The reality of the kids at the bottom of the class at a T14 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have a 3.0 which is probably bottom 25% at my school. Of course, I failed OCI and mass mailing. Applied for a public interest, in house, government, etc and got nothing. I recently went on an interview for a part-time shit law job and didn't get that either.

The prestige of the T14 is a myth if you're under median especially for URM's. I should have accepted the full scholarship at the lower ranked school because my job prospects couldn't be worse than they are now. I was sold on the school by the admissions team who told me how great the school was and how career services would ensure I had a good career. Now I have a debt albatross around my neck and will be forced to hang a shingle after law school.

These type of stories should be told to prospective students. There is no guarantee they will be at or above the median and things could go very bad.

[Lacepiece23]

I have a 3.0 which is probably bottom 25% at my school. Of course, I failed OCI and mass mailing. Applied for a public interest, in house, government, etc and got nothing. I recently went on an interview for a part-time shit law job and didn't get that either.

The prestige of the T14 is a myth if you're under median especially for URM's. I should have accepted the full scholarship at the lower ranked school because my job prospects couldn't be worse than they are now. I was sold on the school by the admissions team who told me how great the school was and how career services would ensure I had a good career. Now I have a debt albatross around my neck and will be forced to hang a shingle after law school.

These type of stories should be told to prospective students. There is no guarantee they will be at or above the median and things could go very bad.

Hang in there. This happened to a bunch of my friends. At the time, they were understandably devastated. I certainly emphasize with the fear you must be feeling. But law school is only part of the journey, your first job is even a smaller part. I know a lot of people who went something like gov. agency-->mid sized firm--> biglaw--> in-house. There's tons of variations on that path. Some of the happiest lawyers I know just did not do biglaw at all. It takes some hustle, probably more for a URM. You can do it, however. And your degree will help you out when you're trying to break into different types of jobs later. Trust me.

[Anonymous User]

I assume you are talking about GULC. If so, I regret coming to this school for the same reasons as you

[Anonymous User]

I assume you are talking about GULC. If so, I regret coming to this school for the same reasons as you

not GULC

[Aptitude]

The stats are already available on LST.

[BansheeScream]

I don't mean to provide unwanted advice if that's not what you're looking for but have you tried networking and targeting smaller markets that you have any ties to? I have close friends at my t14 who are definitely in the bottom 25% and have landed jobs at firms in smaller Midwestern and east coast cities. These firms don't get a lot of applications from t14s and are likely to be less grade conscious. While I also think mass mailing is great, there's no real substitute for sitting down and grabbing coffee with an alum of your school. 90% of people will do it if you reach out to them.

Finally, I would consider reaching out to professors who either have practiced or are well connected or a more competent career counselor. My CSO in general was very good but there were definitely counselors who knew what they were talking about and went above and beyond for students, and counselors who just didn't. One of the most valuable parts of attending a t14 is the network. Reach out to as many people as possible and leverage the degree you've paid for.

Once again, I apologize if you've done all this and wish you the best of luck in finding something.

[albanach]

Does your school offer school-funded PI fellowships? If so, utilize that strategically.

[Anonymous User]

I went to GULC for JD.

All I can say is you need to hang in there. I knew a lot of kids in your position, some with even worse grades (in other words, sub 3.0), and they all ended up fine. (as in decent law jobs)

To be entirely frank, most firms want URMs to pad numbers if anything. If you got no bites at OCI at all, then you probably bid badly (every year at GULC, there are firms whose median GPA for offers is in the 3.2x/3.1x/(sometimes)3.0x range) or interviewed badly, and probably both. Since you're at a higher ranked school, I assume there is even more leeway.

You're in a tough spot but as long as you have something 2L summer (make it LEGAL, unless it's a big name corp, even a research assistant job is valuable), you will probably land on your feet at graduation.

[QContinuum]

The game is far from over. OCI isn't the be-all end-all of hiring. Bottom 25% at a T13 is still a very good position to be in - if I had to choose, I'd readily take bottom 25% at T13 over top 25% at any non-Fordham law school in the 30-50 range. 2L OCI is certainly the easiest path when it works, but when it doesn't, you're in no different of a situation than the public-interest folks who never even did 2L OCI to begin with. The job search is hard - I've been there - but keep pounding the pavement. Reach out to alumni. Leverage every remote connection you can leverage. Force Career Services to do more for you. Get your professors to help. Are you still in school? If so, start doing local PI internships, even if unpaid.

Hang in there. We're all rooting for you!

[JHP]

Definitely seconding what everyone above has said--don't give up. I know people who were in a similar position, and while it takes hustle, you can make it work out. You have to continue to put your nose to the grindstone, keep networking, keep staying positive (at least looking positive while networking), make it a weekly thing to apply to jobs, and do what you can to boost your resume (leadership positions, staying involved, of course trying to raise your GPA). The difference between you and all those other folks in the same position as you will be your positive attitude which will pay off not only in interviews but also in how it affects your willingness/dedication to job applications. Some folks will phone it in, half a$$ applications, be bitter, and it will 100% impact their job-search hustle.

[Anonymous User]

I was also below median (3.2ish) at T14 AND don’t have a citizenship nor green card, which made me much much less favorable to firms than your URM status due to visa support, struck out at OCI, but still landed a biglaw by post-OCI massmailing. I admit that some of luck was involved here, but what I felt during job search was that gpa was actually less important than I had expected. Your past work experience and interviewing skills matter A LOT. Try to find a niche area you are interested in and tailor your experience to it.

[Anonymous User]

I have a 3.0 which is probably bottom 25% at my school. Of course, I failed OCI and mass mailing. Applied for a public interest, in house, government, etc and got nothing. I recently went on an interview for a part-time shit law job and didn't get that either.

The prestige of the T14 is a myth if you're under median especially for URM's. I should have accepted the full scholarship at the lower ranked school because my job prospects couldn't be worse than they are now. I was sold on the school by the admissions team who told me how great the school was and how career services would ensure I had a good career. Now I have a debt albatross around my neck and will be forced to hang a shingle after law school.

These type of stories should be told to prospective students. There is no guarantee they will be at or above the median and things could go very bad.

Please don't give up. I was in a similar position--I felt like I had tried everything. Don't feel bad about not getting the shit law job--weirdly, I found the hiring at smaller firms to be harder than at the big firms. They might see your T14 as a negative b/c you are more of a flight risk.

If your school has a PI fellowship, use it strategically. It may be an uphill battle with your grades, but you could also try to clerk for a state court or non art III judge. You could leverage that experience into an art III clerkship. The is far from over and you will absolutely find something great, you just need to hustle.

[QContinuum]

Don't feel bad about not getting the shit law job--weirdly, I found the hiring at smaller firms to be harder than at the big firms. They might see your T14 as a negative b/c you are more of a flight risk.

The above is 100% true. Depending on the T14 in question and depending on the region, the SmallLaw firm may not even recognize the T14's prestige - e.g., not to pick on Kentucky in particular, but I'm sure there are rural SmallLawyers in Kentucky who have no clue how great of a law school NYU is.

And in any case, bottom 25% at a T14 shouldn't be forced into going into SmallLaw. Keep hustling (I know much easier said than done, but still) and better things will come your way!

[GoldenPuppy]

Don’t give up. It’s not over.

I’d recommend people Google mismatch theory affirmative action Scalia.

[PrayFor170]

Unless you have solid ties with a specific market, bottom at T-13 almost always get better options than top at TTTT.

[Anonymous User]

I was in the bottom 30-40% of my class (T14). My story's a bit different since I've been on the public interest track since day 1. I've been working for the state government (major market) since graduation, and I couldn't be happier with the work that I do, etc.

[Arad]

Sorry to hear about your OCI experience; I hope you manage to line something good up. I don’t have much to add from a career perspective other than to keep a positive attitude and keep networking. I know plenty of people who have struck out with similar grades and subsequently ended up in BigLaw, MidLaw, BigFed or good in-house positions.

While I agree with your point that prospective students should be cognizant of less-than-ideal outcomes and incorporate such outcomes in their risk analysis when deciding between scholarships and school rankings, I want to emphasize that the trade offs cut both ways. I know multiple people who turned down HCC for $$$$ and subsequently ended up bottom third/unable to land BigLaw, which likely wouldn’t have been the case at HCC. I don’t think there’s a blanket right answer; prospective students need to decide how much risk (upside and downside) they are comfortable with (i.e., do they want to maximize their upside opportunities at the cost of having worst downside scenarios, such as no job with max debt, or do they want to trade off their upside but cushion their downside by accepting scholarship money at schools with worst BigLaw, BigFed or clerking placement).

[Anonymous User]

2L with a 3.1 from a T6 here. Struck out at OCI with 4 callbacks. Much like you I have been applying to all sorts of summer gigs but I can't get an interview anywhere to save my life.

As of now, I completely regret attending the school I went to - like you, I could have saved money attending a lower ranked school. However, I am also clearly within the minority of students. Almost everyone I know has a SA lined up including people with worse grades than me. I really am an exception to the rule. I know someone who had multiple B-s as a 1L who is going to work at a V10 this summer (you think someone not at a T14 could do that?). The opportunities were there, I just sorta slipped through the cracks. I am not angry at the school and I don't think T14 prestige is a "myth". I am angry at myself for having let such a good opportunity in life go to waste.

Re: being sold a lie. You knew that not everyone gets an SA (To be fair, I didn't realize how bad things would go if you didn't). I just assumed it was the socially-awkward kids who couldn't hold a conversation were the ones that struck-out. Despite my own failure, this is pretty much how it is for most strike-outers. I also could have gotten better grades and I would not be in this situation - once again, I can only blame myself.

Unfortunately, the situation for us seems pretty dim and OCS has no answers. Hopefully, we can get a respectable gig during 3L, who knows. It's not fun to think that our legal careers may have crashed and burned before they even began.

[Anonymous User]

2L with a 3.1 from a T6 here. Struck out at OCI with 4 callbacks. Much like you I have been applying to all sorts of summer gigs but I can't get an interview anywhere to save my life.

As of now, I completely regret attending the school I went to - like you, I could have saved money attending a lower ranked school. However, I am also clearly within the minority of students. Almost everyone I know has a SA lined up including people with worse grades than me. I really am an exception to the rule. I know someone who had multiple B-s as a 1L who is going to work at a V10 this summer (you think someone not at a T14 could do that?). The opportunities were there, I just sorta slipped through the cracks. I am not angry at the school and I don't think T14 prestige is a "myth". I am angry at myself for having let such a good opportunity in life go to waste.

Re: being sold a lie. You knew that not everyone gets an SA (To be fair, I didn't realize how bad things would go if you didn't). I just assumed it was the socially-awkward kids who couldn't hold a conversation were the ones that struck-out. Despite my own failure, this is pretty much how it is for most strike-outers. I also could have gotten better grades and I would not be in this situation - once again, I can only blame myself.

Unfortunately, the situation for us seems pretty dim and OCS has no answers. Hopefully, we can get a respectable gig during 3L, who knows. It's not fun to think that our legal careers may have crashed and burned before they even began.

I truly think you're digging yourself into a Hole of Bad Thoughts. You're right, there will be some people with similar stats as you who may not graduate with a job, and that is scary. But there are also people who have the stats you do or even worse and somehow land on their feet, if not with a great job, at least with a job that starts them off towards a good path. You're not going to get anywhere by letting this way of thinking get to you, because as another poster said, it will affect your job search and people will *definitely* sense your bitterness/sadness/desperation if you let it get the better of you.

I was at a school ranked in the 20's and had probably about a 3.2 or slightly lower at OCI. I did strike out at OCI after 3 callbacks and was DEVASTATED. I also though that law school was a mistake, that I was in the minority, I was in debt, I blamed myself for not being better, and generally being bitter about my situation and having a huge hit to my pride. I also broke into a cold sweat every time I thought about jobs because I just KNEW I wasn't going to get anything good. But I knew that was a toxic way to think. So I hustled, networked like crazy, took leadership positions and really worked hard at being a great interviewer. Graduated with a job in big law despite graduating with something like a 3.3.

[Anonymous User]

I am in a similar position to you, so I can't say anything with the support of having reached a successful result yet. However, I have had conversations with more senior people to try to collect information about what to do here. What I have heard is that the way to get back on track is to get a clerkship, which is 90% connections. You can reach out to anyone who might be able to help you with this and offer to do work for them to show what you can do. The 3 traditional entry paths to a big firm are: law school hiring, clerkship, and lateraling from another firm. District court anywhere will put you back on this path, also look at state supreme courts as well as other courts in DE, Maryland, NY, CA. Keep believing in yourself and don't make more of your failures than they are - shit happens yo.

[Anonymous User]

I am in a similar position to you, so I can't say anything with the support of having reached a successful result yet. However, I have had conversations with more senior people to try to collect information about what to do here. What I have heard is that the way to get back on track is to get a clerkship, which is 90% connections. You can reach out to anyone who might be able to help you with this and offer to do work for them to show what you can do. The 3 traditional entry paths to a big firm are: law school hiring, clerkship, and lateraling from another firm. District court anywhere will put you back on this path, also look at state supreme courts as well as other courts in DE, Maryland, NY, CA. Keep believing in yourself and don't make more of your failures than they are - shit happens yo.

The bolded above is absolutely true. If you are a 2L, you definitely have time to search and apply for clerkships. For some judges, your grades will be an issue. But networking would help (edit to add: by networking, I mean asking your OCS. I would not advise doing the traditional "let's go to coffee" think with a judge.). Also, if you can intern for a judge during the school year, you will become far more attractive as a candidate for a clerkship--especially if you are interested in a niche area (like bankruptcy or tax).

FWIW, I was well below median at a T6. I struck out at OCI, summered at a tiny tiny firm, and had nothing lined up throughout 3L. I applied for a ton of clerkships (and just about everywhere else too). I eventually accepted a non art III clerkship in a flyover district. I then leveraged that into a more prestigious clerkship. From there, I got an offer at a V10 in my desired market. I think you should absolutely apply for firm jobs (or any entry-level law job). But doing a clerkship or two would make you MUCH more marketable.

[jsnow212]

The prestige of the T14 is a myth if you're under median especially for URM's. I should have accepted the full scholarship at the lower ranked school because my job prospects couldn't be worse than they are now. I was sold on the school by the admissions team who told me how great the school was and how career services would ensure I had a good career. Now I have a debt albatross around my neck and will be forced to hang a shingle after law school.

These type of stories should be told to prospective students. There is no guarantee they will be at or above the median and things could go very bad.

There just seems to be a lot of "woe is me" and lack of accountability here that is leading to a downward cycle. You are in the bottom 25% of this school but you are blaming career services when the LST/ABA numbers are clearly there showing that nearly everyone gets employment at T13 schools. And then you conclude with a mathematical truism as if it were a some profound discovery. Obviously 50% of people are below the median GPA, but the supermajority of those people still do fine in OCI. Your description of this situation makes it seems like there were several destructive steps you probably took during OCI, like having Cravath or S&C [insert firm you clearly shouldn't be bidding here] on your bidlist out of unjustified self-confidence or, dare I say, entitlement.

You need to mass-mail, take every interview seriously (even the shitlaw one you probably went into less than 100% enthusiastic for), and reach out to alums. People with median or above grades don't have to have face-time or "hustle" for their job, you need to. Swallow your pride and walk into the career office and tell them you need help...it is in their absolute best interest to ensure you get a job for the summer.

This shit happens to a small subset of the T13 each year, you just so happen to be in it this time. Don't give up, accept your current position, and understand that you have the choice now to continue downward or salvage the situation.

[KijiStewart]

Also, consider mass mailing plaintiffs firms. Most BigLaw firms have very structured hiring programs (i.e. if if they fill their desired amount of spots they won't consider your application) but plaintiffs firms (not that they should be classified in the same category as BigLaw for prestige/entrance salary etc) are likely to be more flexible and may consider your candidacy. Check out topclassactions.com to try and decipher the ones worth your time to apply to.

[FLThrowaway]

My school, one of the lower T-14, doesn't rank students, but I never once encountered someone that admitted to a lower GPA than me. If I had to guess I was definitely in the bottom 25% if not lower. I took a job deep in flyover country at a regionally respected midlaw firm. After working there for two years I recently lateraled to my home market at a firm near the bottom of the amlaw 100. Having my law school's name on my resume definitely helped with that transition. My job isn't the most prestigious, but it's in my preferred practice area and in my home market.

[Anonymous User]

networking would help (edit to add: by networking, I mean asking your OCS. I would not advise doing the traditional "let's go to coffee" think with a judge.). Also, if you can intern for a judge during the school year, you will become far more attractive as a candidate for a clerkship--especially if you are interested in a niche area (like bankruptcy or tax).

Quoted anon. I was told that networking with your professors may also help, if there are people that judges would trust who can vouch for you. I personally needed more external support that my understanding of my own situation (that a difficult period was not representative) was accurate, and references who were willing to make that argument for me. I know not everyone's in that situation, but if you are, that is the advice I received from a number of sources.