals. It wasn't "vacation" and wouldn't have wanted to use it as such, it was just nice to be there. I've taken countless Mondays and Fridays off to make weekend trips more fun, etc etc. I'm sure there are other systems that could achieve the same thing, I'm just saying that in the case of low-facetime biglaw, unlimited vacation works very well for me and, in my experience, most people here, and I wouldn't have it any other way.