It’s the little things....... Forum

[rcharter1978]

As someone who works in fedgov I find this discussion fascinating. It sounds like there are so many stressors and variables in firm life.

I know you all make gobs of money, but I'm sorry you have to deal with all that.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

.

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

This.

I'm a URM, former clerk (very competitive district and circuit clerkship), an associate at a top litigation boutique (Kellogg, Susman, Quinn, etc), and am considered attractive according to conventional standards (the idea that attractiveness negates centuries of oppression is simple-minded at best). I have experienced almost all of the above. Blake who was hired after me has had no trouble and he’s not conventionally attractive.

I meant to respond to you earlier but didn’t have the opportunity til now.

I really am sorry for everything you are going through. in the first draft of your post (before the edits) you seemed to almost blame the younger “Blakes” and “Brendas” as much as the partners and ppl in power who perpetuate the issues you are experiencing. Others seem to echo that, or at least resent Blake or Brenda.

As a white male, who is more of a Beta Tom than an Alpha Blake, I sincerely would like to know how I can help make things better. To be honest, when I get work I am not thinking of anyone else (white or POC). I am just trying to get through this hell job as best I can. I come from a poor family - dumb as hell backwoods white trash - so I feel like I struggle to fit in and am relieved whenever a senior or partner treats me with a bare minimum of respect. I recognize that being white is an advantage, and it’s not fair. But also, I am just a person like you, who also gets treated like shit at my job, is tired, overworked, and barely has time to eat food sometimes. I’m not actively trying to oppress anyone, I’m just trying to get by.

I honestly don’t know what I can do to help with your situation when I have no power or say at my firm, other than try my best to be nice and respectful to everyone regardless of color, gender, etc. but I’d like to help, and for you not to resent me. any advice would be appreciated.

As mentioned above, I am a white man, so I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth but I wanted to respond to this. I'll leave it to others to say what we can do to help but I also want to note that I think a lot of white men (not necessarily you) can get caught up in feeling somewhat helpless beyond what they are doing, which should at least be being inclusive and actively trying recognize biases. Personally, I think our URM colleagues don't blame non-URMs for the benefits they receive. I assume they are frustrated with the system that creates that situation. I think they understand that we're all just trying to survive and do the best we can for our families. And I get the impulse to mention that but I think most everyone does understand that and truly don't begrudge us for it. It's more about them discussing their frustrations and trying to explore the issue. It doesn't necessarily make us less than. It's about recognizing different treatment. It's frustrating.

[Anonymous User]

Minority male. We have a similar problem; some partners will even favor junior wasps over minority anyone. Four of us are stuck taking orders from a wasp partner and his first year associate. There were five, but one lateraled last month.

Haha, this happens at my firm, too.............. we had a first year attend a Markman Hearing in federal court, while the mid-level black associate on the litigation stayed behind. The black associate has a fantastic rep, so I doubt bad work product is why they got excluded.

That’s an asshole move on the partner’s part. I’m surprised the mid-level didn’t abandon that case.

In ours, the client is based out of South America and one of the other associates speaks fluent Spanish. So instead of having him take the lead, the partner picked a wasp junior who was tasked to find a translator. The partner told the client the translator cost was necessary and never gave the client the option of speaking to the Spanish-speaking associate.

That sounds a bit off . . . Usually languages are listed on profiles that anyone can see. The client can dictate the relationship as they control the workflow. Are you telling me this client didn't bother to look through profiles and save translator fees? When clients will regularly nickel and dime over billed hours?

You’re right in that languages are listed and normally clients make the request early. We’re not sure what’s going on with this client, but none of us are allowed to directly communicate with him expect the partner. Our best guess is that the bilingual associate was portrayed as not always available. (Not sure what his actual availability is but he was pissed about not getting to discuss strategy with the client.)

[Wild Card]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

The resentment and humiliation are real, and I'm happy to see it voiced here and to know that I'm not alone.

With respect to the URM struggles described earlier ITT: lol do you all work at Skadden?

[Anonymous User]

Re: "AHA" and what not.

On a personal level. I didn't grow up around the Asian subculture. I am 3rd/4th (depending on which side you count from) gen Asian American that grew up in a Jewish town. I went to an almost entirely white boarding school. I don't know the k-pop, c-pop, and whatever Asian models the many Asian cliques talk about nor am I really interested in going to Asian clubs like "Mission." With all due respect, when a random person walks up to me and makes eye contact, I don't feel the obligation to talk no matter what his/her race is. And I very actively dislike the idea that I'd be called "AHA" if some random Asian guy walked up to me and I declined to initiate conversation.

I guess what I am trying to say is although I try to help people, Asians in particular because I do have a unique perspective on a lot of the issues we face, I do not like being told I am an "AHA" because I don't feel obligated to help every Asian I meet. I also don't like it when people look disappointed when I know nothing about anime, K-pop, or whatever Asian model. Another thing that really annoys me is when people insist that I am "Chinese" and should learn the language and give back to the "motherland." (No joke, this happens every few months, sometimes after I decline to refer their resumes.) And I feel even more annoyed when people ask me when I don't join them anymore after they spent entire dinners talking in Korean/Chinese (languages I don't understand) about topics I know literally nothing about.

I hate it even more when the same people turn around and accuse me of being "AHA" just trying to assimilate into mainstream culture without any knowledge of what I do in my spare time (which includes a lot of volunteering in the Chinese immigrant community and mentoring+interview coaching for anyone that asks). No, I just don't want to hang out with you because you are literally talking about things I have zero interest in and in a language I don't understand.

A personal story of mine that really stuck with me is during one Thanksgiving in law school, I invited friends that didn't go home to Thanksgiving dinner. It was a pretty even split between Chinese speaking exchange students and American students who only spoke English. (5/5? 6/5? something like it). It was the most awkward Thanksgiving dinner I ever hosted because the Chinese speaking students gathered on one end of the table and spoke Chinese all the time except one who made conscious effort to include the English speakers into the conversation. This is just self-sabotage throwing away one of the best opportunities to really network on a personal level. Some of the very same people would post in WeChat moments about going to networking events for that longshot connection at an offer.

Much longer rant than I intended but there is literally no other forum for me to air a lot of these thoughts and that whole "AHA" thing just triggered me.

[Anonymous User]

Re: "AHA" and what not.

On a personal level. I didn't grow up around the Asian subculture. I am 3rd/4th (depending on which side you count from) gen Asian American that grew up in a Jewish town. I went to an almost entirely white boarding school. I don't know the k-pop, c-pop, and whatever Asian models the many Asian cliques talk about nor am I really interested in going to Asian clubs like "Mission." With all due respect, when a random person walks up to me and makes eye contact, I don't feel the obligation to talk no matter what his/her race is. And I very actively dislike the idea that I'd be called "AHA" if some random Asian guy walked up to me and I declined to initiate conversation.

I guess what I am trying to say is although I try to help people, Asians in particular because I do have a unique perspective on a lot of the issues we face, I do not like being told I am an "AHA" because I don't feel obligated to help every Asian I meet. I also don't like it when people look disappointed when I know nothing about anime, K-pop, or whatever Asian model. Another thing that really annoys me is when people insist that I am "Chinese" and should learn the language and give back to the "motherland." (No joke, this happens every few months, sometimes after I decline to refer their resumes.) And I feel even more annoyed when people ask me when I don't join them anymore after they spent entire dinners talking in Korean/Chinese (languages I don't understand) about topics I know literally nothing about.

I hate it even more when the same people turn around and accuse me of being "AHA" just trying to assimilate into mainstream culture without any knowledge of what I do in my spare time (which includes a lot of volunteering in the Chinese immigrant community and mentoring+interview coaching for anyone that asks). No, I just don't want to hang out with you because you are literally talking about things I have zero interest in and in a language I don't understand.

A personal story of mine that really stuck with me is during one Thanksgiving in law school, I invited friends that didn't go home to Thanksgiving dinner. It was a pretty even split between Chinese speaking exchange students and American students who only spoke English. (5/5? 6/5? something like it). It was the most awkward Thanksgiving dinner I ever hosted because the Chinese speaking students gathered on one end of the table and spoke Chinese all the time except one who made conscious effort to include the English speakers into the conversation. This is just self-sabotage throwing away one of the best opportunities to really network on a personal level. Some of the very same people would post in WeChat moments about going to networking events for that longshot connection at an offer.

Much longer rant than I intended but there is literally no other forum for me to air a lot of these thoughts and that whole "AHA" thing just triggered me.

Mid-level associate here. A bit shocked people would go so far as to try and get you to try and "give back to the motherland" and help them out by passing along their resumes. But otherwise, your comments resonate with me - when behavior like that (from your Thanksgiving dinner) frustrates me, I remind myself that people are just being humans and often fail to see the hypocrisy of their own actions. As someone who spent a number of years living in Asia during grade school, I will say I don't completely blame the Chinese speaking exchange students for not understanding how networking works. It hardly exists as a concept over there. In the legal industry here in the U.S., however, everything is treated like a networking opportunity (which disgusts many non-lawyers who hear about this).

While I don't condone their behavior, on an opposite end of the spectrum are associates like me who are completely and utterly isolated at work because I am the only minority attorney in my satellite office. I've tried talking to other attorneys, but I mostly feel shut out, both socially and from the best professional opportunities. I feel like I stick out like a sore thumb by being both Asian and female in a white male-dominated field. I wish we could have just any minorities here, even if it's the type who just wants to talk amongst themselves (which I, too, dislike). As someone who never cared much about diversity in school, I'm beginning to experience on a personal level how truly important it is.

[Anonymous User]

I agree people are just being humans but at some point, people have to look at their own actions and take some responsibility for them. It's just rude to not even make attempts at including other people in the conversation when you're sitting at the same dinner table.

It is really tough but you have to be assertive and I have to admit I had to "assimilate" in some tangible ways like picking up fantasy football when I really don't care about football at all (rooting for the laundry seems dumb to me).

I absolutely agree we need more Asian Americans among the senior and leadership ranks. Just because we (this applies to other minorities too) look different, any difference will confirm suspicions that we are "different" even when we have substantially the same aspirations and working capabilities as all of our white male colleagues. This is where the "pressure to be whiter than white colleagues" I alluded to in an earlier post comes from. It sucks. It's unfair. But I am glad there at least isn't (for the most part on the coasts) overt racism like there used to be for my parents and grandparents, and if you can get over the stereotypes and speak up, you will get the opportunities. Having even one coworker with similar struggles will make it so much easier to speak up.

[Anonymous User]

While I don't condone their behavior, on an opposite end of the spectrum are associates like me who are completely and utterly isolated at work because I am the only minority attorney in my satellite office. I've tried talking to other attorneys, but I mostly feel shut out, both socially and from the best professional opportunities. I feel like I stick out like a sore thumb by being both Asian and female in a white male-dominated field. I wish we could have just any minorities here, even if it's the type who just wants to talk amongst themselves (which I, too, dislike). As someone who never cared much about diversity in school, I'm beginning to experience on a personal level how truly important it is.

Are all of the other attorneys in your office white men? If so, I can see how that would feel isolating. Are there any other female lawyers in your office? If so, maybe try reaching out to them. Even if they're not racial minorities, you'll still be partially in the same boat as women in a mostly-male office. I think to some extent, the old boy network is almost more about being male than being white.

It is really tough but you have to be assertive and I have to admit I had to "assimilate" in some tangible ways like picking up fantasy football when I really don't care about football at all (rooting for the laundry seems dumb to me).

I absolutely agree we need more Asian Americans among the senior and leadership ranks. Just because we (this applies to other minorities too) look different, any difference will confirm suspicions that we are "different" even when we have substantially the same aspirations and working capabilities as all of our white male colleagues. This is where the "pressure to be whiter than white colleagues" I alluded to in an earlier post comes from.

I don't think it's right to expect minorities to adjust their hobbies and personalities to be "whiter than white," as you put it. The football-and-beer network not only disproportionately impacts minorities, it also disproportionately impacts women. And it disadvantages even white men who aren't stereotypical sports-and-beer fanatics.

I think the focus needs to be on getting firms and companies to hold more inclusive social events. My firm, last year, held one of those sports-and-beer events where every lawyer who came - bar one - was a white man, and every staff member who came was a woman. The one female associate who came was repeatedly mistaken for a staff member - because obviously only the men were lawyers. The dynamic was horrible and as a direct result, we won't be doing that kind of event again in future. It's on firms and companies to recognize these issues - I don't agree with putting the onus on women and minorities to be more of a white man than the average white man.

[Anonymous User]

I think the focus needs to be on getting firms and companies to hold more inclusive social events. My firm, last year, held one of those sports-and-beer events where every lawyer who came - bar one - was a white man, and every staff member who came was a woman. The one female associate who came was repeatedly mistaken for a staff member - because obviously only the men were lawyers. The dynamic was horrible and as a direct result, we won't be doing that kind of event again in future. It's on firms and companies to recognize these issues - I don't agree with putting the onus on women and minorities to be more of a white man than the average white man.

I agree it is unfair but at the same time, I think minorities also need to reach out on a daily basis. Cultural exchange goes both ways.

That said, firms absolutely suck at reaching out to cultural mintorities and need to do more. As minority associates, we need to do more to help firms do better too. You can't expect a bunch of white males that grew up in all white neighborhoods to know how to reach out to minorities. It's incumbent upon the minorities to come up with concrete ideas for upper management to implement. Something I did that was very successful when I was an intern in college at a bulge bracket investment bank was just asking the MDs to hold what amounts to a free dinner at a nice Chinese restaurant, instead of the typical steakhouse/Aureole/Wolfgang/Capital Grille/hotel restaurant fare, that presented dishes well, has some dishes that suited American palates, and doesn't have that typical greasy/cheap feeling that you'd associate with older Chinese restaurants. It makes the experience much more enjoyable and less awkward for everyone involved. This, in turn, makes it much more likely for the interns/associates to organize similar outings on their own. (Honestly I just objected to the restaurant originally proposed because I literally ate there the day before and wanted to go somewhere else but it worked out really well.)

I agree fantasy football is a "sports-and-beer" thing that's pretty bad (fantasy football was always a substitute for me since I don't drink) and in recent years I've latched onto the "foodie" trend that seems to cross cultural/gender divides. It's just a coping mechanism that was easier for me.

[Aptitude]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

The resentment and humiliation are real, and I'm happy to see it voiced here and to know that I'm not alone.

With respect to the URM struggles described earlier ITT: lol do you all work at Skadden?

It's actually extremely telling that a non-Asian moderator felt he had the right to tell Asians what was appropriate between Asians, then threaten to "expose" or "ban" them for it if they didn't agree. Deja vu much? https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/28/health/d ... index.html

She said the faculty members asked to see photographs of the students in the program so that they could "remember them if the students ever interviewed for an internship or asked to work with them for a master's project."

Also telling is the tone of his post - as if he inherently knew more about Asian American culture than actual Asian Americans, and he is by default the expert on what Asians are allowed to say to one another. Or as if he had some sort of god given authority or right over them, suddenly he's an expert over everything Asian culture. Just by default, he knows more about Asians and how Asians are allowed to talk and say.

The most hilarious part was when he white knighted for Asian women - colonization much? He might as well storm into Vietnam, start building a base in South Korea, and producing Yellow Peril propaganda. He actually provided the perfect example of the problems Asian Americans face culturally in the U.S. I was actually waiting to see if any Asian here would say anything. And just like at a law firm or corporate America - the Asians stay silent again in the face of disrespect.

Re: "AHA" and what not.

On a personal level. I didn't grow up around the Asian subculture. I am 3rd/4th (depending on which side you count from) gen Asian American that grew up in a Jewish town. I went to an almost entirely white boarding school.

1:03 mark, you're doing what she's doing and it's a joke: https://tv.sohu.com/v/dXMvNjMzMDM2MjEvM ... 0bWw=.html

I don't know the k-pop, c-pop, and whatever Asian models the many Asian cliques talk about nor am I really interested in going to Asian clubs like "Mission."

You're perpetuating Asian stereotypes. Asian culture can encompass many things, it can be anything from K-Pop, to Asian clubs, to a culture where over 2000 different languages are spoken.

It can include anything from the most fuel efficient or fastest vehicles in the world, to the most efficient CPUs, number theory and advanced applied mathematics used in scientific research. It can involve some of the world's most famous fashion designers, from streetwear to the runway. Asian culture has produced some of the most technologically advanced, profitable, and successful companies on the globe.

It can mean the 8 different cuisine types in China, to Northern Vietnamese Cuisine, to Vietnamese American crawfish, to Japanese curry, to sashimi, to bibimbap and soju.

4000+ years of history. You're just not into all that. Somehow you have it down to a club in Mission and K-Pop models

And I very actively dislike the idea that I'd be called "AHA" if some random Asian guy walked up to me and I declined to initiate conversation. I guess what I am trying to say is although I try to help people, Asians in particular because I do have a unique perspective on a lot of the issues we face, I do not like being told I am an "AHA" because I don't feel obligated to help every Asian I meet.

That's not their point at all. Their point is that among Asians, there's a large segment willing to sell other Asians out or feel they're better than other Asians, or have this weird sense of shame about being Asian. Or the feeling that if they kiss enough non-Asian ass at their job, this will somehow help them.

I also don't like it when people look disappointed when I know nothing about anime, K-pop, or whatever Asian model.

Wow once wasn't enough, you have to perpetuate narrow Asian stereotypes twice.

Another thing that really annoys me is when people insist that I am "Chinese" and should learn the language and give back to the "motherland."

7:00 mark: https://youtu.be/uiOHDkBomYw?t=420

And I feel even more annoyed when people ask me when I don't join them anymore after they spent entire dinners talking in Korean/Chinese (languages I don't understand) about topics I know literally nothing about.

So learn? You got into a top law school right?

Much longer rant than I intended but there is literally no other forum for me to air a lot of these thoughts and that whole "AHA" thing just triggered me.

Maybe some self-reflection is in order

[Anonymous User]

Firm is so dedicated to diversity literally every single person who made partner last year was a straight white male

[lavarman84]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

The resentment and humiliation are real, and I'm happy to see it voiced here and to know that I'm not alone.

With respect to the URM struggles described earlier ITT: lol do you all work at Skadden?

It's actually extremely telling that a non-Asian moderator felt he had the right to tell Asians what was appropriate between Asians, then threaten to "expose" or "ban" them for it if they didn't agree.

No, he felt that he had a right to tell posters on this forum what is appropriate on this forum. Do you know why he has that right? Because he's a moderator.

Also, are you arguing that non-Asians have no right to an opinion about what is appropriate between Asians? Do you think Asian people have a right to tell white people what is appropriate between whites? Well, I certainly think they do.

[Aptitude]

No, he felt that he had a right to tell posters on this forum what is appropriate on this forum. Do you know why he has that right? Because he's a moderator.

You should go work at Duke, I hear they're looking for a new Director

And Asians wonder why stuff like the Duke incident keeps happening. Because there are [redacted] like this actually out there in the world

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I agree that “ChangChang” was out of line. But

I am asking that no one (including self-identified Asians) refer to Asians as..or "Asian that Hates Asians," or attack "Asian women [as being] some of the biggest [Asians that Hate Asians] out there" (or anything along those lines). Most egregiously, one post even referred to Asian associates as "pet".

really misses the mark. These are real issues that we face and simply saying you’re not allowed to talk about these things is, IMO, unacceptable and incredibly condescending. It’s one thing to *accuse* other posters here of being those things. But to say that, full stop, you can’t refer to Asians as those things (even when legitimately discussing those issues) is egregious.

[lavarman84]

No, he felt that he had a right to tell posters on this forum what is appropriate on this forum. Do you know why he has that right? Because he's a moderator.

You should go work at Duke. You, QContinuum,and Megan Neely would probably get along.

[Ad hominem attack redacted.] I don't care what race you are.

[QContinuum]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

The resentment and humiliation are real, and I'm happy to see it voiced here and to know that I'm not alone.

With respect to the URM struggles described earlier ITT: lol do you all work at Skadden?

It's actually extremely telling that a non-Asian moderator felt he had the right to tell Asians what was appropriate between Asians, then threaten to "expose" or "ban" them for it if they didn't agree.

No, he felt that he had a right to tell posters on this forum what is appropriate on this forum. Do you know why he has that right? Because he's a moderator.

Also, are you arguing that non-Asians have no right to an opinion about what is appropriate between Asians? Do you think Asian people have a right to tell white people what is appropriate between whites? Well, I certainly think they do.

Thanks, lavarman. I've given Aptitude a 3-day vacation from the boards for posting racist and sexist content (against Asian women) ITT after my previous warning, as well as his (I assume he's male) rather over-the-top personal attacks against other TLSers, including you and me. Considered just issuing a warning but it seemed clear it wouldn't be effective.

To other board members: Further discussion on these complex issues is welcome, but please review my post earlier ITT (I think it's on page 3 now) and refrain from posting racist/sexist content (including, but not limited to, derogatory slurs), even if you yourself are a racial minority or a woman.

I agree that “ChangChang” was out of line. But

I am asking that no one (including self-identified Asians) refer to Asians as ... "Asian that Hates Asians," or attack "Asian women [as being] some of the biggest [Asians that Hate Asians] out there" (or anything along those lines). Most egregiously, one post even referred to Asian associates as "pet".

really misses the mark. These are real issues that we face and simply saying you’re not allowed to talk about these things is, IMO, unacceptable and incredibly condescending. It’s one thing to *accuse* other posters here of being those things. But to say that, full stop, you can’t refer to Asians as those things (even when legitimately discussing those issues) is egregious.

Your feedback and disagreement are respectfully noted and considered.

TLSers ITT are certainly welcome to have a civilized discussion about whether or how minority BigLawyers, including Asians and Asian-Americans, should support each other and work to improve BigLaw culture and diversity. Part of that discussion might involve whether and to what extent minority BigLawyers should try to appear stereotypically "white." It's entirely possible to have that discussion without branding Asians as "Asians that Hate Asians" or "pets," or trying to pit Asian men against Asian women.

So, to be clear, we're not going to tolerate Stormfront-esque "race traitor" discussions, and we most certainly aren't going to tolerate human beings being referred to as "pets." My previous post ITT stands.

[Anonymous User]

I am the anon Aptitude quoted extensively.

I categorically reject the idea Asians cannot be fully American, whether that idea is coming from an offensive comedian or from other Asians ready and willing to label people AHA or, as I had personal experience with, “Han Jian” which literally translates as traitor of Han race. The idea is fundamentally racist and offensive. I can’t help you if you can’t accept the fact I consider myself an American and feel no obligation to give back to the motherland or promote the Han race.

What I do feel is the desire to help people that are going through the same struggles I am but as Aptitude’s posts show, that doesn’t seem to be enough for some people. You know something, I am human too and I am less inclined to help people who feel entitled to my help and will attack me when I don’t.

I do believe Asians are not just about Kpop/Asian models or stereotypes but fact is that is what a lot of Asian cliques talk about most of the time. You’re lying or a Asian studies/history major if you are telling me you talk about ancient Asian cultures and history most of the time. We ask our white male colleagues to be inclusive in social outings and work events, why shouldn’t we do the same?

Aptitude’s post just oozes the sense of entitlement that I really hate, regardless of where it’s coming from.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I do believe Asians are not just about Kpop/Asian models or stereotypes but fact is that is what a lot of Asian cliques talk about most of the time.

I don’t think that’s a fact at all and it’s kind of an odd thing to say and fixate on. I grew up in a majority Asian-American community and have generally been around large amounts of Asian-Americans my entire life and I cannot for the life of me recall talking about Kpop or Asian models. Obviously, that’s just my experience, but it also falls into a weird pit of lumping in all Asians together. The Vietnamese-American dude is highly unlikely to talk about Kpop with his Taiwanese-American friend.

[Anonymous User]

I do believe Asians are not just about Kpop/Asian models or stereotypes but fact is that is what a lot of Asian cliques talk about most of the time.

I don’t think that’s a fact at all and it’s kind of an odd thing to say and fixate on. I grew up in a majority Asian-American community and have generally been around large amounts of Asian-Americans my entire life and I cannot for the life of me recall talking about Kpop or Asian models. Obviously, that’s just my experience, but it also falls into a weird pit of lumping in all Asians together. The Vietnamese-American dude is highly unlikely to talk about Kpop with his Taiwanese-American friend.

Fair enough. Just broadly topics I have no interest in or just no experience with. I am sorry I defaulted to some stereotypes and admit there is almost certainly some confirmation bias. I hope the main point that cultural exchange and inclusion goes both ways still stands.

[nixy]

Re: what you call cultural exchange and inclusion going both ways - the thing about putting it this way is that Asian Americans and whites are situated fundamentally differently. White culture is the default/majority culture and it doesn’t really need to be supported/included in the way this seems to suggest.

That’s not at all meant to suggest that Asian Americans aren’t “fully American” or to justify some of the ways you’ve been treated. But what is “fully American” and why can’t it involve interest in the things you’re not interested in? I didn’t read Aptitude as entitled so much defensive/trying to protect Asians. (Again, that’s not meant to diminish individual experiences you’ve had and I don’t mean to call you a race traitor or think that’s fair.)

[Anonymous User]

On a large top down systemic view it is unfair we have to do more. I have no disagreement on this point. And I also agree firms need to do more to identify and address cultural biases preventing Asian associates from rising leadership ranks.

But on a personal level, why do I have to help every Asian I come across? Why should I go out of my way to learn a language just to try to fit into a group I have very little connection to? How are our white male colleagues supposed to help if we aren’t proactive and being inclusive so we can find common ground faster? How are firms supposed to reach out if we don’t tell them what our problems are and how to address them?

Don’t fall for the victim narrative and become defensive/passive. It’s counterproductive.

Aptitude’s last post’s videos are basically: offensive comedian making fun of a second gen Taiwanese American for declining to say she is Taiwanese and then another video that literally says no, you’re not American, what are you really.

He’s literally rejecting the way I, and people like me that have grown up with basically zero contact with the Asian subculture and still feel no connection to the Asian subculture, view ourselves. It is offensive to me that he’d cite racist BS and tell me I can’t be American and should just accept my lineage and call myself Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese (I have all of the above and some French via the Vietnamese line).

Identity is a complicated thing and something I struggle with for obvious reasons but if you call me an AHA and insist that I should call myself and act like something I feel no connection to, I am going to be offended and tell you to fuck off. I will tell you to fuck off too if you walk up to me like you’re entitled to my attention and help because we’re both Asian.

It’s really that simple.

[nixy]

I get a lot of that, and I absolutely don’t mean to criticize you for having to deal with expectations of how you’ll treat Asians based on your race. Totally not criticizing you on a personal level for how you negotiate that - not my place at all. I think it goes a little too far to defend white male colleagues for not helping if Asians don’t reach out though - they (the white male colleagues) should be the ones reaching out because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t think anyone should have to find some kind of (white) cultural common ground to be treated as a full member of a profession and given the same opportunities as anyone else.

Again, totally not cricitizing you (if it was you - mixing up the anons) for doing something like taking up fantasy football to have something to talk to the white male partners about - that totally makes sense given the world we do live in. But no one should *have* to do something like that to succeed in a law firm. I also don’t know if it needs to be on individual Asians to reach out about problems when things like Asian representation in law firm partners is pretty clear without Asians saying anything.

[Anonymous User]

I never said you have to do fantasy football. I said I felt the pressure to act whiter than white at times. It doesn't mean I think people should have to act "white." As an aside, some of my white male classmates also picked up fantasy football to fit in so it's hard for me to really think of that as a purely "Asian tax" sort to speak.

That said, I totally object to not even trying to include people in your conversations when you're at the same table. It's just rude. I also totally object to the ideas that I am obligated to help every Asian I come across and I should identify as Chinese or whatever the case may be.

I think it is absolutely crucial for Asians to speak up and try to be inclusive. Let's say I accept the onus is 100% on white male colleagues and the firms to be inclusive, I still could make the argument my Asian colleagues, out of self-interest if nothing else, should speak up and help the firms help Asians. I could just as easily frame it as they should respond when white male colleagues reach out. My Thanksgiving dinner story is just one of those episodes where an opportunity is just missed. I am sure many of you have been to networking events where Asian students just huddled up in a corner speaking amongst themselves, often in a language that professors don't understand. In some sense, I am not even saying Asians should do more than white colleagues. I am saying a lot of Asians are actively doing less without realizing it.

[nixy]

A lot of that is fair. Again, not commenting at all on whether you should be expected to help every Asian based on being Asian. And fantasy football was just an example. I find it sort of weird to talk about a Thanksgiving dinner among students as a networking opportunity that they failed to pursue, though. I get that it may have been socially difficult/awkward but it doesn’t seem to go to how people should be treated as associates.

[Anonymous User]

I never said you have to do fantasy football. I said I felt the pressure to act whiter than white at times. It doesn't mean I think people should have to act "white." As an aside, some of my white male classmates also picked up fantasy football to fit in so it's hard for me to really think of that as a purely "Asian tax" sort to speak.

That said, I totally object to not even trying to include people in your conversations when you're at the same table. It's just rude. I also totally object to the ideas that I am obligated to help every Asian I come across and I should identify as Chinese or whatever the case may be.

I think it is absolutely crucial for Asians to speak up and try to be inclusive. Let's say I accept the onus is 100% on white male colleagues and the firms to be inclusive, I still could make the argument my Asian colleagues, out of self-interest if nothing else, should speak up and help the firms help Asians. I could just as easily frame it as they should respond when white male colleagues reach out. My Thanksgiving dinner story is just one of those episodes where an opportunity is just missed. I am sure many of you have been to networking events where Asian students just huddled up in a corner speaking amongst themselves, often in a language that professors don't understand. In some sense, I am not even saying Asians should do more than white colleagues. I am saying a lot of Asians are actively doing less without realizing it.

I half agree with you on self identification. Yes you shouldn’t be forced to be identified as Chinese or Chinese American. But you are wrong to not identify yourself as an Asian American or Asian. Same thing as for other minority colleagues who are black or women. Doing otherwise is just being willfully blind that your skin color has no impact on how the old boys club stereotype you.

I agree, however, that foreign Asian students shouldn’t isolate themselves. Truth is, they don’t know about the diversity issues in America. They’re brought up to largely either “worship” the West or view the west as the enemy. They just can’t see themselves as being part of the club. When a white male join in their conversation, it’s laterally like encounter with the third kind and the atmosphere just changes. Having said that, not all foreign Asian students are like that and some are genuinely wanting to fit in with “American” culture and want to ebe accepted in “American” culture.

One personal story, I remember going on business trip to China and meeting with my Chinese foreign national counterparts (this is a government trip). They literally, in my face, said I was a Han jian, a traitor to the Chinese. I gave them a fuck you stone expression and proudly flew my American flag and said I was an American of Chinese descent.