Bottom 25% folks: please share your stories! Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm also bottom25% from T-13, so I get this OP: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... #p10379462. That said, I never regret attending my current school or choosing the law school path.

GPA is a heavy blow to my self-esteem. You might be assuming that I haven't worked hard at law school. But I have. Everyone works hard at law school, but there are simply too many brilliant people.

For those who used to be bottom at your law schools, please share your story and offer some hopes to folks who are still looking for postgraduate employment. All kinds of stories welcome, especially stories regarding the following questions:

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?
b. How did you end up where you are today?
c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?
d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

I’m not sure where I fell at my T20-25 school (certainly below median), but I made a lot of unusual moves to get where I am now... at least based on this board’s general consensus. I started working as a prosecutor where the office didn’t care about grades. From there I jumped to a small firm (handful of attorneys), then managed to get into a national firm (probably identified as midlaw around here because it didn’t pay market) and now I work for the DOJ. I disregarded traditional advice and never stayed at one job just to be there for a certain amount of time. I felt like I was always looking and applying for jobs almost as soon as I landed my next until I finally got a spot at the DOJ. At times I definitely fielded the “why do you move around so much” questions, and I suspect it probably lost me a few interviews in the long haul, but it was worth it. It was my goal all along and I knew my grades weren’t going to get me there.

Many of my colleagues from law school or from my first few jobs that were in the same boat as me currently work at insurance defense mills billing 2000 hours for sub-100k salaries or for insurance companies making the same. I’m glad I followed my gut.

Edit: to answer a few of your direct questions:
I never put my GPA on my resume because it wasn’t good. I mass mailed for my first job. My grades came up when I tried to use a recruiter a few times, and I’m sure firms dinged me for grades all the time. If the employer asked for transcript, I provided it. If they didn’t, then I avoided it.

[synergy]

I’m not sure where I fell at my T20-25 school (certainly below median), but I made a lot of unusual moves to get where I am now... at least based on this board’s general consensus. I started working as a prosecutor where the office didn’t care about grades. From there I jumped to a small firm (handful of attorneys), then managed to get into a national firm (probably identified as midlaw around here because it didn’t pay market) and now I work for the DOJ. I disregarded traditional advice and never stayed at one job just to be there for a certain amount of time. I felt like I was always looking and applying for jobs almost as soon as I landed my next until I finally got a spot at the DOJ. At times I definitely fielded the “why do you move around so much” questions, and I suspect it probably lost me a few interviews in the long haul, but it was worth it. It was my goal all along and I knew my grades weren’t going to get me there.

Many of my colleagues from law school or from my first few jobs that were in the same boat as me currently work at insurance defense mills billing 2000 hours for sub-100k salaries or for insurance companies making the same. I’m glad I followed my gut.

Edit: to answer a few of your direct questions:
I never put my GPA on my resume because it wasn’t good. I mass mailed for my first job. My grades came up when I tried to use a recruiter a few times, and I’m sure firms dinged me for grades all the time. If the employer asked for transcript, I provided it. If they didn’t, then I avoided it.

If you don't mind, I had a few questions. When you say you didn't stick around at each job for very long, how short are we talking? 1-2 years each? And how did you go from small firm to national firm? Thanks!

And OP, my responses below:

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?

Networking into an in-house job

b. How did you end up where you are today?

My first job gave me good experience and made me marketable enough for similar in-house jobs in my industry at more senior levels. I've gotten plenty of interviews and grades or my lack of law firm experience never come up.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?

No

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

N/A

[Anonymous User]

I wasn't bottom 25% (I don't think) but most of my friends and I were below median ranging somewhere from bottom 5% to 40%ish at Cornell. Fortunate enough to report that all secured SA positions from OCI. I think once you are in the 40th to 60th percentile, OCI is really much more about interviewing abilities (soft skills).

I would prioritize networking and bidding intelligently. In other words, don't bid on Cravath, bid for firms in the V-50th-100th range.

[Anonymous User]

Adding a bit to my post from above.

The link referenced by the original OP is actually just plain wrong. If there's no advantage to being a non-URM under median at a T-14, I don't think any of my friends would have jobs. In fact, the precise reason for attending Cornell is so you can be safely below median and not have to sweat OCI.

Based on my anecdotal experience, the strike outs at OCI were not usually in relation to grades.

[Wild Card]

OCI. I had 32 screeners, 5 callbacks, and 1 offer.

[Anonymous User]

Bottom 25% at HYS, finished with a 3.0. Currently a senior associate at an amlaw 100 in DC making market.

a. How did you get your first job out of law school? Got a summer associate position from OCI at a V100 in DC.

b. How did you end up where you are today? Lateraled after 4 years to my current firm due to salary compression for midlevels at the old firm.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews? During the OCI process, yeah, I had one firm read down my transcript and ask me about my grades (obviously didn't get a callback there!). Once I got past screeners no one has ever asked, and I didn't bring up grades in screeners unless directly asked - I would rather the screeners like me and then be surprised to find out I tanked my 1L year but maybe want to go to bat for me, than write me off in the middle of an interview.

When I was lateraling, there were positions I was perfect for at higher ranked firms but who had GPA cutoffs, and they straight up wouldn't talk to me at all - just auto-reject. So anyone who was talking to me already saw the grades and either didn't care, or assumed that I had a bad 1L year (which I did) but did fine later and clearly could keep a job for multiple years in a niche area. Some firms are just pumped to get someone from HYS and are willing to take someone below 25% just because they know that clients etc. are never going to see your transcript. It's really low risk - most associates don't make it to be partners anyway, so if you can get someone with the HYS on their resume and train them to be a decent associate, you've made a decent investment. I personally think the HYS brand is kind of garbage and that HYS students/grads aren't any smarter/better associates than those at other law schools, but I'm not going to tell potential employers that we're all a bunch of dummies.

I do think it helps that I'm pretty good at interviews and like, don't come across as someone you would hate to work with or be annoyed by. I wouldn't say I'm the most charming person in the world, but I'm definitely charm-adjacent.

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers? Nope, I just send it and they can decide if they're going to be so wedded to an arbitrary cutoff based on something that happened years ago that they'll miss out on a great employee. I know it's held me back some, and was particularly stressful in law school/during the first couple of years after I graduated, but now I straight up tell people I did poorly in law school because I think it's annoying when people act like acing property 6 years ago makes you a good tax attorney or something.

[Anonymous User]

I’m not sure where I fell at my T20-25 school (certainly below median), but I made a lot of unusual moves to get where I am now... at least based on this board’s general consensus. I started working as a prosecutor where the office didn’t care about grades. From there I jumped to a small firm (handful of attorneys), then managed to get into a national firm (probably identified as midlaw around here because it didn’t pay market) and now I work for the DOJ. I disregarded traditional advice and never stayed at one job just to be there for a certain amount of time. I felt like I was always looking and applying for jobs almost as soon as I landed my next until I finally got a spot at the DOJ. At times I definitely fielded the “why do you move around so much” questions, and I suspect it probably lost me a few interviews in the long haul, but it was worth it. It was my goal all along and I knew my grades weren’t going to get me there.

Many of my colleagues from law school or from my first few jobs that were in the same boat as me currently work at insurance defense mills billing 2000 hours for sub-100k salaries or for insurance companies making the same. I’m glad I followed my gut.

Edit: to answer a few of your direct questions:
I never put my GPA on my resume because it wasn’t good. I mass mailed for my first job. My grades came up when I tried to use a recruiter a few times, and I’m sure firms dinged me for grades all the time. If the employer asked for transcript, I provided it. If they didn’t, then I avoided it.

If you don't mind, I had a few questions. When you say you didn't stick around at each job for very long, how short are we talking? 1-2 years each? And how did you go from small firm to national firm? Thanks!

And OP, my responses below:

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?

Networking into an in-house job

b. How did you end up where you are today?

My first job gave me good experience and made me marketable enough for similar in-house jobs in my industry at more senior levels. I've gotten plenty of interviews and grades or my lack of law firm experience never come up.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?

No

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

N/A

I’m the quoted anon. So I didn’t stay anywhere more than 2 years, and I left one job before a year (had actually been interviewing 5-6 months in). I ended up going to a relatively new (few years since opening) satellite office of a national firm when making the move from my small firm and I think I was actually given the salary of an associate with less experience than me. The firm didn’t pay market, either, but I felt like the name brand was important to getting into the federal government. I was extremely flexible geographically. When I say I applied everywhere and often, I’m talking hundreds of applications.

[Anonymous User]

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?
b. How did you end up where you are today?
c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?
d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

I was sub 3.0 GPA after 1L (so going into OCI with like a 2.9 GPa and 3 B-'s on my transcript). I was around bottom 5-10% at Penn.

a. I got lucky and got a job through our regional OCI program. I did a total of about 60-70 screeners through Regionals, OCI and mass mail, and received about 5 or 6 total callbacks, and got 2 offers. FWIW, I have constantly been told that I interview very well.
b. Still at my first firm that I started at...only been out of law school for 2 years.
c. GPA came up sometimes, but I often brought it up myself because I knew it was the elephant in the room and I had a whole pitch to explain it away and why it wasn't representative of my ability to be successful in a law firm.
d. Yes ashamed, but not unwilling because if they ask for it and I don't send it, I certainly won't be getting an interview.

I will say, I did a few lateral interviews about a year into practicing, and grades came up every time, and my recruiter ultimately told me that grades were the reason I didn't get an offer from a firm that I did 3 rounds of interviews with (and they even had to fly me in for the final round of interviews). I'm hoping grades start to matter less once I am a 3rd year and hopefully will continually matter less and less each year after that, but it is still disheartening that I would never be able to lateral to certain firms no matter how skilled of an attorney I become because they have strict grade cutoffs that apply even to partners.

It's a bullshit antiquated system, but it is what it is and the bright side is that you will always have the t-13 name on your resume.

[Anonymous User]

I was bottom 25% from a T2.

A. I landed at my first job through networking.
B. Experience made me more marketable and there was less focus on grades. Also because I can bring in some business.
C. Grades did not come up for some interviews; however, I went on many interviews where grades did come up and it wasn’t pretty. If grades came up usually I can count on being rejected.
D. Yes I was very embarrassed by my gpa, but I sent it to employers when asked. Now I emphasize experience and the fact that I can potentially bring in business. This usually shuts them up about my grades.

Now I’m at a good firm making over 100k.... it can be done... just be persistent and don’t let anyone tell you that you aren’t good enough.

[Anonymous User]

Probably bottom 25% at a T50 but honestly stopped checking after a certain point. No OCI's.

a. How did you get your first job out of law school? - I was a paralegal at a firm (creditors' rights / "foreclosure mill") prior to law school and left on great terms and they welcomed me back.

b. How did you end up where you are today? - I somehow managed to turn my 2 years of experience at a creditors' rights firm/foreclosure mill into a non SDNY/DE Bankruptcy clerkship. I got the interview through good networking and got the offer from solid interviewing (so I've been told). After that, I landed a SDNY/DE Bankruptcy clerkship and now I am at an amlaw100 firm (not nyc) that pays near market. Was able to generate interest and several callbacks at a few v15 nyc restructuring groups but ultimately didn't want the nyc lifestyle and jumped on my firm's offer. Again, networking and nailing the interview.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews? - Wasn't an issue at the first firm because of the prior relationship. With my current firm and other various interviews, almost always. Didn't make excuses. I admitted to underachieving and focused on the challenging work, personal growth, and strong recommendations I've since acquired. I try to strike a balance of humility and confidence and avoid giving an answer that sounds canned. My theory, they brought me in, grades notwithstanding, so they're at least giving me the chance to wow them.

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers? - My GPA is not on my resume and I only provide transcripts if asked. I also have an MBA (not from an elite school) and usually send that transcript as well since those grades were much better.

[QContinuum]

I know it's held me back some, and was particularly stressful in law school/during the first couple of years after I graduated, but now I straight up tell people I did poorly in law school because I think it's annoying when people act like acing property 6 years ago makes you a good tax attorney or something.

Congrats on your professional success and thank you for sharing your experience with us here.

When exactly do you want/need to "straight up tell people you did poorly in law school"? Do people actually brag about their law school grades in social settings at your firm?

[Anonymous User]

I know it's held me back some, and was particularly stressful in law school/during the first couple of years after I graduated, but now I straight up tell people I did poorly in law school because I think it's annoying when people act like acing property 6 years ago makes you a good tax attorney or something.

Congrats on your professional success and thank you for sharing your experience with us here.

When exactly do you want/need to "straight up tell people you did poorly in law school"? Do people actually brag about their law school grades in social settings at your firm?

Really, I only talk about it to (1) comfort overwhelmed junior/summer associates who need someone to tell them that it's all going to be ok, particularly those who weren't top of their class and have all the impostor syndrome stuff going on (90% of the time it comes up) and (2) deal with junior associates who want to try and "measure up" to my HYS degree by talking about how great they did in law school (10% of the time it comes up). The measuring up issue usually only comes up because I've got the darn diploma on the wall - I would take it down to avoid having awkward conversations with junior associates who are like "oh, wow, you went to HYS, you must be so smart, let me tell you about my LLM/how I made moot court/law review/whatever" but I want partners to remember that at some point someone thought I was smart enough to go to HYS and they should give me a break. Literally no one else cares, because no one talks about their grades at a law firm! That would be such a weird thing to do. But if someone is already getting weird, I am more than willing to zag when they think I'm going to zig

[QContinuum]

Really, I only talk about it to (1) comfort overwhelmed junior/summer associates who need someone to tell them that it's all going to be ok, particularly those who weren't top of their class and have all the impostor syndrome stuff going on (90% of the time it comes up) and (2) deal with junior associates who want to try and "measure up" to my HYS degree by talking about how great they did in law school (10% of the time it comes up). The measuring up issue usually only comes up because I've got the darn diploma on the wall - I would take it down to avoid having awkward conversations with junior associates who are like "oh, wow, you went to HYS, you must be so smart, let me tell you about my LLM/how I made moot court/law review/whatever" but I want partners to remember that at some point someone thought I was smart enough to go to HYS and they should give me a break. Literally no one else cares, because no one talks about their grades at a law firm! That would be such a weird thing to do. But if someone is already getting weird, I am more than willing to zag when they think I'm going to zig

Thanks for following up - makes total sense!

[LBJ's Hair]

I know it's held me back some, and was particularly stressful in law school/during the first couple of years after I graduated, but now I straight up tell people I did poorly in law school because I think it's annoying when people act like acing property 6 years ago makes you a good tax attorney or something.

Congrats on your professional success and thank you for sharing your experience with us here.

When exactly do you want/need to "straight up tell people you did poorly in law school"? Do people actually brag about their law school grades in social settings at your firm?

Really, I only talk about it to (1) comfort overwhelmed junior/summer associates who need someone to tell them that it's all going to be ok, particularly those who weren't top of their class and have all the impostor syndrome stuff going on (90% of the time it comes up) and (2) deal with junior associates who want to try and "measure up" to my HYS degree by talking about how great they did in law school (10% of the time it comes up). The measuring up issue usually only comes up because I've got the darn diploma on the wall - I would take it down to avoid having awkward conversations with junior associates who are like "oh, wow, you went to HYS, you must be so smart, let me tell you about my LLM/how I made moot court/law review/whatever" but I want partners to remember that at some point someone thought I was smart enough to go to HYS and they should give me a break. Literally no one else cares, because no one talks about their grades at a law firm! That would be such a weird thing to do. But if someone is already getting weird, I am more than willing to zag when they think I'm going to zig

Just take the diploma down, guy/gal, if the grades chatter bothers you so much and you're pretty sure the diploma is causing it.

They're talking about the grades for the same reason you're hanging up a piece of paper that says HYS on it: To try to signal that they're smart.

[xjustyoursmile]

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?

Applied for a year long fellowship, interviewed well, got the job two months before graduation. This lead to getting a biglaw job after fellowship.

b. How did you end up where you are today?

Fellowship after law school had great connections and events. Had a great convo with a partner in biglaw at an event and got offered a job.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?

No

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

No. I've been scared of any backlash from it, but never ashamed. I interned every semester of law school including spring 1L and I was heavily involved with student orgs. I know I'm not great at academia, but I'm a great worker hence why I put more effort into my internships rather than my grades

[2013]

Random question to the people in this thread who’ve mentioned firms with grade cut-offs:

Is it a moving scale depending on tier of school or is it a strict numbers cutoff?

When I see postings for jobs by recruiters, it seems to say minimum 3.4 from top-30 school, or, if more junior, minimum 3.5 from top-20 school.

These seem like arbitrary cutoffs, so I was just wondering.

[Anonymous User]

Not my story, but a good friend of mine pulled off some pretty impressive stuff despite being bottom 20% of the class. She wasn’t URM, and she didn’t have work experience, but she got five offers at OCI in three cities by having top grades in certain classes, and being a savant at finance + knowledgeable about certain clients. Our understanding is that she didn’t target firms that cared about GPA, so it wasn’t an issue. To the extent you have any top grades leverage them.

[Anonymous User]

UVA grad, bottom 10-20% after 1L, 3.10 or something like that, ended slightly higher, maybe 25%? No callbacks at OCI, no competitive interviews for much of anything really. Did two summers of public interest work. Got a fellowship, spun that into a non-A-3 federal clerkship, spun that into a permanent job fed job, now work 40 hours a week for $100k with no stress doing work that I like with people I like. Great outcome for me, but I also realize now that a lot depended on lucky breaks, could have ended up in much worse position.

[Anonymous User]

Lower tier T14, mix of B-/B/B+ grades close to 3.0, went into OCI thinking I was going to fail but practiced interviewing and networked like crazy and came out with a 50% screener>>>>cb ratio (due to shit grades) but nearly 100% cb>>>>offer ratio in NYC corporate. Mix of V100-V10 firms for offers. I think it really came down to talking to associates during coffee chats and figuring out what the firm really was about/what the higher ups wanted out of juniors and repeating it back during OCI.

[Anonymous User]

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?
b. How did you end up where you are today?
c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?
d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

Thanks!

I had a public interest job lined up right after graduation. I lost my job since I couldn't pass the bar on my first try. That sent me into a tailspin where it took me over 18 months to pass the bar. Once I passed the bar, I applied to over 250-300 public interest positions (mainly major market / state government positions). GPA never came up, but the gap on my resume did. I just addressed it straight on, shared what was enough, and put a positive spin on things. Out of the 300+ applications, I got 15 interviews. Out of those interviews, I got one offer which I accepted. I couldn't be happier with my job and the rest is history as they say. Times were tough, but I'm grateful everyday for where I am.

[sparty99]

I'm also bottom25% from T-13, so I get this OP: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... #p10379462. That said, I never regret attending my current school or choosing the law school path.

GPA is a heavy blow to my self-esteem. You might be assuming that I haven't worked hard at law school. But I have. Everyone works hard at law school, but there are simply too many brilliant people.

For those who used to be bottom at your law schools, please share your story and offer some hopes to folks who are still looking for postgraduate employment. All kinds of stories welcome, especially stories regarding the following questions:

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?
b. How did you end up where you are today?
c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?
d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?

Thanks!

a. OCI, third year.
b. Trading up from staff attorney to insurance defense to insurance defense to big law.
c. Yes, but mostly in law school 2L applications. Only with executive recruiters mostly now, but they are overrated. Got many big law job interviews without them and when they said I was not qualified due to my grades.
d. Not ashmaed, but always nervous because I knew my grades were not stellar. Generally, don't send my transcript unless asked and I send an unofficial where the grades are listed from highest to lowest.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure if I was bottom quarter of my class, but I was below median (graduated with a 3.3 or slightly lower or something) from a T25 school.

a. How did you get your first job out of law school?
My law school career services recommended me to a firm when the firm let them know they had slots open, and the firm's recruiting contact reached out to me personally after I happened to meet them a couple times and, I guess, made a good impression to them and a recruiting partner.

b. How did you end up where you are today?
Along with the above response, it was definitely my hustling my 2L year (and into my 3L year) to not only do well grade-wise, but also take all possible leadership positions and be really active in my community, which is how the recruiting partner happened to get to know about me and thus (I suspect) get me an interview and an offer with the firm.

c. Did GPA ever come up during interviews?
It didn't come up with my post-OCI recruiting efforts (in other words, after I found out I struck out at OCI, I applied to a bunch of other stuff and when I did get an interview, the GPA did not come up) nor did it really come up for 3L recruiting, though it was kind of the unmentioned elephant in the room where I knew they saw it, they knew I knew it wasn't good, and I worked hard to focus interviews on all the other good things on my resume other than the GPA. I am hoping to lateral soon, and I suspect my GPA will still pose a slight barrier as a 3/4th year associate from certain firms in the market I want.

d. Have you ever been ashamed of your GPA and unwilling to send your transcript to employers?
I mean, yes, I was and still am kind of embarrassed about my GPA. I think especially if people find out that my GPA is what it is vs. my pretty strong reputation as a solid worker at my current firm, I can kind of see people's wheels clicking in their heads--not in a malicious way, but in that general "oh I didn't realize this person did not have immaculate grades and likely had to work 2x harder to get here...hm." It was especially embarrassing when people asked me where I was going to summer, and I had to say that I didn't have a job, and when they asked why, I'd say that my GPA wasn't up to snuff, and the conversation would peter out due to embarrassment on both sides.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if I was bottom 25%, but I had low grades at OCI. I go to a T13 currently. I got one offer because I inadvertently specialized in a certain practice area (undergraduate degree, work experience, 1L internship (non-technical FYI)). I got an offer from a boutique biglaw firm doing that practice area.