When is it time to quit the legal job search? Forum

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2019 11:55 am

Aptitude wrote:
Also, have you considered just being nice and agreeable? It can't be that hard to not annoy an interviewer for a 30 minutes. Just nod and agree with stuff they say. There are plenty of huge weirdos/aholes at law firms - just pretend to be agreeable. Take an acting class.
I am nice and agreeable, but it is not enough to just survive an interview and not offend people. You have to be likable. Once an interviewer or panel notices that something is off, its over because at least one of the other people being interviewed will have normal social skills.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by 2013 » Wed May 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Aptitude wrote:
Also, have you considered just being nice and agreeable? It can't be that hard to not annoy an interviewer for a 30 minutes. Just nod and agree with stuff they say. There are plenty of huge weirdos/aholes at law firms - just pretend to be agreeable. Take an acting class.
I am nice and agreeable, but it is not enough to just survive an interview and not offend people. You have to be likable. Once an interviewer or panel notices that something is off, its over because at least one of the other people being interviewed will have normal social skills.
You come off as very defensive on here. Maybe that’s not the case in real life, but just wanted to point that out.

If you currently had a job learning some legal skills, those could outweigh your social skills.

At the end of the day, when you aren’t interviewing for entry level / biglaw jobs, people can overlook quirky traits if you impress them enough with your skills.

I’ve had the unenviable task of doing interviews before and, at the end of the day, I go with the person I think will do a better job over the person I enjoyed speaking with for 20-30 minutes who is less qualified. The partners that ultimately make the decision feel the same when we have pressing needs in certain departments.

Edited to add above

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Aptitude » Wed May 15, 2019 12:21 pm

2013 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Aptitude wrote:
Also, have you considered just being nice and agreeable? It can't be that hard to not annoy an interviewer for a 30 minutes. Just nod and agree with stuff they say. There are plenty of huge weirdos/aholes at law firms - just pretend to be agreeable. Take an acting class.
I am nice and agreeable, but it is not enough to just survive an interview and not offend people. You have to be likable. Once an interviewer or panel notices that something is off, its over because at least one of the other people being interviewed will have normal social skills.
You come off as very defensive on here. Maybe that’s not the case in real life, but just wanted to point that out.

If you currently had a job learning some legal skills, those could outweigh your social skills.

At the end of the day, when you aren’t interviewing for entry level / biglaw jobs, people can overlook quirky traits if you impress them enough with your skills.

I’ve had the unenviable task of doing interviews before and, at the end of the day, I go with the person I think will do a better job over the person I enjoyed speaking with for 20-30 minutes who is less qualified. The partners that ultimately make the decision feel the same when we have pressing needs in certain departments.

Edited to add above
Yeah, he doesn't come off as agreeable at all. Real air of negativity and arrogance, like he's too good for stuff.

OP just has to fake it till he makes it. It doesn't help that he's unemployed either. OP needs to get a job somewhere. Nothing looks worse on a resume than long periods of unemployment. Even if I saw something like "DJ at Strip Club" on a resume, I would pull that resume before the law student who has been unemployed/hasn't volunteered for a year. At least I know the DJ is capable of showing up to work sometimes and there's someone out there that thinks he's agreeable enough to work with.

OP - do you work at all? Try to get a part-time job somewhere or volunteer for legal aid, see if you can get a "yes" during an interview that's low stakes. Also, you'll have an answer for "what have you been doing since graduation?" And whatever it is, if you're a barista or at justice housing, it's better than being unemployed. It at least says you can work with people, and someone thinks you're worth being paid or trusts you with doing legal work.

Plus, with your part time job/volunteer work, it gives you something to talk about that distracts from your unemployment and lack of social skills. "What do I do? I make the best Cappuccino in New York City." It beats, "Yeah I've been unemployed, been looking for work." You just need shit to talk about, it makes controlling the conversation easier.

Are you a K-JD, you've worked before right?

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by kmanskey » Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My GPA is still on my resume because it is not a sub-3.0 GPA. I am skeptical of removing it because I heard that it could be interpreted as deceitful and they'll ask about it anyway. However, at this point I think I'll take it off.

I'm very interested in clerkships, and even interviewed for one with a federal judge. But overall, I've had limited success with applying on both the state and federal level.

I'm open to a wide variety of practice areas, but I'm trying to avoid ID at all costs.
T2 and below median grades? Again, I'm not a prestige whore at all (went to Ohio State and proud of it), but those jobs are likely way out of your league for right now. Stop wasting your time going for federal clerkships and change your perspective.
Would a specialty practice area like L&E be feasible?
I don't know how many different or more direct ways to say it -- you just need to get your first legal job. I've already told you that getting stuck in a practice area is largely bogus.

Agreed. I've seen so many grads turn down multiple decent offers based on their grades as related to their school because they believed something much better was bound to happen. Imo, T2 schools do a poor job on educating students of their realistic prospects.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm

Aptitude wrote:
Yeah, he doesn't come off as agreeable at all. Real air of negativity and arrogance, like he's too good for stuff.

OP just has to fake it till he makes it. It doesn't help that you're unemployed either. OP needs to get a job somewhere. Nothing looks worse on a resume than long periods of unemployment. Even if I saw something like "DJ at Strip Club" on a resume, I would pull that resume before the law student who has been unemployed/hasn't volunteered for a year.

OP - do you work at all? Try to get a part-time job somewhere or volunteer for legal aid, see if you can get a "yes" during an interview that's low stakes. Also, you'll have an answer for "what have you been doing since graduation?" And whatever it is, if you're a barista or at justice housing, it's better than being unemployed. It at least says you can work with people, and someone thinks you're worth being paid or trusts you with doing legal work.

Plus, with your part time job/volunteer work, it gives you something to talk about that distracts from your unemployment and lack of social skills. "What do I do? I make the best Cappuccino in New York City." It beats, "Yeah I've been unemployed, been looking for work." You just need shit to talk about, it makes controlling the conversation easier.
Yes, I work. However, it is not in any way related to law. I'd rather not say more about about my job.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by icansortofmath » Wed May 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Do doc reviews, become a paralegal, or whatever you can to get legal experience. Plenty of legal jobs out there with low barrier to entry that will let you fill your resume. When I was simmering at firms, I met tons of lawyers who were doing doc review. I think they put it on resume as something weird like “V10 Firm, legs consultant, due diligence on xxxx big case.”

It’s something. People know it means they couldn’t get job as associate but it’s still experience in biglaw environment that I suspect some firms will value. Unless you’re locked in a basement (which does happen... sometimes just a satellite office with zero chance to see full time associates) you should have networking opportunities.

And you make money to pay your bills. Which is important.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Aptitude » Wed May 15, 2019 1:28 pm

kmanskey wrote:
Agreed. I've seen so many grads turn down multiple decent offers based on their grades as related to their school because they believed something much better was bound to happen. Imo, T2 schools do a poor job on educating students of their realistic prospects.
I think it's more the mentality of the students than the school. A lot of career service offices T1 to T4 would tell a 3L or unemployed law student to take a job in less desirable practice area.

A $70,000-80,000 job in insurance defense, that could lead to $120,000 with good benefits at a Fortune 500 company is a good outcome. You could make six figures with job security and nice benefits at State Farm before turning 30. That's a great outcome for the vast majority of regular people who weren't born wealthy or don't live in San Jose/Palo Alto.

It's the mentality with a lot of law students, I've seen similar with some business school students too. You rarely see med students miss out on orthopedic surgery or dermatology, and just stay unemployed for a year because they think they really deserve to be at least an orthopedic surgeon, if not a neurosurgeon.

They just had a totally different vision of their life as an attorney that was disconnected from reality.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by QContinuum » Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm

Aptitude wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I never said I was aiming for biglaw or prestige. Firms, government agencies, and nonprofits are all on the table. I am also open to a wide variety of practice areas as long as it isn't ID.

Also, yes my plan would be to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree.
Don't get the hate against ID. It's way more cushy than a lot of other options out there (family law, foreclosure, evictions, collections). I have friends who do it, it's rough in the beginning but some of them are in cush in-house jobs with Fortune 500 benefits and nice hours. But, whatever floats your boat.
I second this. OP frankly isn't in any position at the moment to indulge the chip on their shoulder against ID. I don't get what's so bad about ID, especially relative to other options OP has claimed to be open to, such as hanging their own shingle as a solo with zero prior experience practicing law. An ID gig paying in the mid/high five figures would be a very solid outcome for a below-median T2 grad.

ID is also likely to pay better than many/most nonprofits, and at least on par with (if not better than) many/most government agencies (particularly at the local or state level).

FWIW, when people refer to "shitlaw" on TLS, I don't think that commonly includes the average ID gig. It more refers to things like temp doc review work where you're paid minimum wage by the hour. Or working for a solo or other tiny shop, and getting paid (effectively) minimum wage or less. Or setting up your own solo practice with zero previous legal experience under your belt. That's what people mean when they talk about "shitlaw." So I really don't get OP's hate for ID.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2019 7:41 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Aptitude wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I never said I was aiming for biglaw or prestige. Firms, government agencies, and nonprofits are all on the table. I am also open to a wide variety of practice areas as long as it isn't ID.

Also, yes my plan would be to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree.
Don't get the hate against ID. It's way more cushy than a lot of other options out there (family law, foreclosure, evictions, collections). I have friends who do it, it's rough in the beginning but some of them are in cush in-house jobs with Fortune 500 benefits and nice hours. But, whatever floats your boat.
I second this. OP frankly isn't in any position at the moment to indulge the chip on their shoulder against ID. I don't get what's so bad about ID, especially relative to other options OP has claimed to be open to, such as hanging their own shingle as a solo with zero prior experience practicing law. An ID gig paying in the mid/high five figures would be a very solid outcome for a below-median T2 grad.

ID is also likely to pay better than many/most nonprofits, and at least on par with (if not better than) many/most government agencies (particularly at the local or state level).

FWIW, when people refer to "shitlaw" on TLS, I don't think that commonly includes the average ID gig. It more refers to things like temp doc review work where you're paid minimum wage by the hour. Or working for a solo or other tiny shop, and getting paid (effectively) minimum wage or less. Or setting up your own solo practice with zero previous legal experience under your belt. That's what people mean when they talk about "shitlaw." So I really don't get OP's hate for ID.
Well here's what I see as the pros and cons of ID -

Pros:

- It's a job
- Good litigation experience (unless Worker's Comp. which mainly deals with administrative hearings).

Cons:

- Effectively High Billable Hours Requirement (insurance companies try to nickle and dime everything you do and won’t pay anything more than they have to, thus making it harder to meet your billiables)
- Low pay
- Most ID firms have reputations for being "sweatshops" and churning and burning through associates
- "ID Taint" (difficult to escape ID once you start)

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Aptitude » Wed May 15, 2019 8:09 pm

QContinuum wrote:
FWIW, when people refer to "shitlaw" on TLS, I don't think that commonly includes the average ID gig. It more refers to things like temp doc review work where you're paid minimum wage by the hour. Or working for a solo or other tiny shop, and getting paid (effectively) minimum wage or less. Or setting up your own solo practice with zero previous legal experience under your belt. That's what people mean when they talk about "shitlaw." So I really don't get OP's hate for ID.
A lot of the old TLS posters that left and a lot of 0L refer to anything that isn't Vault 50 or Circuit Court Clerkships as "shitlaw." Weird, because a lot of what they consider to be that end up being the easiest ways to make a lot of money. A lot of biglaw attorneys also burn out within a few years and fresh grads have problems finding jobs. I'm sure that delusion is a large part of the problem.

Generally though, the business/money advice on TLS is really bad. Especially reading through the business advice for solo attorneys. People here just have a really weird ideas of how to make money easier or how people become rich, especially through entrepreneurial activities. It's gotten a lot better, but I'd rather not take business investment advice from a law clerk or 3rd year associate. I think it's because law generally attracts well off people, but not rich people. And well off people tend to be professionals, but are risk adverse or don't have the personality for business or investing that actual rich people do.
Anonymous User wrote: Well here's what I see as the pros and cons of ID -
Do you have any offers from ID firms? If not, you're planning too far ahead and overthinking it. Get an offer first, then weigh the pros and cons.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by sparty99 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Aptitude wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I never said I was aiming for biglaw or prestige. Firms, government agencies, and nonprofits are all on the table. I am also open to a wide variety of practice areas as long as it isn't ID.

Also, yes my plan would be to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree.
Don't get the hate against ID. It's way more cushy than a lot of other options out there (family law, foreclosure, evictions, collections). I have friends who do it, it's rough in the beginning but some of them are in cush in-house jobs with Fortune 500 benefits and nice hours. But, whatever floats your boat.
I second this. OP frankly isn't in any position at the moment to indulge the chip on their shoulder against ID. I don't get what's so bad about ID, especially relative to other options OP has claimed to be open to, such as hanging their own shingle as a solo with zero prior experience practicing law. An ID gig paying in the mid/high five figures would be a very solid outcome for a below-median T2 grad.

ID is also likely to pay better than many/most nonprofits, and at least on par with (if not better than) many/most government agencies (particularly at the local or state level).

FWIW, when people refer to "shitlaw" on TLS, I don't think that commonly includes the average ID gig. It more refers to things like temp doc review work where you're paid minimum wage by the hour. Or working for a solo or other tiny shop, and getting paid (effectively) minimum wage or less. Or setting up your own solo practice with zero previous legal experience under your belt. That's what people mean when they talk about "shitlaw." So I really don't get OP's hate for ID.
Well here's what I see as the pros and cons of ID -

Pros:

- It's a job
- Good litigation experience (unless Worker's Comp. which mainly deals with administrative hearings).

Cons:

- Effectively High Billable Hours Requirement (insurance companies try to nickle and dime everything you do and won’t pay anything more than they have to, thus making it harder to meet your billiables)
- Low pay
- Most ID firms have reputations for being "sweatshops" and churning and burning through associates
- "ID Taint" (difficult to escape ID once you start)
OP is stupid. I made $80k and then low six figures in ID and had started interviewing for lateral big law jobs 1.5 years later. I am sure I made more then OP does now, but yet he is too good for ID. Now I work in big law and make market. It is not uncommon for lawyers at Gordon Rees, LBBS, Wilson Elser, and small to mid size ID firms to trade up. These people actually go to court, take depositions, go to trial, and prepare motions. The only taint is you not having legal experience two years after graduation, but that sounds like your fault with your plethora of excuses.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by wishywashy » Thu May 16, 2019 1:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Aptitude wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I never said I was aiming for biglaw or prestige. Firms, government agencies, and nonprofits are all on the table. I am also open to a wide variety of practice areas as long as it isn't ID.

Also, yes my plan would be to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree.
Don't get the hate against ID. It's way more cushy than a lot of other options out there (family law, foreclosure, evictions, collections). I have friends who do it, it's rough in the beginning but some of them are in cush in-house jobs with Fortune 500 benefits and nice hours. But, whatever floats your boat.
I second this. OP frankly isn't in any position at the moment to indulge the chip on their shoulder against ID. I don't get what's so bad about ID, especially relative to other options OP has claimed to be open to, such as hanging their own shingle as a solo with zero prior experience practicing law. An ID gig paying in the mid/high five figures would be a very solid outcome for a below-median T2 grad.

ID is also likely to pay better than many/most nonprofits, and at least on par with (if not better than) many/most government agencies (particularly at the local or state level).

FWIW, when people refer to "shitlaw" on TLS, I don't think that commonly includes the average ID gig. It more refers to things like temp doc review work where you're paid minimum wage by the hour. Or working for a solo or other tiny shop, and getting paid (effectively) minimum wage or less. Or setting up your own solo practice with zero previous legal experience under your belt. That's what people mean when they talk about "shitlaw." So I really don't get OP's hate for ID.
Well here's what I see as the pros and cons of ID -

Pros:

- It's a job
- Good litigation experience (unless Worker's Comp. which mainly deals with administrative hearings).

Cons:

- Effectively High Billable Hours Requirement (insurance companies try to nickle and dime everything you do and won’t pay anything more than they have to, thus making it harder to meet your billiables)
- Low pay
- Most ID firms have reputations for being "sweatshops" and churning and burning through associates
- "ID Taint" (difficult to escape ID once you start)

OP you need to compare the pros and cons of ID with the pros and cons of never getting a job as an attorney and people seeing 5+ years with no legal experience - to me the would be a hard bar from all but hanging out your own shingle and even that sounds like the start of a great malpractice story. Also, you are clearly tilting in favor of the cons (did you talk to any ID people in making that con list? You seem to have several ID people in this thread - who actually do that job - who disagree with you). Just because you can counter with a reason and you have some feeling to attach to it doesn't make that a good counter.

So far this sounds like your reality when someone asks why you aren't working in legal: "Why aren't you a lawyer? Well, I cut out all the jobs I could have got and focused on all the ones I couldn't and somehow it didn't work out - but its not my fault because I had reasons for not wanting all the jobs I had a shot at getting. Even 350 denials later I still believe I don't like those jobs I never tried nor interned in nor asked around to real world folks about. You might think that 350 apps and denials and strikeouts would send me a message but nope - I've got reasons for not liking jobs I have never done."

You keep comparing things as if you have another job in hand that is a legal job you don't want to switch from. Also, you are assuming a yes from the ID people (or the PI people or the debt collector people). At least apply and get a yes and then decide. And for the love try out the work before you say you don't like or at least sit down with a real person who does that job and talk in real life.

Lastly, you should try to compare the pros and cons of trying to lateral out of an ID job in five years versus lateraling out of Starbucks. If you have the money and/or bandwith on student loans to go to computer science then at least get the acceptances from those school in hand before you use that as a realistic alternative.

If you want someone to tell you to quit so you can feel better about yourself and know "you tried", well sorry man, you're going to have to admit defeat on your own. You should get some ID/Debt collector/Personal Injury/Family law/etc. job offers first.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2019 6:12 am

Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu May 16, 2019 8:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.
OP can you provide more details about what “quit” entails? Like assume you don’t succeed through September and follow through on your “plan” to “quit.” What, specifically, will you be doing then?

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by omar1 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:46 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.
OP can you provide more details about what “quit” entails? Like assume you don’t succeed through September and follow through on your “plan” to “quit.” What, specifically, will you be doing then?
From your posts, including this one, it sound like you're searching just for the sake of telling people (maybe family? that could explain why you're keeping a count of how many applications you sent out) and to make yourself feel better. This is not the mindset you should have IF you want to get a job. You have to want it and you have to really push for it. You should treat your search as a "full time-job," i.e. spend 40 hours a week sending out apps, trying to set up lunches, speaking to your school's career services etc.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2019 9:07 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.
OP can you provide more details about what “quit” entails? Like assume you don’t succeed through September and follow through on your “plan” to “quit.” What, specifically, will you be doing then?
"Quit" means stop looking for legal jobs.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by MGH1989 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:27 am

Since Opie is unwilling to take any advice I’ll hijack his thread. I’m a 2018 grad from a T1. Graduated below median-ish. No journal, but was on Moot court. I also interned at a DA office between my 2L and 3L summer. I have been doing doc review since September. Actually got a job offer for in house commercial real estate in October, which I turned down (probably stupidly, but didn’t wanna do straight transactional). I have had a number of interviews since the offer I turned down but obviously no job yet. I’ve reached out to legal aid and I’m gonna start doing volunteer work to bolster my resume. Been pretty depressed over all of this tbh. Unlike opie im willing to do much of anything if I feel like I can get good experience that I can market towards becoming a litigator. I just feel like my market is so saturated, but I’m kinda stuck here for personal reasons, which is fine I like it here but there aren’t too man law grads here. I also feel like jobs seldom pop up around here so when they do I’m competitive with tons of people.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by QContinuum » Thu May 16, 2019 10:55 am

MGH1989 wrote:Since Opie is unwilling to take any advice I’ll hijack his thread. I’m a 2018 grad from a T1. Graduated below median-ish. No journal, but was on Moot court. I also interned at a DA office between my 2L and 3L summer. I have been doing doc review since September. Actually got a job offer for in house commercial real estate in October, which I turned down (probably stupidly, but didn’t wanna do straight transactional). I have had a number of interviews since the offer I turned down but obviously no job yet. I’ve reached out to legal aid and I’m gonna start doing volunteer work to bolster my resume. Been pretty depressed over all of this tbh. Unlike opie im willing to do much of anything if I feel like I can get good experience that I can market towards becoming a litigator. I just feel like my market is so saturated, but I’m kinda stuck here for personal reasons, which is fine I like it here but there aren’t too man law grads here. I also feel like jobs seldom pop up around here so when they do I’m competitive with tons of people.
Well, have you tried ID?

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by QContinuum » Thu May 16, 2019 10:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.
OP can you provide more details about what “quit” entails? Like assume you don’t succeed through September and follow through on your “plan” to “quit.” What, specifically, will you be doing then?
"Quit" means stop looking for legal jobs.
September's not that far away. You previously floated the idea of going into CS. If so, have you looked at whether you would be in a position (both financially and in terms of qualifications, like having a sufficient technical background and a sufficient GRE score) to apply to CS programs in September? Even if yes, what would you be doing between September 2019 and when your CS program (assuming you get into a reputable one) starts in September 2020?

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2019 11:09 am

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright, I've come to a decision. I'm going to continue searching (including shitlaw) until September and then quit. Thank you guys for your help.
OP can you provide more details about what “quit” entails? Like assume you don’t succeed through September and follow through on your “plan” to “quit.” What, specifically, will you be doing then?
"Quit" means stop looking for legal jobs.
September's not that far away. You previously floated the idea of going into CS. If so, have you looked at whether you would be in a position (both financially and in terms of qualifications, like having a sufficient technical background and a sufficient GRE score) to apply to CS programs in September? Even if yes, what would you be doing between September 2019 and when your CS program (assuming you get into a reputable one) starts in September 2020?
My plan would be to take introductory CS or EE classes (I have the math requisites) while working at my current job. My job isn't bad, just dead-end. I would also look into getting a CCNA. I already have a CIPP/US.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2019 11:12 am

QContinuum wrote:
MGH1989 wrote:Since Opie is unwilling to take any advice I’ll hijack his thread. I’m a 2018 grad from a T1. Graduated below median-ish. No journal, but was on Moot court. I also interned at a DA office between my 2L and 3L summer. I have been doing doc review since September. Actually got a job offer for in house commercial real estate in October, which I turned down (probably stupidly, but didn’t wanna do straight transactional). I have had a number of interviews since the offer I turned down but obviously no job yet. I’ve reached out to legal aid and I’m gonna start doing volunteer work to bolster my resume. Been pretty depressed over all of this tbh. Unlike opie im willing to do much of anything if I feel like I can get good experience that I can market towards becoming a litigator. I just feel like my market is so saturated, but I’m kinda stuck here for personal reasons, which is fine I like it here but there aren’t too man law grads here. I also feel like jobs seldom pop up around here so when they do I’m competitive with tons of people.
Well, have you tried ID?
Would I, yes. I have even interviewed with one and have yet to hear back. I just never see them posted.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Aptitude » Thu May 16, 2019 12:43 pm

MGH1989 wrote:Since Opie is unwilling to take any advice I’ll hijack his thread. I’m a 2018 grad from a T1. Graduated below median-ish. No journal, but was on Moot court. I also interned at a DA office between my 2L and 3L summer. I have been doing doc review since September. Actually got a job offer for in house commercial real estate in October, which I turned down (probably stupidly, but didn’t wanna do straight transactional). I have had a number of interviews since the offer I turned down but obviously no job yet. I’ve reached out to legal aid and I’m gonna start doing volunteer work to bolster my resume. Been pretty depressed over all of this tbh. Unlike opie im willing to do much of anything if I feel like I can get good experience that I can market towards becoming a litigator. I just feel like my market is so saturated, but I’m kinda stuck here for personal reasons, which is fine I like it here but there aren’t too man law grads here. I also feel like jobs seldom pop up around here so when they do I’m competitive with tons of people.
You don't have much to worry about - you've been offered so you know how to apply, interview, and get jobs. A lot of good small firm jobs are rarely ever posted publicly. But if you get to know some of the partners at these sub 20 attorney firms, they're often times looking to hire or contract out work. You just have to network with them, then it becomes easy. Just find a common interest that old white-collar people like, golf, skiing, tennis, squash, poker, fantasy sports, cuisine, the stock market. If you ask for "informational interviews" it's tough to get much out of that and takes a lot of time to develop a connection. If you're out at the driving range or talking about the market at happy hour, a lot of times they'll tell you to apply to openings at their firms and that you should work there.
QContinuum wrote: September's not that far away. You previously floated the idea of going into CS. If so, have you looked at whether you would be in a position (both financially and in terms of qualifications, like having a sufficient technical background and a sufficient GRE score) to apply to CS programs in September? Even if yes, what would you be doing between September 2019 and when your CS program (assuming you get into a reputable one) starts in September 2020?
.

Grad school for CS isn't typically worth it, unless you're an immigrant seeking a visa. Trying to get a high GRE score is a waste of time in his scenario, unless he legitimately wants to get a PhD and do research.

If all he wants is a well paying job, OP should just go to a coding bootcamp or learn on his own, then focus on his github or getting a high ranking on hackerrank. Can get a bachelors/masters if he wants more in depth background, but he needs to actually show he's built stuff, and can pass whiteboard interviews which is worth far more than GPA/Master's degree out of a reputable program.

Unlike in law, a high GRE score and Master's out of a "reputable" program doesn't mean much if you can't get past the rounds of whiteboard interviews. There are students with 2.0 GPAs out of directional state schools that just leetcode all day, and land jobs at FANG+. Startups also mainly look at github and some hire directly off hackerrank instead of GPA.

As far as electrical engineering? That's a pain in the ass. Most liberal arts grads think law school is so stressful :lol: Just wait until electromagnetic class. A lot of people differential equations to be difficult too. You're going to wish you were back in the days when all you had to do was worry about "reading." Remember how in law school people were upset with Bs, and a C was really bad, and you hated the curve? You'll love the curve and hope it saves you from getting that F. People getting an 8% or 23% on a Final is not that rare. Also, avoid any 8am labs.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu May 16, 2019 1:37 pm

OP, why is it necessary to plan to “quit” at all? Like why is that a necessary facet of your life plan?

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Donkeykong28 » Sun May 19, 2019 10:25 am

Aptitude wrote:You don't have much to worry about - you've been offered so you know how to apply, interview, and get jobs. A lot of good small firm jobs are rarely ever posted publicly. But if you get to know some of the partners at these sub 20 attorney firms, they're often times looking to hire or contract out work. You just have to network with them, then it becomes easy. Just find a common interest that old white-collar people like, golf, skiing, tennis, squash, poker, fantasy sports, cuisine, the stock market. If you ask for "informational interviews" it's tough to get much out of that and takes a lot of time to develop a connection. If you're out at the driving range or talking about the market at happy hour, a lot of times they'll tell you to apply to openings at their firms and that you should work there.
I think this is all great advice, and I love how optimistic and encouraging some of you are towards anonymous strangers on this forum... Although, I can’t help but feel like a lot of the networking tips here are predicated on the assumption that we are all strapping young men privy to chatting it up the stock market with the old geyser next to us at the country club. Do you think young women lawyers should engage in similar networking tactics? I wouldn’t mind talking shop with any lawyer of any gender over a beer, but I feel like it’s taboo for young women to form these casual professional relationships with older men in the type of settings you mentioned. I sometimes feel like I would love to be as casual about my networking as possible, but don’t want to limit myself to only networking with other women in social settings because doing so would neglect a very valuable half of the profession that I could learn a lot from. Do you have any tips on how to address this elephant in the room?
Last edited by QContinuum on Sun May 19, 2019 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to fix quote formatting.

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Re: When is it time to quit the legal job search?

Post by Aptitude » Mon May 20, 2019 4:12 pm

Donkeykong28 wrote: I think this is all great advice, and I love how optimistic and encouraging some of you are towards anonymous strangers on this forum... Although, I can’t help but feel like a lot of the networking tips here are predicated on the assumption that we are all strapping young men privy to chatting it up the stock market with the old geyser next to us at the country club.
That's your assumption that you have to be with the old geysers at the country club.

There's no shame in my networking game. If some female Exec I know from Jane Street or whatever is at Soul Cycle, then I'm down to find freedom in my sprints to Tay Tay's next hit. Aspire to inspire, inhale intent and exhale expectation, you're damn right I'll be in my Soul Cycle shirt and commiting to my climbs.

You should just network and not care.
Do you think young women lawyers should engage in similar networking tactics?
You can't win at the table if you never place a bet.
I wouldn’t mind talking shop with any lawyer of any gender over a beer, but I feel like it’s taboo for young women to form these casual professional relationships with older men in the type of settings you mentioned.
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