Duke Law OCI 2019 Forum

[eightleggedfreaks]

I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Do you have any advice for researching midlevel firms? I am planning to do lots of coffees and phone calls with associates— I’ve already passed materials along to four firms.

As much as you may hate NY, anyone can live anywhere for a summer. Target NY firms with big Chicago classes - Kirkland, Sidley, etc. it’s not as hard you may think to switch offices for when you graduate.

How do you know that it’s not that hard to switch offices when I graduate? Genuinely curious if you have experience with this.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Do you have any advice for researching midlevel firms? I am planning to do lots of coffees and phone calls with associates— I’ve already passed materials along to four firms.

As much as you may hate NY, anyone can live anywhere for a summer. Target NY firms with big Chicago classes - Kirkland, Sidley, etc. it’s not as hard you may think to switch offices for when you graduate.

How do you know that it’s not that hard to switch offices when I graduate? Genuinely curious if you have experience with this.

i'm not who suggested it (tho I agree with them--if I were you I'd be doing as many chicago bids as possible and fill the rest with NYC bids to firms big Chicago offices, NYC isn't bad for a summer and landing midlaw is going to be a bigger hassle than getting an NYC firm to switch you to Chicago after you've already done a summer if I had to guess).

But people do switch offices. It's not firms' favorite thing but a lot of the time they'd rather not have flushed an entire SA summer down the drain when the relative costs of letting them switch offices are much smaller. That said you should obviously not go into a Kirkland NY screener and say you're interested in them because you want to switch to Chicago.

[GeneralFile(s)]

I am currently a 2nd year in NYC and a duke alum. I grew up in Chicago proper, went to a BIG10 and worked 2 years at a major firm in Chicago after college, so plenty of ties. I had a 3.4X and did the full off campus interviewing in Chicago, bid all the Chicago firms at OCI and also mass mailed all market paying firms in Chicago. No bites - but others looking at Chicago DID find something so YMMV. Point being, depending on your GPA, bid NYC. With just 2 years experience, I am very confident I can lateral to Chicago whenever I want based on recent departures from my firm and knowing the lateral market. Don't do midlaw in Chicago because you cant stand to live in NYC for just 2 years and possibly undermine your whole career trajectory as a result.

[eightleggedfreaks]

I am currently a 2nd year in NYC and a duke alum. I grew up in Chicago proper, went to a BIG10 and worked 2 years at a major firm in Chicago after college, so plenty of ties. I had a 3.4X and did the full off campus interviewing in Chicago, bid all the Chicago firms at OCI and also mass mailed all market paying firms in Chicago. No bites - but others looking at Chicago DID find something so YMMV. Point being, depending on your GPA, bid NYC. With just 2 years experience, I am very confident I can lateral to Chicago whenever I want based on recent departures from my firm and knowing the lateral market. Don't do midlaw in Chicago because you cant stand to live in NYC for just 2 years and possibly undermine your whole career trajectory as a result.

How’s your quality of life? Do you get enough sleep at night? Do you see your friends and partner (if applicable)?

[GeneralFile(s)]

I am currently a 2nd year in NYC and a duke alum. I grew up in Chicago proper, went to a BIG10 and worked 2 years at a major firm in Chicago after college, so plenty of ties. I had a 3.4X and did the full off campus interviewing in Chicago, bid all the Chicago firms at OCI and also mass mailed all market paying firms in Chicago. No bites - but others looking at Chicago DID find something so YMMV. Point being, depending on your GPA, bid NYC. With just 2 years experience, I am very confident I can lateral to Chicago whenever I want based on recent departures from my firm and knowing the lateral market. Don't do midlaw in Chicago because you cant stand to live in NYC for just 2 years and possibly undermine your whole career trajectory as a result.

How’s your quality of life? Do you get enough sleep at night? Do you see your friends and partner (if applicable)?

QoL is fine. I live with my partner and walk to work. I leave home at 9AM and leave work on average at about 8PM. About half the time I eat dinner at work and half the time I come home to eat. Either way I get in about 2 hours at home each night before bed not working. I work occasionally on weekends, but not more than the associates across the table. NYC deal work requires late nights sometimes, but I doubt working at Kirkland or Sidley etc. in Chicago is any different. On the worst weeks before closings, I leave work around 10-11pm each night (but get in at 10am). Maybe once every two months I work very late into early morning. I am taking about 3 weeks of vacation per year and feel like its not a problem to take one 2 week vacation each year. I think that is a pretty typical life of billing 2000-2200 hours whether in NYC or somewhere else and it does admittedly take some getting used to. Would 1800 hours be way better than 2100 hours and give me more free time? Yes, definitely and I don't want to do this forever. Chicago is better for so many reasons and I still absolutely want to move back, but I have been happy in NYC for the few years I plan to live here. I am getting top of the market experience in my practice area and feel confident about my lateral and in-house opportunities in Chicago down the road.

[eightleggedfreaks]

I am currently a 2nd year in NYC and a duke alum. I grew up in Chicago proper, went to a BIG10 and worked 2 years at a major firm in Chicago after college, so plenty of ties. I had a 3.4X and did the full off campus interviewing in Chicago, bid all the Chicago firms at OCI and also mass mailed all market paying firms in Chicago. No bites - but others looking at Chicago DID find something so YMMV. Point being, depending on your GPA, bid NYC. With just 2 years experience, I am very confident I can lateral to Chicago whenever I want based on recent departures from my firm and knowing the lateral market. Don't do midlaw in Chicago because you cant stand to live in NYC for just 2 years and possibly undermine your whole career trajectory as a result.

How’s your quality of life? Do you get enough sleep at night? Do you see your friends and partner (if applicable)?

QoL is fine. I live with my partner and walk to work. I leave home at 9AM and leave work on average at about 8PM. About half the time I eat dinner at work and half the time I come home to eat. Either way I get in about 2 hours at home each night before bed not working. I work occasionally on weekends, but not more than the associates across the table. NYC deal work requires late nights sometimes, but I doubt working at Kirkland or Sidley etc. in Chicago is any different. On the worst weeks before closings, I leave work around 10-11pm each night (but get in at 10am). Maybe once every two months I work very late into early morning. I am taking about 3 weeks of vacation per year and feel like its not a problem to take one 2 week vacation each year. I think that is a pretty typical life of billing 2000-2200 hours whether in NYC or somewhere else and it does admittedly take some getting used to. Would 1800 hours be way better than 2100 hours and give me more free time? Yes, definitely and I don't want to do this forever. Chicago is better for so many reasons and I still absolutely want to move back, but I have been happy in NYC for the few years I plan to live here. I am getting top of the market experience in my practice area and feel confident about my lateral and in-house opportunities in Chicago down the road.

Would you mind PMing me your firm and practice group? It sounds like corporate but I'm curious beyond that.

[Anonymous User]

How many interviews did everybody get scheduled for so far?

[Anonymous User]

How many interviews did everybody get scheduled for so far?

21 here

[Anonymous User]

How many interviews did everybody get scheduled for so far?

21 here

I got 20

[Anonymous User]

How many interviews did everybody get scheduled for so far?

19, 8/10 in my top ten bids so pretty happy.

[Anonymous User]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

[Anonymous User]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

FYI you're going to be miserable doing 25 interviews, and the school is very strict about not allowing anyone to drop an interview.
obviously you're the best judge of whether you'll need that many; I'm just saying, don't underestimate the grind here.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone actually understand how the waitlist works from here on out? It sounds like employers basically get the resumes of everyone on it and can pick extra people up if they want.

[Anonymous User]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

FYI you're going to be miserable doing 25 interviews, and the school is very strict about not allowing anyone to drop an interview.
obviously you're the best judge of whether you'll need that many; I'm just saying, don't underestimate the grind here.

Meh I feel like OCI is going to be miserable regardless, and I only really have one "crazy" day of 8 interviews, but honestly they're only 20 minutes each and I think I only have back to backs twice through the few days.

Did decide to not go for anything during open signups as there doesn't seem to be any firms I'm interested in with open slots after this last interview run, and I could always get a couple late ones added anyways.

[JHP]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

FYI you're going to be miserable doing 25 interviews, and the school is very strict about not allowing anyone to drop an interview.
obviously you're the best judge of whether you'll need that many; I'm just saying, don't underestimate the grind here.

Meh I feel like OCI is going to be miserable regardless, and I only really have one "crazy" day of 8 interviews, but honestly they're only 20 minutes each and I think I only have back to backs twice through the few days.

Did decide to not go for anything during open signups as there doesn't seem to be any firms I'm interested in with open slots after this last interview run, and I could always get a couple late ones added anyways.

I wouldn't underestimate the sheer exhaustion you will feel having so many interviews. Don't get me wrong, I know people who have done that many, but it is an absolute grind and a day of 8 interviews will take a toll. Unless you are someone who feels literally no anxiety in interviews and will never forget/get a firm's name wrong, you're going to be really exhausted. I'm sure you will get through them and generally do fine, but you should remember that you're not a robot and that there will be interviews where you are feeling so worn out that you are "off" in the interview and do not do as well--plan wisely for the firms you actually want.

[Anonymous User]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

FYI you're going to be miserable doing 25 interviews, and the school is very strict about not allowing anyone to drop an interview.
obviously you're the best judge of whether you'll need that many; I'm just saying, don't underestimate the grind here.

Meh I feel like OCI is going to be miserable regardless, and I only really have one "crazy" day of 8 interviews, but honestly they're only 20 minutes each and I think I only have back to backs twice through the few days.

Did decide to not go for anything during open signups as there doesn't seem to be any firms I'm interested in with open slots after this last interview run, and I could always get a couple late ones added anyways.

I wouldn't underestimate the sheer exhaustion you will feel having so many interviews. Don't get me wrong, I know people who have done that many, but it is an absolute grind and a day of 8 interviews will take a toll. Unless you are someone who feels literally no anxiety in interviews and will never forget/get a firm's name wrong, you're going to be really exhausted. I'm sure you will get through them and generally do fine, but you should remember that you're not a robot and that there will be interviews where you are feeling so worn out that you are "off" in the interview and do not do as well--plan wisely for the firms you actually want.

I disagree with the above poster to some extent. I may fall into the category of someone that doesn't get exhausted in interviews as I'm pretty social and outgoing but there are definitely certain situations where you should take as many interviews as you can get. I was targeting NY and DC and only was interested in litigation. DC is very competitive and so I wanted to interview with any firm I met the 25th percentile cutoff. That only left with me 10 or so spots left for NY.

I had 24 screeners and got a lot of NY callbacks but only 4 DC callbacks. The fact I did so well in NY makes me think I wasn't exhausted or whatever for the DC ones I didn't get, DC is just more selective so casting a wide net was necessary. Had I interviewed with less firms I may not have gotten any DC callbacks. I definitely don't regret it. Just do your research on the firms at night so you don't go in and say anything stupid. Read notes on the way to your interview in need be. It's definitely worth a few hard days to secure the firm/city you want.

[JHP]

Updated schedule is up after waitlist lottery, went from 19->23 picking up a couple top choices I didn't get round one. Debating whether to try and pick up another 1-2 during open sign ups....

FYI you're going to be miserable doing 25 interviews, and the school is very strict about not allowing anyone to drop an interview.
obviously you're the best judge of whether you'll need that many; I'm just saying, don't underestimate the grind here.

Meh I feel like OCI is going to be miserable regardless, and I only really have one "crazy" day of 8 interviews, but honestly they're only 20 minutes each and I think I only have back to backs twice through the few days.

Did decide to not go for anything during open signups as there doesn't seem to be any firms I'm interested in with open slots after this last interview run, and I could always get a couple late ones added anyways.

I wouldn't underestimate the sheer exhaustion you will feel having so many interviews. Don't get me wrong, I know people who have done that many, but it is an absolute grind and a day of 8 interviews will take a toll. Unless you are someone who feels literally no anxiety in interviews and will never forget/get a firm's name wrong, you're going to be really exhausted. I'm sure you will get through them and generally do fine, but you should remember that you're not a robot and that there will be interviews where you are feeling so worn out that you are "off" in the interview and do not do as well--plan wisely for the firms you actually want.

I disagree with the above poster to some extent. I may fall into the category of someone that doesn't get exhausted in interviews as I'm pretty social and outgoing but there are definitely certain situations where you should take as many interviews as you can get. I was targeting NY and DC and only was interested in litigation. DC is very competitive and so I wanted to interview with any firm I met the 25th percentile cutoff. That only left with me 10 or so spots left for NY.

I had 24 screeners and got a lot of NY callbacks but only 4 DC callbacks. The fact I did so well in NY makes me think I wasn't exhausted or whatever for the DC ones I didn't get, DC is just more selective so casting a wide net was necessary. Had I interviewed with less firms I may not have gotten any DC callbacks. I definitely don't regret it. Just do your research on the firms at night so you don't go in and say anything stupid. Read notes on the way to your interview in need be. It's definitely worth a few hard days to secure the firm/city you want.

That's fair--I guess my point was more just "don't underestimate how tired you'll be". I wouldn't necessarily say cut down on the interviews, but I also think that if there are a couple firms you know for sure you wouldn't want to work at, it might be worth reserving the energy and focus you'd spend on those interviews.

[Anonymous User]

My strategy was take as many interviews as possible. I did 30 screeners, 25+ were with DC offices and the rest with Texas offices. I was wiped out at the end of the week but I was glad I did it. It's a numbers game; I got more CBs because I picked up more screeners.

The main advice I would offer is, no matter how many screeners, put the work in in advance to know what the firm is about, what the office is about, and ideally what the interviewer is about. You should dedicate, like, 20 minutes per screener to this the night before and take notes that you can look at while you're in the hallway waiting to knock on the door. So you need to find that energy after a day of 8 interviews when you have 9 the next day, or else you're going to shoot yourself in the foot on those 9.

[Anonymous User]

I started with 20, picked up one off the waitlist and 2 off the open signups. I feel pretty confident at this point with my pre-OCI efforts plus the 23 screeners.

Any advice for maintaining your energy throughout? I moved back the early interviews when I could, although I wasn't always successful.

[Anonymous User]

20 screeners here. Didn't bid any NYC (because I can't live there and would rather strike out) so we'll see how this goes.

The main advice I would offer is, no matter how many screeners, put the work in in advance to know what the firm is about, what the office is about, and ideally what the interviewer is about.

Can you talk about what exactly this means? Do you mean what their practice areas are/who their clients are/where they make their money? Hard to think of anything else that's publicly available and might come up in an interview.

[Anonymous User]

20 screeners here. Didn't bid any NYC (because I can't live there and would rather strike out) so we'll see how this goes.

The main advice I would offer is, no matter how many screeners, put the work in in advance to know what the firm is about, what the office is about, and ideally what the interviewer is about.

Can you talk about what exactly this means? Do you mean what their practice areas are/who their clients are/where they make their money? Hard to think of anything else that's publicly available and might come up in an interview.

So one classic example is the person who shows up to the Williams & Connolly interview and talks about their New York office, or talks about their passion for transactional work. Don't be that person.

You should know about the types of work they're known for doing. For example (these are all off the top of my head so don't take this as necessarily correct, do your own research): W&C is known for white collar defense, Covington for regulatory work, Perkins Coie for political work.

Does the firm have any signature quirks? Again, Covington is known for being quiet and bookish, W&C for being a DC-only, litigation-only firm, Perkins is Seattle-based and closely aligned with the Democratic Party, WilmerHale also known for ties to Democratic Party.

Know about any big cases for which the firm has been in the news recently. E.g., if the firm was involved in the AT&T merger case, etc.

Know about unique programs the firms offer, such as pro bono secondments, unlimited pro bono hours, etc. Know how work is assigned within the office - free market vs. whatever non-free market firms do.

[Anonymous User]

The main advice I would offer is, no matter how many screeners, put the work in in advance to know what the firm is about, what the office is about, and ideally what the interviewer is about.

Can you talk about what exactly this means? Do you mean what their practice areas are/who their clients are/where they make their money? Hard to think of anything else that's publicly available and might come up in an interview.

So one classic example is the person who shows up to the Williams & Connolly interview and talks about their New York office, or talks about their passion for transactional work. Don't be that person.

You should know about the types of work they're known for doing. For example (these are all off the top of my head so don't take this as necessarily correct, do your own research): W&C is known for white collar defense, Covington for regulatory work, Perkins Coie for political work.

Does the firm have any signature quirks? Again, Covington is known for being quiet and bookish, W&C for being a DC-only, litigation-only firm, Perkins is Seattle-based and closely aligned with the Democratic Party, WilmerHale also known for ties to Democratic Party.

Know about any big cases for which the firm has been in the news recently. E.g., if the firm was involved in the AT&T merger case, etc.

Know about unique programs the firms offer, such as pro bono secondments, unlimited pro bono hours, etc. Know how work is assigned within the office - free market vs. whatever non-free market firms do.

I'm the "know what the firm/office/interviewer is about" poster, and I totally agree with the most recent reply. I'm also in DC, and one easy way to really hurt yourself with us is to bring up an interest in regulatory work as an answer to why you want to work at my firm specifically. My firm doesn't do that at all, but people love to mention that when aiming at DC. It's just a sloppy, lazy unforced error.

To answer your question, practice areas are the big one. I think it would seem kinda weird to talk about clients specifically unless there is a really, really specialized one - don't dig into the research and say "The work XYZ Firm does for Bank of America is really amazing, it is a dream of mine to work on BoA matters."

I also think that knowing your interviewer's background could add a little spark, especially if you find something in common (like a shared alma mater or something) but also to know the work that they do so, at the very least, if you run out of questions with 3 minutes on the clock, you can just say "I'm also intrigued by ABC subject matter, is that what you do?"

Just little ways to separate yourself. Make it known, without being weird about it, that you put the work in and that you are really interested. I have done interviews now and that stuff matters a lot.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping

[Anonymous User]

Allen & Overy NY CBs out

[Anonymous User]

CB offers out from SRZ, White & Case NY