2L Grade Drop and BigLaw return offer Forum

[prospectivelawyer]

Hi everyone, I realize this might be a topic that's been discussed on here quite a bit, but I can't quite find an exact answer for what I'm wondering, so please bear with me.

I'm currently summering at a biglaw firm in NYC and I have a GPA that is well below median at a T14. I am worried about getting a couple Cs or even an F from my spring semester (grades are not out yet), and I'm wondering if this will affect my return offer at the firm.

Also, does anyone know if there's a list posted anywhere of firms that ask for 2L grades?

Thank you in advance!

[MaxMcMann]

Can’t help, but out of curiosity how did you get the SA?

[cavalier1138]

If you got the SA with below-median grades, there's no reason that should be a problem.

Also, I highly doubt you got an F. Check your school's grading policy, but my understanding is that all T13 schools require professors to individually justify F grades before they'll actually put it on your transcript. So unless you literally just spent the entire exam period drawing a dick out of X's on the page, you'll be fine.

[QContinuum]

If you got the SA with below-median grades, there's no reason that should be a problem.

This x1000. OP, your firm hired you not caring about your grades. (If they cared, they wouldn't have hired you.) They know grades aren't your strong suit, as you were well below median as a 1L. They won't care that you'll still be well below median, so long as you remain on track to graduate on time.

I would not worry overmuch about getting an F unless, as cavalier notes, you did something truly ridiculous on the final, like ridiculous of the "ANSWER TO QUESTION 1: PROF, YOU SUCK" level. T14s don't give Fs, pretty much. They rarely even give Cs, generally it's only a few profs who will do it, while others will give B-s even to folks they admit "should" have gotten Cs.

Realistically the worst grades you'll probably end up with are B-s.

[Anonymous User]

I know that this is very uncommon, but this did happen to a classmate and friend of mine. He got the SA from OCI after a 1L of basically median grades, then his 2L grades took a nosedive - no Fs on the transcript, but significantly below median. Our school does grading a bit unusually but he went from maybe 45th percentile 1L grades to what I would guess 10th-15th percentile 2L grades.

In my opinion, his firm seemed more interested in 2L grades than most because they reached out in the spring asking to update them with Fall 2L grades, and then reached out again to the SAs again during their summer to ask for Spring 2L grades. That didn't happen with the firm I was at and I don't think it usually does, but I could be wrong. My firm only got Fall 2L grades before making real associate offers.

Anyway, he got no offered and was told it was because of his grades even though his work was totally fine as a summer. He pounded the pavement and got something through 3L OCI. Happy ending to the story.

[QContinuum]

In my opinion, his firm seemed more interested in 2L grades than most because they reached out in the spring asking to update them with Fall 2L grades, and then reached out again to the SAs again during their summer to ask for Spring 2L grades. That didn't happen with the firm I was at and I don't think it usually does, but I could be wrong. My firm only got Fall 2L grades before making real associate offers.

Anyway, he got no offered and was told it was because of his grades even though his work was totally fine as a summer. He pounded the pavement and got something through 3L OCI. Happy ending to the story.

Wow. Was this at a traditionally grade-selective firm? Seems odd and unusual for a firm willing to hire down to median (or below) to care so much about 2L grades. When I summered, we were asked to send in updated transcripts reflecting our 2L grades but it seemed like a mere formality to ensure we didn't drop out of law school/were still on track to graduate. I could be wrong but I never got the impression that any attorneys ever reviewed those updated transcripts - certainly I never had the impression any attorneys knew a thing about my 2L grades.

[JHP]

In my opinion, his firm seemed more interested in 2L grades than most because they reached out in the spring asking to update them with Fall 2L grades, and then reached out again to the SAs again during their summer to ask for Spring 2L grades. That didn't happen with the firm I was at and I don't think it usually does, but I could be wrong. My firm only got Fall 2L grades before making real associate offers.

Anyway, he got no offered and was told it was because of his grades even though his work was totally fine as a summer. He pounded the pavement and got something through 3L OCI. Happy ending to the story.

Wow. Was this at a traditionally grade-selective firm? Seems odd and unusual for a firm willing to hire down to median (or below) to care so much about 2L grades. When I summered, we were asked to send in updated transcripts reflecting our 2L grades but it seemed like a mere formality to ensure we didn't drop out of law school/were still on track to graduate. I could be wrong but I never got the impression that any attorneys ever reviewed those updated transcripts - certainly I never had the impression any attorneys knew a thing about my 2L grades.

Yeah, it almost sound like this firm was looking for a reason not to hire at least one or a couple SAs.... Maybe they knew they overaccepted for the summer and needed to cut some dead weight? But even then, if they want to stay competitive reputation-wise from a recruiting standpoint, I would think they'd swallow the sub-par grades and just hire everyone...

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, his firm seemed more interested in 2L grades than most because they reached out in the spring asking to update them with Fall 2L grades, and then reached out again to the SAs again during their summer to ask for Spring 2L grades. That didn't happen with the firm I was at and I don't think it usually does, but I could be wrong. My firm only got Fall 2L grades before making real associate offers.

Anyway, he got no offered and was told it was because of his grades even though his work was totally fine as a summer. He pounded the pavement and got something through 3L OCI. Happy ending to the story.

Wow. Was this at a traditionally grade-selective firm? Seems odd and unusual for a firm willing to hire down to median (or below) to care so much about 2L grades. When I summered, we were asked to send in updated transcripts reflecting our 2L grades but it seemed like a mere formality to ensure we didn't drop out of law school/were still on track to graduate. I could be wrong but I never got the impression that any attorneys ever reviewed those updated transcripts - certainly I never had the impression any attorneys knew a thing about my 2L grades.

Yeah, it almost sound like this firm was looking for a reason not to hire at least one or a couple SAs.... Maybe they knew they overaccepted for the summer and needed to cut some dead weight? But even then, if they want to stay competitive reputation-wise from a recruiting standpoint, I would think they'd swallow the sub-par grades and just hire everyone...

Do you know the name of the firm? Or could you give some hints?

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, his firm seemed more interested in 2L grades than most because they reached out in the spring asking to update them with Fall 2L grades, and then reached out again to the SAs again during their summer to ask for Spring 2L grades. That didn't happen with the firm I was at and I don't think it usually does, but I could be wrong. My firm only got Fall 2L grades before making real associate offers.

Anyway, he got no offered and was told it was because of his grades even though his work was totally fine as a summer. He pounded the pavement and got something through 3L OCI. Happy ending to the story.

Wow. Was this at a traditionally grade-selective firm? Seems odd and unusual for a firm willing to hire down to median (or below) to care so much about 2L grades. When I summered, we were asked to send in updated transcripts reflecting our 2L grades but it seemed like a mere formality to ensure we didn't drop out of law school/were still on track to graduate. I could be wrong but I never got the impression that any attorneys ever reviewed those updated transcripts - certainly I never had the impression any attorneys knew a thing about my 2L grades.

Going from ~top 45% to bottom 10% is a steep drop. Might not care about a 3.1 at MVPB but a 2.5, etc looks pretty bad, especially because 2L/3L grades tend to go up. Also makes it harder to unload the candidate in lateral moves—below median is fine but bottom of the class is typically something you want to avoid.

This is why firms have that “we expect you to roughly maintain performance” language that people freak out over, it’s not to cover going from a 3.7 to a 3.4, it’s to cover the wheels coming off.