Tax LLM: NYU at sticker or GULC with $$ Forum

[foreigntaxllm]

Hi All,

Got admitted to both, GULC has given some scholarship and NYU doesn't (or hasn't, and likely will not hear back from them before GULC commitment deadline).

Basic info: JD from a top school, average GPA in JD class ranking. Second year in applying (also got admitted last year but did not enroll due to no financial aid at all). Took 3 tax classes in JD but none with good grades. (despite the bad results I do recall enjoying the classes and navigating the IRC).
By the time I start my LLM study I will have 9 months clerkship experience in a non-prestigious federal court and 9 months of big law non-tax corporate experience in non-US market.

Reason for Tax LLM: 1. Want to work in US big law and get paid accordingly (although also acceptable to work in US big4) 2. want to be in a rule-based practice where I feel it fits me more. As I see in another reddit thread by a Tax LLM graduate in biglaw, "Much like you I clerked and I enjoyed it. If you enjoyed clerking, tax is somewhat similar. You will get an issue/project, you will do all your write ups and research on your own, and you will bring it to your partner, similar to how you would with the judge." I did enjoy my clerking experience and feel that I was able to perform to the standard but in my current corporate practice I feel (much) less that.

Debt adverse for personal guilt reason: Have about 50 to 60k USD in my own savings and with the GULC financial aid should be able to cover most of the cost on my own with minor support from my family (supposedly below 10k). but for NYU would need more from my family (at least 30k though they are generous and happy to support; but I feel bad about it). Is it worth it? Cost sensitive because I spent 200k in my top school JD (and haven't paid my family back any) and ended up pretty miserable in job search (though frankly speaking there are people I know from my class who are in worse situations).

Foreign non citizen/no green card candidates so not qualified for student loans and have additional drawback for the H1B sponsorship in terms of job search.

Question: 1. Whether worth it to gamble on Tax LLM at all (though I am pretty much determined to enroll; but reality is, worst case scenario, if after graduation I didn't get a US big law/big4 then I will be back where are I am now after 1 year and additional tax llm cost). 2. is NYU worth the additional 25k to 30k.

Leaning towards GULC now due to the $$.

Appreciate any input.

[QContinuum]

First, congrats on getting into both NYU and Georgetown!

I can't comment on your specific odds out of the LL.M. as a non-citizen requiring employer sponsorship. But I can say that for U.S. citizens, NYU is significantly better than Georgetown. BigLaw is a realistic possibility (though difficult) out of NYU; not so much from Georgetown. And NYU typically places significantly more strongly than Georgetown in the Big4 as well - Big4 is the "typical" NYU outcome (though still not guaranteed, even for U.S. citizens). So, again, you're likely to have a tougher road than your U.S. citizen classmates, but the placement power gap between NYU and Georgetown is real and very significant. If you were a U.S. citizen, I'd advise going to NYU over Georgetown with a $30k difference.

Could you get NYU to provide you with details on how non-U.S. citizens have fared in the past few years out of their program? They must have such data internally at least (whether they're willing to provide it to you is a different story). Or maybe get them to connect you with a recent foreign graduate? They'll connect you with a "success story" for sure, but maybe you could sound him/her out as to how their foreign classmates fared in the job search.

One thing: Grades will be critical, particularly first-semester grades. You should have a strategy for doing better than you've done in your previous three tax classes (were those all with the same professor? if so, it might just be an unlucky mismatch with his/her teaching/exam style). You won't have success, even from NYU, if you end up at the bottom of your cohort grades-wise.

Another thing: While NYU's Tax LL.M. program is the strongest in the country, its placement still pales in comparison to T13 J.D. programs. You say you earned a U.S. J.D. from a "top school." Does that mean you earned a T13 J.D., or a T20, or a T1...? If you earned a T13 J.D. and were still not able to land a U.S. position, I'd be hesitant to advise going for the LL.M. at all. If you graduated from a T1 school, though, it may be worth giving the LL.M. a shot.

[Anonymous User]

I have to agree with the above poster on pretty much everything. If you're parents are willing to pay the extra 30k, go to NYU and pay them back. Though I must ask, how did you secure a federal clerkship as a non-us/perm resident student? Which courts accept international student applicants?

[Anonymous User]

As a current NYU student I will tell you that I am so glad I chose NYU and would not recommend pursuing an LLM if it’s not at NYU. The primary reason is that NYU seems to be doing MUCH better in the job placement arena. That said, I’m not sure how successful you will be as a foreign application. I’ve heard that many employers do not sponsor visas. If I were you I would contact career services to find out which employers are open to foreign students. I imagine that several do take nonresidential because we have an international student program that places graduates, but it would still be a concern for me.

For what it’s worth, all of the nonresidents that I know are going to accounting firms. That’s certainly not bad and should also not be considered representative of the career prospects because I don’t know THAT many foreign students...but if it’s biglaw you’re after you might need to make sure it’s a viable option.

[Anonymous User]

I was in the same position as you a a few years ago. I got that special half-ride scholarship with access to small seminars at Georgetown and nothing at NYU.

I was leaning heavily Georgetown because of the money. But, after speaking with professors and practitioners, I decided to go to NYU.

You clearly don’t have roots in or around DC, so people will just assume you didn’t get into NYU if you go to Georgetown. Georgetown is great, but the perception will be that you went there because you didn’t get into NYU (especially since you’re not trying to go into gov.).

In the end, given your career aspirations, I don’t think it makes sense to go to Georgetown.

Also, as an aside, unless your “top school” is a T-14, you will still need to perform relatively well in the LLM to land a biglaw job in New York or another big city.

[foreigntaxllm]

Another thing: While NYU's Tax LL.M. program is the strongest in the country, its placement still pales in comparison to T13 J.D. programs. You say you earned a U.S. J.D. from a "top school." Does that mean you earned a T13 J.D., or a T20, or a T1...? If you earned a T13 J.D. and were still not able to land a U.S. position, I'd be hesitant to advise going for the LL.M. at all. If you graduated from a T1 school, though, it may be worth giving the LL.M. a shot.

Thanks very much for your detailed reply. I did come from a T13 background. Was a summer associate at a Biglaw's foreign office but got non-offered.

[foreigntaxllm]

I have to agree with the above poster on pretty much everything. If you're parents are willing to pay the extra 30k, go to NYU and pay them back. Though I must ask, how did you secure a federal clerkship as a non-us/perm resident student? Which courts accept international student applicants?

Thanks for the reply. I secured outside funding and worked for the Judge for free, which is why I clerked for less than a year as that's the maximum length my visa allows.

[foreigntaxllm]

You clearly don’t have roots in or around DC, so people will just assume you didn’t get into NYU if you go to Georgetown. Georgetown is great, but the perception will be that you went there because you didn’t get into NYU (especially since you’re not trying to go into gov.).

In the end, given your career aspirations, I don’t think it makes sense to go to Georgetown.

Also, as an aside, unless your “top school” is a T-14, you will still need to perform relatively well in the LLM to land a biglaw job in New York or another big city.

I actually spent a year studying in GULC a while ago but I guess that's not the same as having roots in DC such as graduating there/work or live there for a substantial amount of time.

I am from a T14 background but I imagine even with that good tax grades are a must for biglaw jobs.

Thanks very much for your detailed reply.

[Anonymous User]

From what i've heard, the accounting firms were hesitant to sponsor foreign students this year. There was a lot of back and forth on the issue.

Make sure to reach out to foreign students in the program and discuss sponsoring before enrolling.

[foreigntaxllm]

From what i've heard, the accounting firms were hesitant to sponsor foreign students this year. There was a lot of back and forth on the issue.

Make sure to reach out to foreign students in the program and discuss sponsoring before enrolling.

Thanks. I actually just connected with a current foreign student in the NYU program, who said that 2 out of the big4 made it clear H1B sponsorship is a categorical no. So this is really an important factor to take into account.
Also says that despite the official figure, in her experience even for US law students the number of NYU tax LLM who landed biglaw jobs are like every 1 out of 10 or 8.
He/She may be exaggerating a bit due to sample bias, but this is causing me to worry even more if I should think more about cost if best case scenario is that I will land a non-biglaw job.

[Anonymous User]

From what i've heard, the accounting firms were hesitant to sponsor foreign students this year. There was a lot of back and forth on the issue.

Make sure to reach out to foreign students in the program and discuss sponsoring before enrolling.

Thanks. I actually just connected with a current foreign student in the NYU program, who said that 2 out of the big4 made it clear H1B sponsorship is a categorical no. So this is really an important factor to take into account.
Also says that despite the official figure, in her experience even for US law students the number of NYU tax LLM who landed biglaw jobs are like every 1 out of 10 or 8.
He/She may be exaggerating a bit due to sample bias, but this is causing me to worry even more if I should think more about cost if best case scenario is that I will land a non-biglaw job.

Current NYU student here. 1 in 8 or 10 seems like an exaggeration to me. I think if you’re geographically flexible and open to exec comp then the numbers are much higher. If you are nyc fed tax or bust they are probably much lower.

Also, it seems like the same 8-10 people racked up a lot of callbacks and offers. They will only accept one and the others will open up and trickle down the class.

Also, I may be off base here, but I don’t know if anyone who came from a T14 that didn’t get a firm job, and while I think that students from top schools tend to do better in the program, that isn’t universally true. I know someone from a T14 below the median who landed a firm job before TIP.

[WanyeKest]

Current NYU student here. 1 in 8 or 10 seems like an exaggeration to me. I think if you’re geographically flexible and open to exec comp then the numbers are much higher. If you are nyc fed tax or bust they are probably much lower.

Also, it seems like the same 8-10 people racked up a lot of callbacks and offers. They will only accept one and the others will open up and trickle down the class.

Also, I may be off base here, but I don’t know if anyone who came from a T14 that didn’t get a firm job, and while I think that students from top schools tend to do better in the program, that isn’t universally true. I know someone from a T14 below the median who landed a firm job before TIP.

Anon, can you send me a direct message? I have a quick question. I would like the insight of someone who is currently there on a certain market.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think 1 in 8/10 is right. I know a lot of people got big law offers, though not many in "tax" and most in exec comp, some even just general corporate.

My personal experience is I did okay with 3.5 and I got multiple offers before TIP and did very well at TIP too. T14 3.5 with big law summers.

I think the big law firms definitely do look at work experience and JD. If you weren't biglaw material at JD level you probably have to kill it first semester in tax LLM for general tax in NYC. But I know a lot of people who were medianish at T1/high T2 schools and sub 3.3 with big law callbacks and some offers outside of NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Current NYU student here. 1 in 8 or 10 seems like an exaggeration to me. I think if you’re geographically flexible and open to exec comp then the numbers are much higher. If you are nyc fed tax or bust they are probably much lower.

Also, it seems like the same 8-10 people racked up a lot of callbacks and offers. They will only accept one and the others will open up and trickle down the class.

Also, I may be off base here, but I don’t know if anyone who came from a T14 that didn’t get a firm job, and while I think that students from top schools tend to do better in the program, that isn’t universally true. I know someone from a T14 below the median who landed a firm job before TIP.

Anon, can you send me a direct message? I have a quick question. I would like the insight of someone who is currently there on a certain market.

Sure, sent.

[foreigntaxllm]

From what i've heard, the accounting firms were hesitant to sponsor foreign students this year. There was a lot of back and forth on the issue.

Make sure to reach out to foreign students in the program and discuss sponsoring before enrolling.

Thanks. I actually just connected with a current foreign student in the NYU program, who said that 2 out of the big4 made it clear H1B sponsorship is a categorical no. So this is really an important factor to take into account.
Also says that despite the official figure, in her experience even for US law students the number of NYU tax LLM who landed biglaw jobs are like every 1 out of 10 or 8.
He/She may be exaggerating a bit due to sample bias, but this is causing me to worry even more if I should think more about cost if best case scenario is that I will land a non-biglaw job.

Current NYU student here. 1 in 8 or 10 seems like an exaggeration to me. I think if you’re geographically flexible and open to exec comp then the numbers are much higher. If you are nyc fed tax or bust they are probably much lower.

Also, it seems like the same 8-10 people racked up a lot of callbacks and offers. They will only accept one and the others will open up and trickle down the class.

Also, I may be off base here, but I don’t know if anyone who came from a T14 that didn’t get a firm job, and while I think that students from top schools tend to do better in the program, that isn’t universally true. I know someone from a T14 below the median who landed a firm job before TIP.

Thank you as a foreign student I am geographically flexible. I am also barred in both NY and CA. The only concern is that I cannot convince employers I have a tie to certain market - I have basically never been out of the area where I went to law school.

[foreigntaxllm]

I don't think 1 in 8/10 is right. I know a lot of people got big law offers, though not many in "tax" and most in exec comp, some even just general corporate.

My personal experience is I did okay with 3.5 and I got multiple offers before TIP and did very well at TIP too. T14 3.5 with big law summers.

I think the big law firms definitely do look at work experience and JD. If you weren't biglaw material at JD level you probably have to kill it first semester in tax LLM for general tax in NYC. But I know a lot of people who were medianish at T1/high T2 schools and sub 3.3 with big law callbacks and some offers outside of NYC.

Thank you are you of class of 2019? I assume you have received a return offer after summer but decided to pursue tax?

[Anonymous User]

Yes and correct.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. I actually just connected with a current foreign student in the NYU program, who said that 2 out of the big4 made it clear H1B sponsorship is a categorical no. So this is really an important factor to take into account.
Also says that despite the official figure, in her experience even for US law students the number of NYU tax LLM who landed biglaw jobs are like every 1 out of 10 or 8.
He/She may be exaggerating a bit due to sample bias, but this is causing me to worry even more if I should think more about cost if best case scenario is that I will land a non-biglaw job.

With regard to biglaw, i'd like to add that for a lot of the top candidates in the program (T14 background, biglaw experience, 3.7+ gpa), big4 was a preferred outcome. As a result, it's kind of hard to say that there are only 10-12 spots. I think alot of people that got rejected from biglaw just didn't have the credentials.

If you're flexible geographically, willing to work in exec comp and come from a T14, I think you could probably get biglaw with a 3.3-3.4 in the program.

[Anonymous User]

With regard to biglaw, i'd like to add that for a lot of the top candidates in the program (T14 background, biglaw experience, 3.7+ gpa), big4 was a preferred outcome. As a result, it's kind of hard to say that there are only 10-12 spots. I think alot of people that got rejected from biglaw just didn't have the credentials.

If you're flexible geographically, willing to work in exec comp and come from a T14, I think you could probably get biglaw with a 3.3-3.4 in the program.

Big 4 was preferred outcome for me. And I think you can get biglaw with a little lower than 3.3 if you're flexible geographically.

I had a decent chunk of the offers before first semester grades came out (I only interviewed for NYC positions) so I am sure a lot of it was just JD grades but I know people with lower than 3.3 tax LLM and no big law experience that now has biglaw offers.

I think there are a LOT more than 10-12 spots in tax+exec comp, it's probably more like 30-40 at least (and I suspect more) but keep in mind we're also competing with incoming summer associate JDs and even some (though few) laterals from Big 4 trying to get a big jump in salary.

I think it's best to think of NYU tax LLM as a little extra to get you big law if you were close, a lot extra if you kill it first semester, a "reset button" if you had prior big law experience but for some reason left (I know a few in this camp), and another crack at the NYC market if you were already big law material (including international big law, like Skadden in HK/Canada or something like that) but wanted to practice specifically tax or wanted another crack at NYC/DC.

Re: OP specifically

Assuming by top school you're talking T14, medianish grades put you in the "already big law material" range and most people in your situation had at least some interviews just via resume book before first semester grades came out and some had offers. (I had one from a V10 NYC tax, above median but below honors at T14). I chose NYU because it's closer to home and I think it's a little more prestigious but I don't know how much of a difference it will make for you. Your clerkship and JD will be looked at very favorably and the difference between GULC and NYU LLM will not look that different to TIP recruiters. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if my pre-TIP interviews (and offers by extension) were only available to NYU Tax LLMs.

[Anonymous User]

Big 4 was preferred outcome for me. And I think you can get biglaw with a little lower than 3.3 if you're flexible geographically.

I had a decent chunk of the offers before first semester grades came out (I only interviewed for NYC positions) so I am sure a lot of it was just JD grades but I know people with lower than 3.3 tax LLM and no big law experience that now has biglaw offers.

I think there are a LOT more than 10-12 spots in tax+exec comp, it's probably more like 30-40 at least (and I suspect more) but keep in mind we're also competing with incoming summer associate JDs and even some (though few) laterals from Big 4 trying to get a big jump in salary.

I think it's best to think of NYU tax LLM as a little extra to get you big law if you were close, a lot extra if you kill it first semester, a "reset button" if you had prior big law experience but for some reason left (I know a few in this camp), and another crack at the NYC market if you were already big law material (including international big law, like Skadden in HK/Canada or something like that) but wanted to practice specifically tax or wanted another crack at NYC/DC.

Re: OP specifically

Assuming by top school you're talking T14, medianish grades put you in the "already big law material" range and most people in your situation had at least some interviews just via resume book before first semester grades came out and some had offers. (I had one from a V10 NYC tax, above median but below honors at T14). I chose NYU because it's closer to home and I think it's a little more prestigious but I don't know how much of a difference it will make for you. Your clerkship and JD will be looked at very favorably and the difference between GULC and NYU LLM will not look that different to TIP recruiters. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if my pre-TIP interviews (and offers by extension) were only available to NYU Tax LLMs.

I think this anon is generally right about the number of spots especially in exec comp. As far as the notion that "the difference between GULC and NYU LLM will not look that different to TIP recruiters"...I'm not sure about that. I don't want to sound elitist at all, but it seemed like the higher end firms at TIP were much more interested in NYU students than GULC students. Some mentioned that they were annoyed how many NYU students had offers expiring shortly after TIP and that they were considering hiring exclusively from NYU's OCI in the future. They may not follow through, but it was mentioned by at least 3 employers that I spoke with who seemed very frustrated by timing constraints.

I'm sure GULC places a decent number of students at firms, but I think NYU far out performs them in terms of placement. You might want to look at the 2019 TIP/TARE thread on this forum. Most students have not specified which program they attended, but I believe all the ones who have that have big law offers are at NYU.

[Anonymous User]

I think this anon is generally right about the number of spots especially in exec comp. As far as the notion that "the difference between GULC and NYU LLM will not look that different to TIP recruiters"...I'm not sure about that. I don't want to sound elitist at all, but it seemed like the higher end firms at TIP were much more interested in NYU students than GULC students. Some mentioned that they were annoyed how many NYU students had offers expiring shortly after TIP and that they were considering hiring exclusively from NYU's OCI in the future. They may not follow through, but it was mentioned by at least 3 employers that I spoke with who seemed very frustrated by timing constraints.

Current GULC LLM here, anon b/c I'm still deciding between offers. Whether biglaw TIP recruiters prefer NYU or GULC students is going to depend on the firm itself, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that some firms within the V20 will prefer NYU. For example it seemed like Mayer Brown had no interest in GULC this year at TIP, but that's also not surprising given Mayer Brown's reputation as a white shoe firm that places a premium on pedigree. That said, there were plenty of firms at TIP where I competed with NYU students and I ended up with offers. But I have no idea if those NYU students simply weren't given offers or if they were given offers and passed. The truth is NYU and GULC attract different types of students/personalities and there isn't much interaction between the schools. Because we don't interact with students at the other schools much, it's extremely difficult for us to comment on what is actually taking place outside of our own school.

I'm sure GULC places a decent number of students at firms, but I think NYU far out performs them in terms of placement. You might want to look at the 2019 TIP/TARE thread on this forum. Most students have not specified which program they attended, but I believe all the ones who have that have big law offers are at NYU.

I'm unclear as to why you think "NYU far out performs them in terms of placement." I'm not disputing that NYU does in fact place more students in law firms but it seems like you are exaggerating that difference a bit. NYU's law firm placement for 2018 was 42.4%. GULC's law firm placement for 2018 was 34%. Both programs have roughly 100-110 students each year, so NYU is only placing about 10 more students in law firms. I'm also not sure why you assume that all the biglaw offers from TIP have gone to NYU, but I know for a fact that this assumption is incorrect. I'm definitely not disputing NYU is objectively the top program but I think outside of the V30 the difference between the programs becomes dramatically less important, especially if you are specializing within each program (EB/EC, trusts & estates, SALT, etc.).

OP, if you want to read about LLM students stressing about when certain firms will extend offers after callbacks, the 2019 TIP/TARE thread is a great place to look. If you want actual information about the placement power of NYU and GULC, then you should just look at the actual numbers from last year. Both schools report their employment stats for the LLM programs each year. I'd also recommend contacting each school's career services office and asking them how many students from their school actually applied to TIP. They have this information handy and it will give you a good idea of how many students had already secured jobs before TIP.

NYU: https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/f ... istics.pdf
GULC: https://curriculum.law.georgetown.edu/l ... s_2018.pdf

[Anonymous User]

I am the anon a few posts above.

I don’t disagree NYU is top program and probably has some advantages. I just don’t think it’s a big one if your JD is already T14 and you had decent grades due to my own experience. I had offers before grades came out so I thought it was pretty obvious the tax LLM is secondary.

Of course it’s also possible NYU tax LLM is prestigious enough they didn’t care about grades. I really didn’t get that impression though during interviews.

If you are big law or bust, I think you should pay the 30k and improve your chances by even a bit. Big law, especially NYC general tax isn’t a sure thing even for strong performers so every little % helps.

[Anonymous User]

I am the anon a few posts above.

I don’t disagree NYU is top program and probably has some advantages. I just don’t think it’s a big one if your JD is already T14 and you had decent grades due to my own experience. I had offers before grades came out so I thought it was pretty obvious the tax LLM is secondary.

Of course it’s also possible NYU tax LLM is prestigious enough they didn’t care about grades. I really didn’t get that impression though during interviews.

If you are big law or bust, I think you should pay the 30k and improve your chances by even a bit. Big law, especially NYC general tax isn’t a sure thing even for strong performers so every little % helps.

Do you have any idea about the position of a JD from T25 who had top 30-40% grade? Is there any chance for a candidate like this to reach Biglaws?

[Anonymous User]

I am the anon a few posts above.

I don’t disagree NYU is top program and probably has some advantages. I just don’t think it’s a big one if your JD is already T14 and you had decent grades due to my own experience. I had offers before grades came out so I thought it was pretty obvious the tax LLM is secondary.

Of course it’s also possible NYU tax LLM is prestigious enough they didn’t care about grades. I really didn’t get that impression though during interviews.

If you are big law or bust, I think you should pay the 30k and improve your chances by even a bit. Big law, especially NYC general tax isn’t a sure thing even for strong performers so every little % helps.

Do you have any idea about the position of a JD from T25 who had top 30-40% grade? Is there any chance for a candidate like this to reach Biglaws?

I think so, assuming you do well in the program (i.e. 3.5+). I was top 30-ish% at a T25 JD and ended up with several biglaw offers. I know lots of other people from T25s who were in the same boat. If you are geographically flexible, you should be ok. Even if you do about average in the program (3.2-3.3), I think you will land something if you are open to exec. comp and flexible.

[Anonymous User]

I am the anon a few posts above.

I don’t disagree NYU is top program and probably has some advantages. I just don’t think it’s a big one if your JD is already T14 and you had decent grades due to my own experience. I had offers before grades came out so I thought it was pretty obvious the tax LLM is secondary.

Of course it’s also possible NYU tax LLM is prestigious enough they didn’t care about grades. I really didn’t get that impression though during interviews.

Edit: I went to NYU

If you are big law or bust, I think you should pay the 30k and improve your chances by even a bit. Big law, especially NYC general tax isn’t a sure thing even for strong performers so every little % helps.

Do you have any idea about the position of a JD from T25 who had top 30-40% grade? Is there any chance for a candidate like this to reach Biglaws?

I graduated at median from a T25 and my LLM GPA after the first semester was a very low3.1 or so. I got offers from the big4 and biglaw (v50 ranges). I was K-JD and didn’t have any unique experience. I had summered at a regional firm before.

FYI, I ended up taking an offer at a less prestigious biglaw firm closer to home.