Biglaw Dallas - Non-Equity Partner - Exec Comp - AMA! Forum

[Anonymous User]

I originally joined this forum way back in 2007 when I was applying for law school. I came back for old time's sake and noticed the site has grown so much. I wanted to pay back the advice I received way back when by answering any questions that anyone may have on biglaw, working in Dallas or in executive compensation, making non-equity partner, etc. I think that's a solid combination of niches for which there isn't a ton of information on here.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for doing this. I am currently in transactional tax, but I am thinking of moving into exec comp. How are the exit opportunities compared to transactional tax?

My goal is to move in house ASAP. I have fairly substantive pre-law experience in federal income tax, which should be valuable to in house tax roles, but because of a variety of issues, I am having doubts as to whether I can stick it out for 2-3 years in tax before I can move in house in tax.

[HenryHankPalmer]

I originally joined this forum way back in 2007 when I was applying for law school. I came back for old time's sake and noticed the site has grown so much. I wanted to pay back the advice I received way back when by answering any questions that anyone may have on biglaw, working in Dallas or in executive compensation, making non-equity partner, etc. I think that's a solid combination of niches for which there isn't a ton of information on here.

1. Obviously, you can only speak for your own experience with any authority, but what Dallas firms offer the best partnership prospects in your opinion? I would assume it would go Dallas firms>Satellites of Houston firms>National firms.

2. Are you from Dallas? If not, have you ever felt at a disadvantaged because of the "Dallas culture" that people so often complain about? I'm not a Dallas native, but I lived there for awhile before law school and love the city, just curious to see if there is any disadvantage to not being part of the HP/St. Marks/Hockaday/Jesuit-pipeline.

3. Favorite lunch spots in Downtown/Uptown?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks a lot for doing this.

1. What's your impression of which firms are rising or falling in Dallas and the future of Dallas as a legal market?

2. What was your experience like while under partnership consideration as a member what is often a transactional support group? Would you have been fine with a counsel-type position or preferred to go in-house instead?

[hookem2020]

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer folks' questions. I will be summering in Dallas starting next month, so I find this immensely helpful.

1. When recruiting with firms in Dallas this summer, I got the sense that their is a greater emphasis than in other markets on ensuring some semblance of balance for attorneys. Obviously, the hour requirements are the same as other markets, but it seemed like attorneys were able to make it home for dinner with their families and able to maintain a life outside of work. Has this been your experience? What kind of realistic expectations should I have for the life I am able to maintain outside of work?

2. Do you have any advice on how I can set myself apart during the summer and as a junior associate? I have no idea if I would like to pursue the partnership path, but at the very least I would like to establish a strong reputation and keep the partnership door open until I get a better idea of what it entails.

3. From an outsiders perspective it seems like the Dallas market is very hot. Is this impression correct? Are you happy that you decided to make Dallas home?

Any other general advice is extremely appreciated!

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for doing this. I am currently in transactional tax, but I am thinking of moving into exec comp. How are the exit opportunities compared to transactional tax?

My goal is to move in house ASAP. I have fairly substantive pre-law experience in federal income tax, which should be valuable to in house tax roles, but because of a variety of issues, I am having doubts as to whether I can stick it out for 2-3 years in tax before I can move in house in tax.

The exit opportunities for exec comp (ECB) are much better compared to tax, but obviously not as great as something like corporate/M&A (aka MACM). I think one of the primary reasons for this, is after the MACM folks, ECB attorneys get the most face-time with clients. I am on the phone with the CEO, CFO, GC, HR director, etc. at clients every single day. We work with them year-round on securities filings (e.g., proxy, 10-K, 10-Qs, 8-Ks, Form 4s, etc.) and day-to-day comp and benefits work (e.g., employment agreements, equity awards, bonuses, severance, 401(k), etc.). And, for the most part, interactions are very pleasant as we're mostly helping people get paid. You'll also get significant exposure to the client on transactions and IPOs, which are the primary focus of my practice. Hence, I think it is very easy for an ECB attorney to sell their skillset to an in-house company. We are a niche, but our experience is a lot more relevant to an in-house role than that of a tax attorney (unless, of course, the company is looking for a tax specialist).

Hopefully that helps but let me know if you have any follow up questions.

[Anonymous User]

1. Obviously, you can only speak for your own experience with any authority, but what Dallas firms offer the best partnership prospects in your opinion? I would assume it would go Dallas firms>Satellites of Houston firms>National firms.

Your order is probably correct. If we're talking biglaw, I think of the firms in a few buckets. (1) BigTex firms like BB and V&E, (2) national firms like K&E, Weil and Sidley and (3) everyone else (like TK, AK (now Hunton, I guess), Winstead, etc.). I think partnership prospects are good for a firm in category (3). I have a few friends who made it at firms like that. I think partnership prospects at (2) are a long-shot while partnership prospects at (1) are perhaps more attainable than (2), it's quickly becoming a long-shot as well. BigTex firms are becoming as selective as the national firms at this point.

2. Are you from Dallas? If not, have you ever felt at a disadvantaged because of the "Dallas culture" that people so often complain about? I'm not a Dallas native, but I lived there for awhile before law school and love the city, just curious to see if there is any disadvantage to not being part of the HP/St. Marks/Hockaday/Jesuit-pipeline.

I'm from the area. Not Dallas specifically, but DFW in general. Hence, I've never felt too disadvantaged but I can't really relate when others talk about those schools you mention. I still don't live in Dallas. I prefer the suburbs, which is atypical here.

3. Favorite lunch spots in Downtown/Uptown?
This is a good question! I love to go to crushcraft for Thai food, Yutaka for sushi, Off-Site Kitchen for a burger, Poke Bop for poke, or Mia's for the best brisket tacos in town. Those are my regular spots. If we're talking dinner, I'm a huge Nick Badovinus fanboy, so I love Neighborhood Services and Town Hearth.

My answers in green above.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks a lot for doing this.

1. What's your impression of which firms are rising or falling in Dallas and the future of Dallas as a legal market?
It's tough for me to say which firms are falling as I honestly live in somewhat of a bubble at my firm. I think that BigTex firms like BB and Fulbright (Norton Rose) are falling somewhat now that the K&Es and Sidleys of the world are moving in. As for firms rising, it's definitely K&E. They moved in last summer and took a pretty promising MACM partner candidate from V&E. They're making a concerted effort to make that office a full-scale operation but I know they've had some difficulty hiring an ECB attorney.

2. What was your experience like while under partnership consideration as a member what is often a transactional support group? Would you have been fine with a counsel-type position or preferred to go in-house instead?
As part of a service group like ECB, the main key to partnership consideration is making sure you're visible and known to the MACM attorneys. It's really about selling yourself and your skills - your knowledge base, your efficiency and your value to the team. I was eligible for equity partner, but it's difficult to make equity partner in my group. That's somewhat due to the current dynamics of the group, so there was little I could do about that. I was somewhat happy to make non-equity partner, but equity partner is, and has always been, my goal. If I am being honest with myself, I think that is still 2 to 5 years away due to aforementioned group dynamics. I don't think I would have gone in-house. The paycut is way too drastic. Nowadays, if you don't go in-house after one or two years, I don't know how you could do it. If I were to go in-house now, I would leave $400k+ on the table.

Answers in green above.

[Anonymous User]

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer folks' questions. I will be summering in Dallas starting next month, so I find this immensely helpful.

1. When recruiting with firms in Dallas this summer, I got the sense that their is a greater emphasis than in other markets on ensuring some semblance of balance for attorneys. Obviously, the hour requirements are the same as other markets, but it seemed like attorneys were able to make it home for dinner with their families and able to maintain a life outside of work. Has this been your experience? What kind of realistic expectations should I have for the life I am able to maintain outside of work?

I think that is an astute observation. That is one of the best things about being in Dallas - you get market comp with a little bit better work/life balance. Now, I won't lie to you, we still work a lot. And being in one of the busiest groups at the firm, we (along with tax) are the highest billers in the firm. The last few years, I have averaged around 2300 hours a year. Part of that was necessity while part of it was trying to make partner. Now, I am on target for around 2150-2200 and that's where I want it to be so I can maximize my compensation while also trying to make equity partner. With all of that said, I have a wife and kids and I am generally able to see them for dinner every night. A few nights a week, I might have to hop on the computer to finish something or send some emails out. Same with the weekend, but I rarely have situations where I work all night or all weekend. Part of that comes with the seniority - there are others who can do that for me now, but a lot of it is simply due to the fact that this practice isn't exposed to the same sort of time pressure that groups like MACM are. Of course, we still get it sometimes on certain transactions, but it's never as bad as MACM has it.

2. Do you have any advice on how I can set myself apart during the summer and as a junior associate? I have no idea if I would like to pursue the partnership path, but at the very least I would like to establish a strong reputation and keep the partnership door open until I get a better idea of what it entails.
As a summer, I would focus on making others know that you're a hardworker and want to work on substantive projects. You might not get to meet everyone on your floor in the natural course through lunch or firm functions, so if there's someone you have seen or heard about, stop by their office and let them know that you'd love to work on a project with them. Or ask them if they need help with anything. I would try to meet everyone that you can. Don't leave at 5 pm every day. Stick around until 630/7 pm (unless you have an event scheduled), or whenever attorneys on your floor generally leave. A lot of people don't treat the summer associate program with the respect that they should. It's still a job interview and you have to be focused on that. You'll distinguish yourself if you show that you're not just there to have fun and meet people. A lot of that advice holds true as a junior associate.

3. From an outsiders perspective it seems like the Dallas market is very hot. Is this impression correct? Are you happy that you decided to make Dallas home?
Yep, Dallas market is very hot right now. Firms like Sidley and K&E are moving in to get a piece of the pie. I'm from the area, so Dallas was pretty much my only choice but I am very glad to be here and feel fortunate. As I noted above, I think Dallas provides the best experience for a biglaw gig. You get market comp, low cost of living and better work/life balance.

Any other general advice is extremely appreciated!

Answers in green above.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks a lot for doing this.

1. What's your impression of which firms are rising or falling in Dallas and the future of Dallas as a legal market?
It's tough for me to say which firms are falling as I honestly live in somewhat of a bubble at my firm. I think that BigTex firms like BB and Fulbright (Norton Rose) are falling somewhat now that the K&Es and Sidleys of the world are moving in. As for firms rising, it's definitely K&E. They moved in last summer and took a pretty promising MACM partner candidate from V&E. They're making a concerted effort to make that office a full-scale operation but I know they've had some difficulty hiring an ECB attorney.

2. What was your experience like while under partnership consideration as a member what is often a transactional support group? Would you have been fine with a counsel-type position or preferred to go in-house instead?
As part of a service group like ECB, the main key to partnership consideration is making sure you're visible and known to the MACM attorneys. It's really about selling yourself and your skills - your knowledge base, your efficiency and your value to the team. I was eligible for equity partner, but it's difficult to make equity partner in my group. That's somewhat due to the current dynamics of the group, so there was little I could do about that. I was somewhat happy to make non-equity partner, but equity partner is, and has always been, my goal. If I am being honest with myself, I think that is still 2 to 5 years away due to aforementioned group dynamics. I don't think I would have gone in-house. The paycut is way too drastic. Nowadays, if you don't go in-house after one or two years, I don't know how you could do it. If I were to go in-house now, I would leave $400k+ on the table.

Answers in green above.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

One follow-up question: Related to question #2 above, it seems like for some of the service groups there's less of an up or out mentality, but at the same time, you'll see senior associates asked to leave. Did the firm or partners in your group convey to you that you wouldn't be pushed out if you stuck around and, if so, how?

[Anonymous User]

2. Are you from Dallas? If not, have you ever felt at a disadvantaged because of the "Dallas culture" that people so often complain about? I'm not a Dallas native, but I lived there for awhile before law school and love the city, just curious to see if there is any disadvantage to not being part of the HP/St. Marks/Hockaday/Jesuit-pipeline.

I’m not OP, but I feel like I can chime in on this. I’m an incoming SA in Dallas. Out of about a dozen SAs at my firm, only one or two are from that sort of stereotypical Dallas pipeline. I think it’s a non-issue.

Even at winter recruiting events, most of the law students I met were either from outside of the Dallas area completely or they went to suburban public schools. The recruiters are different story - it seems like almost all of them went HP/Ursuline/ESD -> SMU/UT/TCU.

[Anonymous User]

One follow-up question: Related to question #2 above, it seems like for some of the service groups there's less of an up or out mentality, but at the same time, you'll see senior associates asked to leave. Did the firm or partners in your group convey to you that you wouldn't be pushed out if you stuck around and, if so, how?

You're welcome. My group may be a little unique in that, in my nearly 10 years here, I've only ever seen one person get asked to leave and they were really asking for it. Hence, I never really worried about job security. We're a niche practice with a fairly technical knowledge base. We find more attorneys through lateral recruitment than summer associate recruitment, so one of the best parts of the practice group is that they don't really fire people unless it's for a very good reason. Of course, this will vary from firm to firm and practice area to practice area. If you are asked to leave, my understanding is that they basically give you three months (paid) to find another job. You would wrap up whatever work you were currently handling but you wouldn't be expected to take on new projects during that time period.

To address a somewhat related topic - I was very clear from probably my third or fourth year on that I wanted to make partner at the firm. So I asked my mentors, practice group leaders, and others, what I needed to do to put myself in a position for consideration. Then I worked towards those objectives. I was always told that I was on the right track, etc. Even now, when I was promoted to non-equity partner, I have been told that I will (eventually) make equity partner. It's just not the right time right now.

[Anonymous User]

2. Are you from Dallas? If not, have you ever felt at a disadvantaged because of the "Dallas culture" that people so often complain about? I'm not a Dallas native, but I lived there for awhile before law school and love the city, just curious to see if there is any disadvantage to not being part of the HP/St. Marks/Hockaday/Jesuit-pipeline.

I’m not OP, but I feel like I can chime in on this. I’m an incoming SA in Dallas. Out of about a dozen SAs at my firm, only one or two are from that sort of stereotypical Dallas pipeline. I think it’s a non-issue.

Even at winter recruiting events, most of the law students I met were either from outside of the Dallas area completely or they went to suburban public schools. The recruiters are different story - it seems like almost all of them went HP/Ursuline/ESD -> SMU/UT/TCU.

OP here. I'm glad you weighed in because I probably didn't give a proper response to the original question since I'm from DFW. You're exactly right. It doesn't matter at all whether someone here is from Dallas, DFW or Texas. You'll find that A LOT of biglaw attorneys are transplants to Dallas. Virtually everyone in my practice area is a transplant, most from outside of Texas. It's a great legal market that many people willingly seek out due to comp, low cost of living, robust biglaw practices, etc. Being from Dallas or not is really a non-issue.

[HenryHankPalmer]

2. Are you from Dallas? If not, have you ever felt at a disadvantaged because of the "Dallas culture" that people so often complain about? I'm not a Dallas native, but I lived there for awhile before law school and love the city, just curious to see if there is any disadvantage to not being part of the HP/St. Marks/Hockaday/Jesuit-pipeline.

I’m not OP, but I feel like I can chime in on this. I’m an incoming SA in Dallas. Out of about a dozen SAs at my firm, only one or two are from that sort of stereotypical Dallas pipeline. I think it’s a non-issue.

Even at winter recruiting events, most of the law students I met were either from outside of the Dallas area completely or they went to suburban public schools. The recruiters are different story - it seems like almost all of them went HP/Ursuline/ESD -> SMU/UT/TCU.

That’s been my experience as well, I was just curious. I have heard it’s more pervasive at some firms than others (although I’m heading to a firm that is supposedly very stuffy/old-Dallas and I haven’t encountered that at all). I think a lot of that might be overblown.

[Anonymous User]

I originally joined this forum way back in 2007 when I was applying for law school. I came back for old time's sake and noticed the site has grown so much. I wanted to pay back the advice I received way back when by answering any questions that anyone may have on biglaw, working in Dallas or in executive compensation, making non-equity partner, etc. I think that's a solid combination of niches for which there isn't a ton of information on here.

At the risk of sounding crass, would you mind discussing non-equity/equity partner comp in Dallas?

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for taking questions.

Is your practice mostly transactional or do you have institutional clients? I’m currently looking to lateral into a more deal-based group, but I’m concerned that if/when the market slows down, the work will dry up and I’ll be in a not-so-good position. I’ve spoken to partners I know and they mentioned that the practices that are more deal-oriented tend to not be the best places to work in a down economy because of the nature of the expertise.

Since you worked in the practice in a down economy, can you explain what, if anything, someone should expect within the next few years?

If you’re in a more balanced practice, I guess this question is irrelevant.

[Anonymous User]

Any words of wisdom for someone who is interested in exec comp? I will be at a big firm this summer (in Houston), and it is my preferred practice. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

One follow-up question: Related to question #2 above, it seems like for some of the service groups there's less of an up or out mentality, but at the same time, you'll see senior associates asked to leave. Did the firm or partners in your group convey to you that you wouldn't be pushed out if you stuck around and, if so, how?

I responded to this one earlier, but for some reason I don't think it went through. In short, I can only speak to my firm. In my practice group, I've only seen one person get asked to leave in the 10 years that I've been here. And let me tell you, that person was really asking for it. Given that, I've never really worried about job security. I knew that as long as I did my work, I'd always have a job. We have a lot of senior attorneys who didn't make partner that are still in the group.

On a related note, I did make clear from my third or fourth year on that I wanted to make partner. So I spoke to my mentors, practice group leaders and other attorneys and asked them what I could do in order to make that happen. Then I worked towards those objectives and kept them posted on my progress. I was always told that I was on track and looking good. I made non-equity partner, but the goal was and continues to be equity partner. I'm told that it will (eventually) happen, but it's somewhat out of my control at this point. I'm just trying to keep my head down and continue to do good work.

At the risk of sounding crass, would you mind discussing non-equity/equity partner comp in Dallas?

Not crass at all. There's virtually no real info on this out there, so I understand asking. I can only speak to my firm. At my firm, equity partner starts at $700k for a first year partner. After that, I really have no idea because it's such a black box. It's based on the firm's profitability and each partner's sharing ratio. I have a better understanding of non-equity partner comp and, at my firm, it depends on your own profitability. Generally speaking, you get a base salary and a bonus, much like associate compensation. The base salary is guaranteed while the bonus depends on how much money you make the firm. The size of the bonus is based on the amount of billings you had for the year. Being in a practice group like ECB, it's terrific for the bonus component because our rates are the highest in the firm. So I can bill a lot less hours to get the max bonus compared to someone from, say, litigation. All in, non-equity partner comp ranges from around $450k to $575k. A non-equity partner in litigation would be towards the bottom of that scale while a tax or ECB non-equity partner would be at the top end.

Is your practice mostly transactional or do you have institutional clients? I’m currently looking to lateral into a more deal-based group, but I’m concerned that if/when the market slows down, the work will dry up and I’ll be in a not-so-good position. I’ve spoken to partners I know and they mentioned that the practices that are more deal-oriented tend to not be the best places to work in a down economy because of the nature of the expertise.

Since you worked in the practice in a down economy, can you explain what, if anything, someone should expect within the next few years?

I've got a decent balance but it's weighted more towards transactional and securities offerings. Deal-based groups should all be doing great right now. It doesn't seem like the market will slow down anytime soon, so I wouldn't delay on making the jump. I've worked through a couple of downturns and the great thing about the ECB practice group is that there's always work. We're relatively recession-proof. First, the deal work won't ever die out. Companies are always going to buy other companies - in an upmarket or downmarket. Second, when companies are hit hard by the economy, they want to figure out ways to pay their employees. So we ramp up in the day-to-day comp/benefits counseling when that happens. Third, if a company goes bankrupt, there's a lot for us to do there too - figuring out severance arrangements, key employee incentive or retention arrangements, etc. Finally, there's the securities work that's always there for us.

I'll put it another way - I've never come in under 2000 hours in any year that I've worked at the firm. And that was my first year. After that, I've always been above 2150 (and mostly over 2300).

Any words of wisdom for someone who is interested in exec comp? I will be at a big firm this summer (in Houston), and it is my preferred practice. Thanks!

Get to know what sort of work the ECB attorneys at your firm do on a day-to-day basis. My firm is more compensation/securities/tax focused, rather than core benefits. Some people like core benefits, some people hate it. We only have a couple of attorneys that do core benefits work at my firm. Then, figure out how much of the work is deal flow and whether you like that. I don't mind working on deals but it can be some late nights and weekends. Some people don't like that. But the most important thing is to decide whether you like your colleagues. Along with tax, ECB is probably the hardest practice group to learn. It often takes attorneys a couple of years to really find their footing and be able to issue spot and properly analyze and resolve issues. The learning curve is steep. So make sure you like the people you'll be working with.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for sharing the non-equity/equity compensation ranges - as a senior associate in ECB, I know as little about how much partners make now as I did as a first year, and it's really hard to know if it's worth it to make the push towards partnership when it's not clear what the end result is going to be financially. This is literally the first time I've seen any numbers, so that at least gives me one data point (even if it's for a different firm and different market). Thanks again!

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for sharing the non-equity/equity compensation ranges - as a senior associate in ECB, I know as little about how much partners make now as I did as a first year, and it's really hard to know if it's worth it to make the push towards partnership when it's not clear what the end result is going to be financially. This is literally the first time I've seen any numbers, so that at least gives me one data point (even if it's for a different firm and different market). Thanks again!

You're welcome. I find it really strange how firms are so transparent with associate comp and then it just becomes a complete black box when it comes to counsel/non-equity partner/partner compensation. I guess maybe because there are less attorneys at that level and probably less competition for counsel and non-equity partners, so it is to each firm's benefit to keep it shrouded in secrecy. Anyway, good luck on whatever your next goal is! If it's partner, don't get discouraged if you don't make it right away. It's really difficult to make partner in biglaw, and especially difficult in a niche, service group like ECB.

[Anonymous User]

Related to the question regarding your salary, if this isn’t going to give you away, could you tell us if your firm is a true “market” firm (salary + bonus are all Cravath scale)?

[Anonymous User]

Related to the question regarding your salary, if this isn’t going to give you away, could you tell us if your firm is a true “market” firm (salary + bonus are all Cravath scale)?

I'm sure someone could figure it out if they really wanted to, but my firm is a true market firm. V50. Salary is on Cravath scale, minimum bonus is on Cravath scale. We exceed Cravath scale by up to 1.4x if you are a high biller.

[Anonymous User]

Related to the question regarding your salary, if this isn’t going to give you away, could you tell us if your firm is a true “market” firm (salary + bonus are all Cravath scale)?

I'm sure someone could figure it out if they really wanted to, but my firm is a true market firm. V50. Salary is on Cravath scale, minimum bonus is on Cravath scale. We exceed Cravath scale by up to 1.4x if you are a high biller.

Thanks! I guess I’m surprised by how “close” the salary between a non-equity partner and senior associate is.

[Anonymous User]

Related to the question regarding your salary, if this isn’t going to give you away, could you tell us if your firm is a true “market” firm (salary + bonus are all Cravath scale)?

I'm sure someone could figure it out if they really wanted to, but my firm is a true market firm. V50. Salary is on Cravath scale, minimum bonus is on Cravath scale. We exceed Cravath scale by up to 1.4x if you are a high biller.

Thanks! I guess I’m surprised by how “close” the salary between a non-equity partner and senior associate is.

It's definitely surprisingly close at the low-end. 8th year Cravath is $340k salary plus $100k bonus, right? So $440k all in. Non-equity partners at the bottom of the scale are making barely over that, but they're also, generally, working a lot less than those senior associates. For what it's worth, my comp is at the max of the non-equity partner scale ($575k) and that would exceed the most that someone can get at my firm as a senior associate by $95k. But to hit the max as a senior associate (i.e., get the 1.4x Cravath bonus), I would have to bill around 2400-2500 hours. As a non-equity partner, I can actually hit my max at around 1800 hours (due to our high rates and comp being based on billings rather than hours). So you're making a significant amount of extra comp for significantly lower hours. It's honestly a really great deal.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an LLM (non NYU/GULC) and it seems like a lot of the NYU/GULC LLMs are very dismissive of ECB. I don't understand why as my executive comp/benefits class was my favorite class in law school and LLM. My question is, does working in M&A/International Tax at Big4 preclude me from making a transition to ECB after a few years if for whatever reason I decide I don't like the Big4/want to try something different? Since I took my exec comp/benefits class, I've been torn between ECB at BigLaw/MidLaw or M&A/Int. Tax at Big4. Ultimately I went with Big4 and now I'm wondering if I'm pigeon-holed.