to big law folk: what is the goal if not partner Forum

[Anonymous User]

maybe I've hit peak cynicism this last month but I'm genuinely curious what people's plans are for their careers when they don't make partner. I have no interest in making partner but that certainty is causing me anxiety -- what am I on this hampster wheel for? the money will eventually dry up, just when you are at the point in your life where you need it the most. what do people do? idk maybe I've hit peak disillusionment -- I don't plan stuff on weekends because I'll inevitably get blown up, I'm estranged from friends, my gf is exhausted by my misery. I've saved a lot but it's not enough to retire on. and I'm coming near the big law "track" but no clear place to go. every idea of cool post law job I thought of is turning out to be a complete pipe dream. curious what keeps mid senior folks and how you find your mojo in this terrible industry

[Anonymous User]

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much, and #2, biglaw is the best way to build a resume that will get me into something stable and with decent pay after I leave.

Of course I often feel the same as you - my friendships and other relationships are suffering because of this, I’m not as healthy in a lot of ways as I could be, and on the worst days it feels like I’m taking one of the few remaining prime years of my life and lighting it on fire in exchange for $250,000. But I just think that’s probably worth it when compared to whatever Option B is. Plenty of people hate their jobs and work a lot for $40k a year. There just isn’t a law job (or very few of them anyway) with super interesting, fulfilling work for clients who are actually improving the world where you dont think about the job between 5:30p and 9:00a and get 8 weeks vacation all while bringing home $180k.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 6th year and starting to have the same thoughts. I haven't hated every second of biglaw, but lately I've gotten tired of the pressure/responsibility/work. My experience hasn't been that bad hours-wise, but working for demanding people who notice and call you out for mistakes is tiring -- even though the people I work for also tell me good job/are extremely fair. I just hate having to bring my A game constantly.

I think you are like me in that the knowledge that this is temporary weighs on you/prompts a certain level of anxiety because you need to figure out what is happening next. That is definitely the case with me, in part because I'm terrified of getting "the talk" without having anything lined up and being forced to settle for something bad. I've seen that happen to a few senior associates I know. Generally, I think it's better to leave early to something you'd be OK with than to stay too late and not have the next thing planned.

[Anonymous User]

Get an in house gig at a big bank that pays $250k all in. That is my goal.

[shock259]

Goals:
1. Bank a bunch of money while in biglaw. Stay in as long as I can stomach it.
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.
3. Put time and effort into hobbies, relationships, and whatever else makes me happy.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
1. Bank a bunch of money while in biglaw. Stay in as long as I can stomach it.
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.
3. Put time and effort into hobbies, relationships, and whatever else makes me happy.

Combination of this with get an in-house gig that pays 250k as above poster mentioned. My goal is to quit with 500k liquid assets which should be at the end of big law year 3. I'm already 1 year 9 months in, so exactly at the 50% mark -- just need to chug for another year and 8 months. I've done the math and I can (though not sure if I will) take a pay cut all the way down to 150k and still hit my financial goals of 1M in liquid assets by age 40. Obviously earlier is better but I'm not willing to do this 24-7 on call schedule for longer than another 2 years and want to start having a healthier life when I hit 31 next year.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

Agreed. I left as a third year. Base was only $165k on the move but annual grants and bonus of $50k each. The grants vest over a long period of time, but its still something. Losing out on the huge cash comp hurts, but you don't leave biglaw and make nothing. Its ridiculous people even talk about not having opportunity after that kind of experience.

[Anonymous User]

First year that just left biglaw and moving to a plaintiff's firm. Took a considerable cash salary hit, but I should make about 33-50% more than biglaw market with the expected yearly bonus. Oh and no hour requirement. There are other things out there than biglaw.

[shock259]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

OK. As another anecdote, I went in house and I now make less money. And it's the same situation for everyone taking the same path that I know in my secondary market. But feel free to aim for the stars, anon.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

OK. As another anecdote, I went in house and I now make less money. And it's the same situation for everyone taking the same path that I know in my secondary market. But feel free to aim for the stars, anon.

How much of a hit did you take? I think you will generally make somewhat less (I do, was $165 base anon above) but you will still make good money. The problem is you don't get the 20-30k raises every year you do in biglaw once you move in-house.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

It's not about confidence. I think it is a realization that big-law essentially is really a sh*t industry. You develop skills etc. but after 8 years, have to go find something else to do. Making partner is ridiculously hard, and unless you have clients, lateralling to a lesser prestige firm isn't even doable. Sure, the pay is good for those 8 years, but it seems anomalous to me to any other industry that the better you get at your job, the less runaway you ultimately have.

As for the person who mentioned moving to a p shop, that is something I would be interested in, but I have friends on that side of the v who consistently bill 2500-2700 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Another person in biglaw with no interest in partnership. I joined my firm after clerking and still have considerable student loan obligations. Once those have been dispatched, I’ll start looking for my exit: probably in government if there’s a change in administrations in 2021, or in academia if I can land a fellowship (which is a long shot). Mid level associates from my firm routinely go to gov’t or teaching or politics, although the path from here to there is murky and seems heavily connection-dependent. I am hopeful that after a couple years paying my dues here (literally and figuratively) I can carve out some alternatives for myself and pursue a career that I am more passionate about.

If I fail, I’ll probably lateral before I’m pushed out and wait it out a few more years. Worst case scenario, I go get a different degree and leave law behind

[shock259]

How much of a hit did you take? I think you will generally make somewhat less (I do, was $165 base anon above) but you will still make good money. The problem is you don't get the 20-30k raises every year you do in biglaw once you move in-house.

It was a sizable hit, but in light of the overall package, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. At the end of the day it's still really good money. And I've now got a strict 8-4 - no weekend work, almost never check my email at night, etc.

I did a rough salary calculation that was instructive when I was moving. I compared my rough biglaw hourly rate (billables plus admin time). Not the rate I bill out at, but the rough rate the firm paid me for each hour I worked. I compared that to my future hourly rate (8 hours/day). It was very close. So in terms of raw dollars, the cut was big. But ~25% less pay for ~25% less work? Think many associates might take that. Not to mention my stress level in house is not even in the same ballpark as it was at a firm.

Definitely agree with you on the raises. I got a promotion and raise after my first year, which was pretty substantial. But everything since then has been a lot less.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a senior associate in big law, and...no idea what my goal is. Mostly I never expected to make it this far (thought I would have burned out ages ago). Being a partner doesn't sound great, and I don't really want to have to hustle to make partner anyway, so we'll see what happens in the next couple of years. Maybe I'll get stuck in counsel purgatory for a while, and eventually pushed out. My life isn't miserable, and the money is amazing, so until I find something better (or...get told to leave) I'll just ride it out and stockpile some cash for later when I figure out the next step.

[RedPurpleBlue]

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

I think a lot of posters here also really just can't grasp the idea that $250k in-house in Chicago is better than $350k at a big firm in NYC. That $100k pay cut is a massive quality of life increase.

[DoveBodyWash]

Honestly just kind of waiting for wave of boomer retirement/die-off and hope it somehow improves my prospects (vaguely defined)

[Anonymous User]

2nd year biglaw lit associate in secondary market here. Coming off a 300 hour month I was also thinking about this (at least more often than I normally do). We have had senior lit associates leave for in house roles and government, but not sure I'm interested in either. Not keen on making a ton less in government (I have massive loans) and not sure I'd like a lit role in house.

I think I would prefer to stay in a firm environment, but it would have to be a much smaller firm. I think my goal would be lateraling to a smaller firm in a few years where I could eventually make partner. Query 1) if I could actually do that; 2) what kind of earning potential I'd have; and 3) if the lifestyle gets much better in such a role

Basically I want a job that pays a good amount and doesn't suck my life dry. Should've gone to biz school

[Anonymous User]

I never wanted to be partner either. The industry is broken; it rewards anxiety and neuroticism, and like a bad relationship, it keeps asking us to anticipate its needs while giving no shits about ours. I’m in a secondary market, so the goal is burn another year, move south, buy a house, go to a 9-5 at the fed or local government.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 6th year and starting to have the same thoughts. I haven't hated every second of biglaw, but lately I've gotten tired of the pressure/responsibility/work. My experience hasn't been that bad hours-wise, but working for demanding people who notice and call you out for mistakes is tiring -- even though the people I work for also tell me good job/are extremely fair. I just hate having to bring my A game constantly.

Mid-level in a specialized regulatory practice and this has been my experience. The hours are (relatively) good, but every time a client calls asking why I put a comma somewhere in a survey I did six months ago, it drives me crazy and I have this constant ambient anxiety because of it.

I've been looking at various job listings for a while to get a sense of what skills I should be getting to go in house or to gov, but my practice area is really too specific to be competitive for anything outside of it. My plan has been to try and work with some partners that cover some of these broader areas of law so I have better opportunities to leave. I have my goals but I'm not sure exactly how I'll get there. I'm also worried that the hours at in-house will still be terrible.

[sparty99]

maybe I've hit peak cynicism this last month but I'm genuinely curious what people's plans are for their careers when they don't make partner. I have no interest in making partner but that certainty is causing me anxiety -- what am I on this hampster wheel for? the money will eventually dry up, just when you are at the point in your life where you need it the most. what do people do? idk maybe I've hit peak disillusionment -- I don't plan stuff on weekends because I'll inevitably get blown up, I'm estranged from friends, my gf is exhausted by my misery. I've saved a lot but it's not enough to retire on. and I'm coming near the big law "track" but no clear place to go. every idea of cool post law job I thought of is turning out to be a complete pipe dream. curious what keeps mid senior folks and how you find your mojo in this terrible industry

The goal is to make "of counsel" or last as long as they will have you while stocking up cash and/or paying off debt. There are plenty of other opportunities in the legal field. But I don't know why people sound so miserable. There are a plethora of opportunities in the legal field for experienced lawyers. There is in-house mostly for transnational and litigation for federal government, state, or local government. Or you can go to a smaller firm. Or you can become a head hunter for a year. And after a year, go do recruiting for a firm or a totally different industry or work admissions at a law school or just leave the industry altogether. Its not doom and gloom. Just enjoy the money or get out. Sheesh.

[QContinuum]

The goal is to make "of counsel" or last as long as they will have you while stocking up cash and/or paying off debt. There are plenty of other opportunities in the legal field. But I don't know why people sound so miserable. There are a plethora of opportunities in the legal field for experienced lawyers. There is in-house mostly for transnational and litigation for federal government, state, or local government. Or you can go to a smaller firm. Or you can become a head hunter for a year. And after a year, go do recruiting for a firm or a totally different industry or work admissions at a law school or just leave the industry altogether. Its not doom and gloom. Just enjoy the money or get out. Sheesh.

This post started out strong, then progressively deteriorated starting around halfway through, to the point where the second half directly contradicts the first half. The first half touted the "plethora of opportunities in the legal field for experienced lawyers." The second half suggested a bunch of non-J.D.-required jobs, from headhunting to recruiting to law school admissions and the coup de grace, "just leave the industry altogether."

So, not sure what sparty thinks. First-half sparty rebuts the doom and gloom; second-half sparty more or less argues the doom and gloom is entirely warranted. (Most people do not go to law school or pursue BigLaw with an eye toward migrating to "recruiting for a totally different industry" down the road.)

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

OK. As another anecdote, I went in house and I now make less money. And it's the same situation for everyone taking the same path that I know in my secondary market. But feel free to aim for the stars, anon.

Yeah, I'm always highly skeptical of anonymous individuals claiming sky high in house salaries. During the interview process, I've personally discussed salary specifics with a number of companies in different industries, and have talked closely with friends who have gone in house as well. Outside of the occasional unicorn job at Renaissance or Google or wherever, no one is meeting their biglaw comp when they leave, let alone substantially increasing it. And the reputable public evidence available (e.g., the Robert Half salary guide) confirms that.

[sparty99]

The goal is to make "of counsel" or last as long as they will have you while stocking up cash and/or paying off debt. There are plenty of other opportunities in the legal field. But I don't know why people sound so miserable. There are a plethora of opportunities in the legal field for experienced lawyers. There is in-house mostly for transnational and litigation for federal government, state, or local government. Or you can go to a smaller firm. Or you can become a head hunter for a year. And after a year, go do recruiting for a firm or a totally different industry or work admissions at a law school or just leave the industry altogether. Its not doom and gloom. Just enjoy the money or get out. Sheesh.

This post started out strong, then progressively deteriorated starting around halfway through, to the point where the second half directly contradicts the first half. The first half touted the "plethora of opportunities in the legal field for experienced lawyers." The second half suggested a bunch of non-J.D.-required jobs, from headhunting to recruiting to law school admissions and the coup de grace, "just leave the industry altogether."

So, not sure what sparty thinks. First-half sparty rebuts the doom and gloom; second-half sparty more or less argues the doom and gloom is entirely warranted. (Most people do not go to law school or pursue BigLaw with an eye toward migrating to "recruiting for a totally different industry" down the road.)

The moral of the story is that most people wont make Partner nor want to make Partner, so either you become of counsel or you leave. Nevertheless, stock up cash and pay off debt until that occurs and don't waste time worrying about what is next. Who the hell knows what is next.

[Anonymous User]

Goals:
2. Go in house or take a non-legal job with a strict 9-5 schedule and low pressure. Make less money but that's fine given #1.

I have no intention of gunning for partner; my plan has always been 3 years and out, and even that seems challenging at times. But I stay in biglaw for two reasons: #1, no other job on the planet would pay me close to as much,

I don’t know where this trope got started, but it’s patently false. As an anecdote, of all the associates who have left my particular group to go in-house over the past five or so years (a healthy number), all but one have had their salary matched or improved upon by their next employer. The pessimism on this board is honestly pathetic. Have some self-confidence.

OK. As another anecdote, I went in house and I now make less money. And it's the same situation for everyone taking the same path that I know in my secondary market. But feel free to aim for the stars, anon.

Yeah, I'm always highly skeptical of anonymous individuals claiming sky high in house salaries. During the interview process, I've personally discussed salary specifics with a number of companies in different industries, and have talked closely with friends who have gone in house as well. Outside of the occasional unicorn job at Renaissance or Google or wherever, no one is meeting their biglaw comp when they leave, let alone substantially increasing it. And the reputable public evidence available (e.g., the Robert Half salary guide) confirms that.

I’m the anon from above and honestly couldn’t care less what you believe. Ironically, another colleague in my group gave notice TODAY that they are taking an in-house job and informed me separately they it was for an increase in pay. But by all means, continue thinking that all these people are unicorns and that your post-Big Law value is sub-six figures. Makes no difference to me.