What kind of partners or work do you avoid? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Most people have a handful of work they avoid and people they won’t work with. Since firms generally won’t let associates rate their work or partners, what are some things or qualities you avoid?

[Yugihoe]

Partners who micromanage and the team is leanly staffed (i.e. the partner constantly emails you directly as the junior to do X, Y, Z). They often won't have time to explain anything to you unless they are good. You'll know their management style after working once or twice with them.

Partners who have a reputation for not treating associates well. You'll know who they are given more senior associates will not want to work with them either. Or ask your classmates.

Also don't like "filling in" or coming in for "part of the transaction" after it's already well underway, especially if it relates to the first item I posted. You won't have the necessary background information on the deal and will be in for a bad time.

Finally, multi-jurisdictional deals always suck. You'll be chasing local counsel for things, and almost no one cares as much about the docs as much as you and your client does. You'll wake up to a bunch of emails from overnight too, so there is no respite or break. Also any secured deals with like 100 guarantors - you're in for a bad time but unfortunately, you won't really be able to screen for this in advance.

[bwh8813]

The "everything is a fire drill" partner who always needs docs that night but doesn't look at them or give comments for two days.

[Bllljd115]

Similar to the above two posters. There are some partners who are just straight-up sociopaths/screamers. You know them because they always seem to have teams heavily staffed with junior associates or they consistently work with only the one or two senior associates who are cut from the same mold as them. Avoiding them is basically a function of staying busy enough for other people so that they will protect you from this partner.

The drive-by micromanager is another type I can't stand (or only in small doses). This is a partner who is usually more junior and they got roped into doing cross-departmental work or work none of the more senior partners want to deal with. They have bigger matters going on that they spend their time on, so you'll constantly have to explain to them what's going on in the matter, summarize things that they should already know, can't get them to look at anything until the last minute, but if everything isn't done perfectly and you can't read their mind all hell breaks loose because they can't "trust" you to handle it. Of course, they don't want to just admit they don't have time for/don't want to handle the matter and move themselves out of the chain of communication.

Finally, the partner that think you are a 24/7 secretary. Is always asking you to send them some email from a week ago that they were on, to send calendar invites for calls you aren't even at, send documents late at night, turn line edits on the weekend, make document binders for them, and then gets pissed when these things do not happen instantaneously because you're dealing with other stuff or you just want a damn weekend off.

[Anonymous User]

The partner i hate is a combo of screamer/drive-by micromanager. I didn't have the vocabulary to describe why i was so miserable until i read this thread. I can confirm it's fucking miserable working for them.

[Person1111]

You also get the partners who are openly nice but then stab you in the back/throw you under the bus. I think that is absolutely the most important type to avoid.

The one thing I will add is that screamers come in all flavors. Some are sociopaths who you should avoid at all costs, but others are genuinely good bosses who just take out the inevitable frustrations of the job by yelling. If you can deal with it (and recognize that the yelling is not personal but is just them expressing frustration), these people can be great resources for you - especially because there is often less competition to be their go-to associate.

[Whatislaw]

Absolutely agree with the following types of Partners not to work for (if you can):

- "Everything is a fire drill!" These partners don't care at all about reasonableness of turn around or what is going on in your life to the point where they will have you turn around a huge task overnight sometimes.

- "24/7 Secretary" These partners like those above have said will make you do all sorts of useless crap at all hours and are surprised when you're not "ecstatic" to do stupid crap for them weekend in weekend out.

- "Back stabbing" These partners who smile at you and pat you on your back, but then throw you under the bus are must avoids. They are deadly beyond belief.

In general, I find that if a Partner is a shitty person in general then they're shitty to work for. If they're a somewhat decent person, you tend to be okay.

[Anonymous User]

I left my firm mainly because I predominantly worked with a partner that could be described the by qualities above - I had to send him multiple emails on the same thing, never explained assignments to me, losses when I didn’t know about concepts I never came across before. Now that I am starting a second job, I am worried the partners I work with will be like him. I’ve been reading secondary sources just to get more well versed, even though I don’t think it’s necessary.

[Anonymous User]

You also get the partners who are openly nice but then stab you in the back/throw you under the bus. I think that is absolutely the most important type to avoid.

The one thing I will add is that screamers come in all flavors. Some are sociopaths who you should avoid at all costs, but others are genuinely good bosses who just take out the inevitable frustrations of the job by yelling. If you can deal with it (and recognize that the yelling is not personal but is just them expressing frustration), these people can be great resources for you - especially because there is often less competition to be their go-to associate.

I'm currently working for a partner like this, and it's a nightmare. Assignments don't get explained, so I'm often left on my own to figure out what the question is as well as the solution. Briefs/assignments don't get reviewed until the day before the filing date, even if submitted to this partner weeks in advance.

Finally, when the partner inevitably doesn't get what they want due to lack of focus/attention, this partner will talk about how bad of an associate you are behind your back to other associates. It's totally inappropriate. Want to last at this office for at least a year but not sure if I'll make it tbh.

[Anonymous User]

Definitely the fire-drill and bus guy. Also:

1. The cheapskate who picks up low budget cases, makes you do all the work, and cuts your hours.

2. The patronizing micro-manager who talks to you like you’re five.

[Anonymous User]

Definitely the fire-drill and bus guy. Also:

1. The cheapskate who picks up low budget cases, makes you do all the work, and cuts your hours.

2. The patronizing micro-manager who talks to you like you’re five.

Curious -- if your hours are cut because of low budget, is your review based on pre or post cut hours?

[Anonymous User]

Definitely the fire-drill and bus guy. Also:

1. The cheapskate who picks up low budget cases, makes you do all the work, and cuts your hours.

2. The patronizing micro-manager who talks to you like you’re five.

Curious -- if your hours are cut because of low budget, is your review based on pre or post cut hours?

This is going to be firm and context dependent.

Generally, reviews are based on pre-cut hours. As long as your realization rate is within the realm of normal, the fact that some of your hours got cut shouldn't mean anything. Every associate gets some of their time written off. Theoretically, if you work for a partner who unfairly writes off a lot of your time it could be a black mark on your realization rate and that could hurt you. But most partners don't like doing that too often, because they'll get dung if their matters see too much time written off.

The really bad partner to work for is the one that manipulates associate time in a way to avoid writing off billable time. So, rather than write off your billable time, they'll either have someone transfer it to non-billable time or preemptively ask you to bill real work to non-billable codes. In that circumstance, you don't get credit at all.

At my firm, one particularly bad partner to work for was notorious for this. One associate actually complained to management about it, and management's response was essentially "push back on it yourself." The partner justified circumventing the write-off rule by trashing the associate's work and reputation (even though pretty much every associate who worked for this partner ran into these fake write-off issues). Eventually the partner was let go, but not before damaging more than a few careers.

As an aside, the fact that your hours get cut is only half the reason that the nano-rainmakers are bad to work for. The other half is that they almost certainly don't have enough work to supply an associate full time (let alone a senior associate / junior partner), so long term they really don't do much for your career, and short term the prevent you from working for or making connections with better sponsors.

[Anonymous User]

Partners who don't have enough billable work and

- Make you do a ton of business development, and/or
- Make you spend a lot of time that'll get written off and - almost equally as bad - won't turn into more quality work

[EminentDumain]

Definitely the fire-drill and bus guy. Also:

1. The cheapskate who picks up low budget cases, makes you do all the work, and cuts your hours.

2. The patronizing micro-manager who talks to you like you’re five.

For point 1, does that mean s/he cuts your hours only for the client, or also for your bonus level? And if the former, does that affect your reputation at all?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Would rather work with a screamer than a neurotic bootlicker partner. Screamer will scream and your life will suck for a few minutes. Neurotic bootlicker will over promise, make stupid comments, call you at 10 pm, and you’ll generally work more (and later) on average than with screamer. Miss me with that.

[Anonymous User]

Finally, a thread where I can contribute. I’m only a junior, but I’ve heard of/worked with (in no particular order):

1. The Thrower. Worse than the screamer. This partner throws your work back at you, literally. Often accompanied by screaming. HR has “fixed” them and now they only throw stuff at the walls/floor. They still scream.

2. The IDGAF’r. Will send your work directly up to a senior partner without looking at it, and after giving you a vague assignment. Probably not that bad once you know what you’re doing, but it’s terrifying as a junior.

3. The sociopath. This partner actually gives you more work when you tell them you’re busy. Often accompanied by an attempt to make it seem reasonable. For example, “I know you’re on vacation/at a funeral, but could you just run these changes quickly for me? It doesn’t have to be in the next few minutes but sometime tonight.”

4. The Vampire. This partner does their best work at 3 am. And expects you to do the same. It’s especially fun when you get an assignment from this partner and the other partner who likes 6:30 am call.


These aren’t all my stories, but these are all ones that exist in my firm.

[Anonymous User]

These comments are so true.

I had to work for the drive by micromanager/screamer for a few years. He also banged on his desk very loudly and threw a tantrum when things didn’t go his way. So glad I’m out of there. Now most of my partners work remote and if they need something they’ll send me an email or give me a call....

[Anonymous User]

Worst partner I ever worked for was a nightmarish cross between Fire Drill and Drive-By Micromanager. Everything had to be done yesterday regardless of the actual deadline, everything was critical, and every last insignificant email (even internal emails!) had to be written according to his idiosyncratic writing style.

[Anonymous User]

The reverse fire drill: this partner is so slow and inefficient that she makes you miss the fire drill partner. She can’t be bothered by deadlines, even court deadlines, treats the FRCP like the federal suggestions of civil procedure, and leaves you scrambling at the last minute to fix her mistakes. She ignores your email reminders and pulls rank on you any time you tell her something must be done that day. Something needs to be filed in two hours? She still wants to talk about possible arguments that don’t exist. The only thing she’s really good for is reminding you to appreciate your other bosses.

[Anonymous User]

The neurotic partner swamped with other work. He’s too busy to sit down for ten minutes and think/talk about what needs to be done, so you just get urgent emails as problems crop up. No email is longer than two sentences — usually forwarding a chain and adding “please do this ASAP” — and you never know what’s coming next. That’s the worst part of working for him. When you’re on the matter, something could come up at any time of day/night and you cannot know when. Even if nothing comes up, you constantly dread the next email/call. Once you called him to ask follow-up questions, but he hung up after 37 seconds to take a more important call (every call is more important than yours.)

[Anonymous User]

The neurotic partner swamped with other work. He’s too busy to sit down for ten minutes and think/talk about what needs to be done, so you just get urgent emails as problems crop up. No email is longer than two sentences — usually forwarding a chain and adding “please do this ASAP” — and you never know what’s coming next. That’s the worst part of working for him. When you’re on the matter, something could come up at any time of day/night and you cannot know when. Even if nothing comes up, you constantly dread the next email/call. Once you called him to ask follow-up questions, but he hung up after 37 seconds to take a more important call (every call is more important than yours.)

this x 100

[Person1111]

The reverse fire drill: this partner is so slow and inefficient that she makes you miss the fire drill partner. She can’t be bothered by deadlines, even court deadlines, treats the FRCP like the federal suggestions of civil procedure, and leaves you scrambling at the last minute to fix her mistakes. She ignores your email reminders and pulls rank on you any time you tell her something must be done that day. Something needs to be filed in two hours? She still wants to talk about possible arguments that don’t exist. The only thing she’s really good for is reminding you to appreciate your other bosses.

I've worked with this type. You just have to give her a bunch of lead time, be clear about what the deadlines are (both so that she follows them and so that you are protected in case she tries to throw you under the bus later), and accept that it's ultimately not on you if she chooses to blow them.

[Bllljd115]

The neurotic partner swamped with other work. He’s too busy to sit down for ten minutes and think/talk about what needs to be done, so you just get urgent emails as problems crop up. No email is longer than two sentences — usually forwarding a chain and adding “please do this ASAP” — and you never know what’s coming next. That’s the worst part of working for him. When you’re on the matter, something could come up at any time of day/night and you cannot know when. Even if nothing comes up, you constantly dread the next email/call. Once you called him to ask follow-up questions, but he hung up after 37 seconds to take a more important call (every call is more important than yours.)

this x 100

This type of partner has the tendency to think they are the shit (moreso than other partners), since they are always correcting associate mistakes, and don't realize those "mistakes" are really a function of their failure to give clear direction, the habit of cutting you off before you can explain what the problem is, or to take time to think through projects before they hand them off.

[QContinuum]

The reverse fire drill: this partner is so slow and inefficient that she makes you miss the fire drill partner. She can’t be bothered by deadlines, even court deadlines, treats the FRCP like the federal suggestions of civil procedure, and leaves you scrambling at the last minute to fix her mistakes. She ignores your email reminders and pulls rank on you any time you tell her something must be done that day. Something needs to be filed in two hours? She still wants to talk about possible arguments that don’t exist. The only thing she’s really good for is reminding you to appreciate your other bosses.

I've worked with this type. You just have to give her a bunch of lead time, be clear about what the deadlines are (both so that she follows them and so that you are protected in case she tries to throw you under the bus later), and accept that it's ultimately not on you if she chooses to blow them.

I mean, that strategy looks nice in theory, but it doesn't work that great in practice. You can't force the Reverse Fire Drill partner to follow the deadline no matter how clear you are and how much lead time you give him. You also can't stop him from throwing you under the bus regardless of how much documentation you have. What can you do - blow the whistle to the client (Hey Client, I'm Associate and I recommend that you demand to work with a new partner!)? Report the matter to the practice group leader? Refuse to accept the critique at your performance eval?

[Anonymous User]

The reverse fire drill: this partner is so slow and inefficient that she makes you miss the fire drill partner. She can’t be bothered by deadlines, even court deadlines, treats the FRCP like the federal suggestions of civil procedure, and leaves you scrambling at the last minute to fix her mistakes. She ignores your email reminders and pulls rank on you any time you tell her something must be done that day. Something needs to be filed in two hours? She still wants to talk about possible arguments that don’t exist. The only thing she’s really good for is reminding you to appreciate your other bosses.

I've worked with this type. You just have to give her a bunch of lead time, be clear about what the deadlines are (both so that she follows them and so that you are protected in case she tries to throw you under the bus later), and accept that it's ultimately not on you if she chooses to blow them.

I mean, that strategy looks nice in theory, but it doesn't work that great in practice. You can't force the Reverse Fire Drill partner to follow the deadline no matter how clear you are and how much lead time you give him. You also can't stop him from throwing you under the bus regardless of how much documentation you have. What can you do - blow the whistle to the client (Hey Client, I'm Associate and I recommend that you demand to work with a new partner!)? Report the matter to the practice group leader? Refuse to accept the critique at your performance eval?

^ exactly. She ignores my proposed deadlines and acts like she has everything under control. I’m convinced she would have blamed me for last week if the other partners didn’t already know. It’s frustrating enough that I’m considering lateraling.