On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA Forum
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
OP is partnership material.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Thanks for the answer! Makes sense.Anonymous User wrote:I have one primary matter that takes up 80% of my time and then 2 secondary matters that each take up another 10%. I always have a certain amount of non-urgent “drone” type work for the main matter that I can pick up when there is nothing more substantive or urgent on the matter or my secondary cases that needs to be tended toQContinuum wrote:How many different projects do you typically juggle at the same time? Do a lot of the hours come from tasks like doc review or diligence or the like that don't require much thinking?
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
"You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that"
You should rethink the premise that the PRESTIGE of the work is somehow a good thing and that working for psychotically demanding partners and clients is somehow rewarding
You should rethink the premise that the PRESTIGE of the work is somehow a good thing and that working for psychotically demanding partners and clients is somehow rewarding
Last edited by QContinuum on Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Are you a BFR associate at Weil?Anonymous User wrote:Not posting this to brag (obviously, since it isn’t something to “brag” about), but just thought I’d provide some insight for the high billers out there since so many people on here talk about how a 200 hour month is the point of no return.
Anyways, if interested, fire away
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
No offense taken, although the response below you was rather snarky.jacketyellow wrote:Speaking as someone who ran away from biglaw in my second year, I just don't understand how people can put up with this life day-in/day-out. It's crazy. And for what? Bragging rights? At the end of the day, who cares about this stuff? Do you really care about the work you're doing? Be honest.
(I am not trying to be offensive, just thinking to myself.)
I do care about my work and my clients. It might just be my practice group, but I do a lot of meaningful work in direct contact with my clients. But it’s not for bragging rights that’s for sure
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Not OP, but I can take a stab at this one. IME many/most 0Ls enter law school wanting to make an impact on the world (case in point, the "Trump bump" in law school applications). They dream of arguing the next landmark civil rights case, prosecuting the next mafia don, going after Wall Street, repping the next O.J. At the T13, in most cases these 0Ls get sucked into the BigLaw vortex after 1L. The triple lures of extremely high pay, a (more or less) secure job offer two years before graduation, and prestige (the "top of the profession" you cite) are almost irresistible to all but the most committed public interest folks.PartiallyLearnedHand wrote:You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
But the thing is, BigLaw is all about mitigating risk and avoiding the spotlight. It's also all about helping giant corporations. It's the polar opposite of the kind of high-visibility, high-impact, deeply personal work that inspired most 0Ls to attend law school in the first place. So people get disillusioned.
(Of course, this isn't to say BigLaw's "bad." Many of those who "burn out" in BigLaw would likely also "burn out" even if they'd stuck to public interest. New lawyers less than half a decade out of law school aren't going to be arguing the next Obergefell, prosecuting the next mafia don, suing Goldman, or repping the next O.J. Few if any 0Ls applying to law school because of President Trump are going to be in a position to meaningfully challenge the President in court, even if he's reelected next year.)
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
I worked in the corporate world doing non-meaningful work but it wasn’t soul crushing in the way biglaw is. I’m not sure I can articulate why biglaw is (maybe because there is no divide between work and life), but the sheer numbers of people that will tell you the same should be telling.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
With all due respect, speaking from my own experience, despite all your hard work and dedication, you could still either get pushed out or get less than market annual bonus. It doesn't matter that your hours are the highest in your class year, that your work product is good and that most people really like you, because for me it turned out to be a mistake and misunderstanding by the firm, which apparently cannot be reversed. If you are at a NYC biglaw firm with relatively weak financials and lack of transparency, that could happen to you. What I am saying is, I would only work hard and devote my time and energy to a certain point. For non-voluntary work that just has to be done, there is no choice. But I really wouldn't give it all. There is no point. What's the point of doing so much extra work? What's the point of working more hours than others when at the end of the day, none of that may matter? I really would work hard, but not too much. All the cancelled plans, medical problems, weight gain, muscle loss, broken relationships, non-refundable expensive tickets and so on will not necessarily be worth it.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
It’s like you said - for the most part I enjoy my work and enjoy my client relationships, so I’m able to derive meaning from my work. That certainly helps to stave off the negative feelings people get, which I think largely originated from people feeling like what they are doing is meaningless/not worthwhilePartiallyLearnedHand wrote:I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Assume sarcasm, but thanks if not :pjbagelboy wrote:OP is partnership material.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
PartiallyLearnedHand wrote:I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
Answer to (i):
- Becoming a mid-level/senior associate and having even less ability to manage a schedule, while friends that work in other fields that are at the same level are working 9-5, getting paid well, have the ability to get away at nights and weekends (makes you think you realllly fucked your career up by going to law school)
- Working "at the top of the profession" is literally non-sense for 95% of associates. I am happier doing work from my V100 firm with shitty clients than I ever was at my V10 doing WSJ deals and I have more responsibility, client and partner contact.
- Blowing off plans with friends/family and not taking vacation or having hobbies might work for some people, but for the vast majority of human beings, its a miserable way to live (this is something you find out pretty fast BTW when your weekend camping gets cancelled at the last minute because a closing gets pushed or some shit).
- Your reward for doing great work is getting more work to allow you to have an even shittier life outside of the office - literally the better I do at work, the more I hate work since the more my weekends get ruined.
- This isn't like other professions where you may be busy a few months a year and have a normal schedule otherwise. Work can pop up literally any time (i've been staffed on deals while on fucking vacation). Even when you aren't busy, you have the feeling like you may get busy at any moment, which really takes a toll since you never feel in the clear.
Answer to (ii):
OP's big law experience, while he/she may feel its a positive one, is actually a really bad experience. Granted, OP may be the exception and seems like they are gunning for partner, which means they at least like the work enough to give up 10 years of their short life for it. But most people that have to bill 2500+ hours are looking to GTFO cause that is just not a way to live life at all.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
The cynicism is the most absurd thing Ive seen on this forum and in law school. If someone works hard in law school people call him/her a gunner and don't want to be friends with him/her. If someone works hard and bills a lot at work, people on this forum question his/her motivation in every respect and impose what they think should be more important in life on the person.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
You are coming off as some bad parody of a Boomer. Working hard in law school certainly isn't what gets someone labeled as a gunner.Anonymous User wrote:The cynicism is the most absurd thing Ive seen on this forum and in law school. If someone works hard in law school people call him/her a gunner and don't want to be friends with him/her. If someone works hard and bills a lot at work, people on this forum question his/her motivation in every respect and impose what they think should be more important in life on the person.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
No one is shaming hard work in here, we're merely questioning why someone would continue to subject themselves to a 2,880+ hour year pace of billing, which is an outlier on the high end of even the worst biglaw sweatshops.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
People are not being cynical about hard work in and of itself. People are happy to see others working hard, but not too much and not for something that doesn't seem worth the cost. OP is working too much for something which may or may not be worth what he had to give up for. We are not saying he shouldn't work hard. We are saying he should take care of himself and not push himself too much.Anonymous User wrote:The cynicism is the most absurd thing Ive seen on this forum and in law school. If someone works hard in law school people call him/her a gunner and don't want to be friends with him/her. If someone works hard and bills a lot at work, people on this forum question his/her motivation in every respect and impose what they think should be more important in life on the person.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
Last edited by QContinuum on Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
TBH, part sarcasm/schtick, part sincere and glad for you.Anonymous User wrote:Assume sarcasm, but thanks if not :pjbagelboy wrote:OP is partnership material.
I know people like you at my firm - the company (wo)men. As long as you are decent to your juniors, you go for it. Someone has to.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Anonymous User wrote:The cynicism is the most absurd thing Ive seen on this forum and in law school. If someone works hard in law school people call him/her a gunner and don't want to be friends with him/her. If someone works hard and bills a lot at work, people on this forum question his/her motivation in every respect and impose what they think should be more important in life on the person.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
You don’t understand the level of unceasing demand on your time and your life. No one helps you manage your life and stress. They will use people up until they leave or are forced out.
I have been on calls with partners who were in the hospital or on vacation. One call was while the partner’s wife was in the ER.
It’s way beyond hard work and it’s naive to think that it’s just people complaining about working hard. The firm is comparable to the most abusive, narcissistic person in its demands. How you respond to that is up to you.
If you are a prestige and money obsessed workaholic you will probably be happy.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
Wait you're a litigator?!Anonymous User wrote:I have one primary matter that takes up 80% of my time and then 2 secondary matters that each take up another 10%. I always have a certain amount of non-urgent “drone” type work for the main matter that I can pick up when there is nothing more substantive or urgent on the matter or my secondary cases that needs to be tended toQContinuum wrote:How many different projects do you typically juggle at the same time? Do a lot of the hours come from tasks like doc review or diligence or the like that don't require much thinking?
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
You'll understand the first time you get chewed out for a misplaced comma or a un-capitalized defined term. I thought people on these forums were exaggerating how shitty biglaw was when I was in law school. My eyes opened really fucking quickly after i started.PartiallyLearnedHand wrote:I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
The worst-case scenario in big law is grinding like OP is for years only to find out you will not be made partner. This would be a big fear of mine. Since the odds of getting shares are so low regardless to me it doesn't seem worth it to grind like that and instead just do enough to not get fired but don't go overboard.nerd1 wrote:People are not being cynical about hard work in and of itself. People are happy to see others working hard, but not too much and not for something that doesn't seem worth the cost. OP is working too much for something which may or may not be worth what he had to give up for. We are not saying he shouldn't work hard. We are saying he should take care of himself and not push himself too much.Anonymous User wrote:The cynicism is the most absurd thing Ive seen on this forum and in law school. If someone works hard in law school people call him/her a gunner and don't want to be friends with him/her. If someone works hard and bills a lot at work, people on this forum question his/her motivation in every respect and impose what they think should be more important in life on the person.
Jeez if you have issues with people who work extremely hard maybe you yourself should quit law school / big law. Where the fuck is the this shaming on hardworking coming from.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
It’s not for everyone (or even most) which is totally fair. But some like me like it, or at least don’t hate itLaLiLuLeLo wrote:I worked in the corporate world doing non-meaningful work but it wasn’t soul crushing in the way biglaw is. I’m not sure I can articulate why biglaw is (maybe because there is no divide between work and life), but the sheer numbers of people that will tell you the same should be telling.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
To be fair, while you raise many fair points, you also don’t get to say whether my personal experience is positive or really badAnonymous User wrote:PartiallyLearnedHand wrote:I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
Answer to (i):
- Becoming a mid-level/senior associate and having even less ability to manage a schedule, while friends that work in other fields that are at the same level are working 9-5, getting paid well, have the ability to get away at nights and weekends (makes you think you realllly fucked your career up by going to law school)
- Working "at the top of the profession" is literally non-sense for 95% of associates. I am happier doing work from my V100 firm with shitty clients than I ever was at my V10 doing WSJ deals and I have more responsibility, client and partner contact.
- Blowing off plans with friends/family and not taking vacation or having hobbies might work for some people, but for the vast majority of human beings, its a miserable way to live (this is something you find out pretty fast BTW when your weekend camping gets cancelled at the last minute because a closing gets pushed or some shit).
- Your reward for doing great work is getting more work to allow you to have an even shittier life outside of the office - literally the better I do at work, the more I hate work since the more my weekends get ruined.
- This isn't like other professions where you may be busy a few months a year and have a normal schedule otherwise. Work can pop up literally any time (i've been staffed on deals while on fucking vacation). Even when you aren't busy, you have the feeling like you may get busy at any moment, which really takes a toll since you never feel in the clear.
Answer to (ii):
OP's big law experience, while he/she may feel its a positive one, is actually a really bad experience. Granted, OP may be the exception and seems like they are gunning for partner, which means they at least like the work enough to give up 10 years of their short life for it. But most people that have to bill 2500+ hours are looking to GTFO cause that is just not a way to live life at all.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
I think from an hours and work-life balance perspective, your experience is objectively bad, OP, even for biglaw.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
I've been at multiple firms and know a ton of associates at firms and 99% of people I have known that billed 2,500+ had a very negative personal experiences. The very few that didn't have terrible experiences were gunning for partner, and actually seemed to enjoy the stress. They got a kick out of being depended upon and doing big-time deals.Anonymous User wrote:To be fair, while you raise many fair points, you also don’t get to say whether my personal experience is positive or really badAnonymous User wrote:PartiallyLearnedHand wrote:I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:
(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?
(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?
Answer to (i):
- Becoming a mid-level/senior associate and having even less ability to manage a schedule, while friends that work in other fields that are at the same level are working 9-5, getting paid well, have the ability to get away at nights and weekends (makes you think you realllly fucked your career up by going to law school)
- Working "at the top of the profession" is literally non-sense for 95% of associates. I am happier doing work from my V100 firm with shitty clients than I ever was at my V10 doing WSJ deals and I have more responsibility, client and partner contact.
- Blowing off plans with friends/family and not taking vacation or having hobbies might work for some people, but for the vast majority of human beings, its a miserable way to live (this is something you find out pretty fast BTW when your weekend camping gets cancelled at the last minute because a closing gets pushed or some shit).
- Your reward for doing great work is getting more work to allow you to have an even shittier life outside of the office - literally the better I do at work, the more I hate work since the more my weekends get ruined.
- This isn't like other professions where you may be busy a few months a year and have a normal schedule otherwise. Work can pop up literally any time (i've been staffed on deals while on fucking vacation). Even when you aren't busy, you have the feeling like you may get busy at any moment, which really takes a toll since you never feel in the clear.
Answer to (ii):
OP's big law experience, while he/she may feel its a positive one, is actually a really bad experience. Granted, OP may be the exception and seems like they are gunning for partner, which means they at least like the work enough to give up 10 years of their short life for it. But most people that have to bill 2500+ hours are looking to GTFO cause that is just not a way to live life at all.
Unfortunately, I watched the mental and physical health of many associates billing these amounts deteriorate to the point where they literally got doctors notes to stop working for a few months, or they had mental breakdowns - like complete mental breakdowns. Even the ones that loved the work got to points where they'd have a little too much to drink and start wondering aloud WTF they are still doing to themselves. In fact, its the ones that billed 2,500+ every year that seemed to fall the hardest when they realized they had just wasted 5+ years of their life turning documents for assholes.
How you feel is subjective, but 2800 hours billed in a high stress environment is objectively fucking terrible. So sure, you're the outlier who has a positive experience, but most people that bill that much will be looking to get out and do literally anything else.
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Re: On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA
If you have the workflow to bill 11+ hours in a 12 hour shift, it is not that bad billing 240+ a month. Doing it for 15 straight months would be a drag--especially since that must include holiday months like December.
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