It’s the little things....... Forum

[okaygo]

I'm a 2L who is a 5'2" gay woman of color scheduled to go to a V5 this summer. This thread makes me think I should just quit after finishing my SA.

Don’t be, unless you plan to never have a job at all. Do I get confused with other black associates sometimes? Yes. Do people assume I’m a secretary or in marketing sometimes? Yep. Do I feel like I’m not in the in-group of some circles because I’m not an overprivileged white dude? Sure. Do I feel like people don’t give me opportunities becaus I’m a woman? Not really but it’s in the back of my mind all the time.

Frankly, all of the issues people are complaining about are par for the course for minorities in corporate America or medicines or any higher earning field. Really any field. I can think of worse jobs to endure microaggressions in than the one paying me 200k to push papers around and answer emails.

TLDR: racism sucks but what job won’t have any?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 2L who is a 5'2" gay woman of color scheduled to go to a V5 this summer. This thread makes me think I should just quit after finishing my SA.

Seriously don’t let this thread color your experience or fill you with dread. Internet message boards are, by their nature, absolutely not representative of the larger population or your specific firm (e.g., DPW NY will be different that DLA Piper Arkansas).

If you have concerns, talk to a POC or LGBT person at your firm or somewhere else who you think you can trust and ask for their experience and get their advice. Real life interactions are much more productive.

[Anonymous User]

Echo a lot of others on their experiences as a minority lawyer. Another classic example is the asian attorneys get assigned to all the tech prep parts of work whether it be setting up video depos or doing presentation preparation for trial but they bring you along just to do the tech shit. I've also seen where they bring different minorities for different meetings just to use them for their language skills or to show off their "diversity"

Ho*y $hit I’m not the only one who noticed this. I keep wanting to say something to my white coworkers. I’ve hinted it before but they never catch on (or maybe they’re too uncomfortable to). Things I’ve experienced:

- Getting dragged into meetings with foreign attorneys from Asia I don’t know
- Being encouraged to speak “your language” at meeting with foreign attorneys from Asia (...uhm, my first language is English)
- Doing substantial work on expert discovery but not being taken to trial, instead white jr associates take my place at trial

When I tell family and friends they’re usually left in disbelief. They can’t believe lawyers can be so unfair. Ha.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I can't dispute any of what has been said here. I am a straight, white male from "a good family," and it has definitely benefited me. I think a lot of people in my shoes take umbrage at the idea that we have an advantage because they believe they've earned it. To a degree, many of them have earned success. However, what they fail to recognize is that they started on second base. Yes, they put in the effort to be successful, but others have worked just as hard or harder and not attained the same success because they weren't given the same opportunities.

I try not to lose sight of that fact. While I am grateful for the advantages I have, my goal is to level the playing field whenever I have the ability to do so.

There is one thing I have to say. When I hear people comparing their "credentials" to their coworkers' "credentials," it comes off as snobbish to me. Then again, the legal profession can be pretty snobbish.

I think people comparing their credentials to those of their coworkers in this thread has to do with the fact that, at many firms, minority/female attorney Joe/Jane is always a Magna Cum Laude graduate of T6 while many a time straight white male John is a median graduate of local state school. It’s infuriating that that white associate, even with those credentials, is always favored.

There are PLENTY of white male associates that have amazing credentials, but, there are a visible amount of average Joe white male associates that are headscratchers.

Some people on here might just be trying to toot their own horn wrt their credentials, but the others are just pointing out the fact that junior associates with nothing more than their credentials are already treated as an under-class compared to their lesser credentialed white male associates from day 1.

Thank you. I came from a middle class minority family (Asian) and I busted my ass to get into a T14 for the job prospects, only to get into biglaw and realize outside of getting my foot in the door none of it mattered. So you know how much a difference it makes, my firm routinely staffs white colleagues from tier 2, tier 3 schools on big litigations over me - yeah ok maybe they’re smart but I don’t see it. You can blame me for being a snob and “unlikeable” but I think it really is a race/cultural thing - these white associates remind the partner she of themselves 20 years ago so they feel an affinity to them.

I once sat through a dinner table where a partner disparaged the Asians in the Harvard affirmative action suit, saying “grades and test scores are not what employers consider valuable.” I was the only minority at the table, and it made me really uncomfortable.

[Anonymous User]

I'm Asian going to a bro-ish firm in a bro-inh market so seeing this makes me feel pretty bleh, but I'm seeing that a lot of these examples are happening litigation? Does any know if corporate may be different? Or have stories about corporate?

[Anonymous User]

Not to compare this with being URM/non-heteronormative, but it's also very taxing to be a person with a history of mental health problems in biglaw, in part because it's something you have to keep entirely to yourself. It's a sort of hidden diversity.

[lavarman84]

Thank you. I came from a middle class minority family (Asian) and I busted my ass to get into a T14 for the job prospects, only to get into biglaw and realize outside of getting my foot in the door none of it mattered. So you know how much a difference it makes, my firm routinely staffs white colleagues from tier 2, tier 3 schools on big litigations over me - yeah ok maybe they’re smart but I don’t see it. You can blame me for being a snob and “unlikeable” but I think it really is a race/cultural thing - these white associates remind the partner she of themselves 20 years ago so they feel an affinity to them.

I once sat through a dinner table where a partner disparaged the Asians in the Harvard affirmative action suit, saying “grades and test scores are not what employers consider valuable.” I was the only minority at the table, and it made me really uncomfortable.

It very well could be race, culture, etc. I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am saying is that I wouldn't look down upon your fellow lawyers because you think they went to inferior law schools and had inferior grades. Those things just don't mean that much once you're practicing. If they're bad (or mediocre) at their jobs, feel free to look down upon them for that. But thinking you're better than them and deserve more than them because of your credentials won't get you anywhere. They could very well end up being better lawyers despite all that. Now, they're also going to get benefits and opportunities you won't due to biases that pervade workplaces. And that's not fair. So I empathize with your frustration.

I think people comparing their credentials to those of their coworkers in this thread has to do with the fact that, at many firms, minority/female attorney Joe/Jane is always a Magna Cum Laude graduate of T6 while many a time straight white male John is a median graduate of local state school. It’s infuriating that that white associate, even with those credentials, is always favored.

There are PLENTY of white male associates that have amazing credentials, but, there are a visible amount of average Joe white male associates that are headscratchers.

Some people on here might just be trying to toot their own horn wrt their credentials, but the others are just pointing out the fact that junior associates with nothing more than their credentials are already treated as an under-class compared to their lesser credentialed white male associates from day 1.

And that's fair. As I said, many biases (including racial, class, gender, etc.) all play a role in that. John is advantaged by all of that. However, my point about snobbishness is being a top graduate from a top law school doesn't make you a better lawyer. John might have only gotten the job because of his rich parents. But John might surprise you and end up being a damn good lawyer. Of course, John might also be a mediocre bum who only retains his status because of biases and his connections.

Still, credentials aren't everything. Many of the best lawyers I know went to unimpressive law schools and didn't graduate with elite grades.

[Anonymous User]

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

This.

I'm a URM, former clerk (very competitive district and circuit clerkship), an associate at a top litigation boutique (Kellogg, Susman, Quinn, etc), and am considered attractive according to conventional standards (the idea that attractiveness negates centuries of oppression is simple-minded at best). I have experienced almost all of the above. Blake who was hired after me has had no trouble and he’s not conventionally attractive.

[cavalier1138]

Can I just say that I'm very excited people accepted my proposition that Blake's counterpart was Brenda?

I was wavering between that and Karen, but I just love alliteration.

[BrainsyK]

Can I just say that I'm very excited people accepted my proposition that Blake's counterpart was Brenda?

I was wavering between that and Karen, but I just love alliteration.

I enjoy the alliteration too, but no one the history of forever has ever been named Brenda.

[Anonymous User]

Not to compare this with being URM/non-heteronormative, but it's also very taxing to be a person with a history of mental health problems in biglaw, in part because it's something you have to keep entirely to yourself. It's a sort of hidden diversity.

I'm always surprised substance abuse history and recovery don't get more attention in the day-to-day environment of the legal community. That's another defining feature that differentiates attorneys in an office surprisingly often, yet you rarely hear of many accommodations (even minimal) for people in recovery. You would think people would make more affirmative efforts given the increased awareness of the problem in the profession.

[Anonymous User]

Minority male. We have a similar problem; some partners will even favor junior wasps over minority anyone. Four of us are stuck taking orders from a wasp partner and his first year associate. There were five, but one lateraled last month.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you. I came from a middle class minority family (Asian) and I busted my ass to get into a T14 for the job prospects, only to get into biglaw and realize outside of getting my foot in the door none of it mattered. So you know how much a difference it makes, my firm routinely staffs white colleagues from tier 2, tier 3 schools on big litigations over me - yeah ok maybe they’re smart but I don’t see it. You can blame me for being a snob and “unlikeable” but I think it really is a race/cultural thing - these white associates remind the partner she of themselves 20 years ago so they feel an affinity to them.

I once sat through a dinner table where a partner disparaged the Asians in the Harvard affirmative action suit, saying “grades and test scores are not what employers consider valuable.” I was the only minority at the table, and it made me really uncomfortable.

It very well could be race, culture, etc. I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am saying is that I wouldn't look down upon your fellow lawyers because you think they went to inferior law schools and had inferior grades. Those things just don't mean that much once you're practicing. If they're bad (or mediocre) at their jobs, feel free to look down upon them for that. But thinking you're better than them and deserve more than them because of your credentials won't get you anywhere. They could very well end up being better lawyers despite all that. Now, they're also going to get benefits and opportunities you won't due to biases that pervade workplaces. And that's not fair. So I empathize with your frustration.

I think people comparing their credentials to those of their coworkers in this thread has to do with the fact that, at many firms, minority/female attorney Joe/Jane is always a Magna Cum Laude graduate of T6 while many a time straight white male John is a median graduate of local state school. It’s infuriating that that white associate, even with those credentials, is always favored.

There are PLENTY of white male associates that have amazing credentials, but, there are a visible amount of average Joe white male associates that are headscratchers.

Some people on here might just be trying to toot their own horn wrt their credentials, but the others are just pointing out the fact that junior associates with nothing more than their credentials are already treated as an under-class compared to their lesser credentialed white male associates from day 1.

And that's fair. As I said, many biases (including racial, class, gender, etc.) all play a role in that. John is advantaged by all of that. However, my point about snobbishness is being a top graduate from a top law school doesn't make you a better lawyer. John might have only gotten the job because of his rich parents. But John might surprise you and end up being a damn good lawyer. Of course, John might also be a mediocre bum who only retains his status because of biases and his connections.

Still, credentials aren't everything. Many of the best lawyers I know went to unimpressive law schools and didn't graduate with elite grades.

I don't think I'm better than them. I think certain minorities would never get a shot at biglaw without fantastic credentials, while white associates will be considered with much worse credentials but a "good personality" or a lawyer-like demeanor. I see it year after year in the first year cohorts: the Asians who are T14 magna cum laude or T20 law review order of the coif types and white associates who graduate from tier 3 schools, sometimes without law review or honors. Of course, excellent white associates are hired as well, but I've never come across an Asian associate at a lower tiered school. I think they are just not considered, period.

And then when it comes to staffing, grades no longer matter how well you work on a deal or litigation team, right? So Asians routinely get crap opportunities (e.g. prepping expert in backroom, writing expert reports but not being taken to trial, etc.) and/or they're relegated to back room roles. This has been discussed in the thread as well.

You may see great attorneys who graduated from low ranked law schools, which is quite common. I never said it's impossible. My point is rather that if you're an Asian attorney coming from a lower ranked law school, you'd probably never even get the chance to be a successful biglaw partner.

Limiting my response to Asian attorneys because I think other racial minorities face some different challenges in law, and biglaw esp.

[Anonymous User]

Minority male. We have a similar problem; some partners will even favor junior wasps over minority anyone. Four of us are stuck taking orders from a wasp partner and his first year associate. There were five, but one lateraled last month.

Haha, this happens at my firm, too.............. we had a first year attend a Markman Hearing in federal court, while the mid-level black associate on the litigation stayed behind. The black associate has a fantastic rep, so I doubt bad work product is why they got excluded.

[Anonymous User]

.

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

This.

I'm a URM, former clerk (very competitive district and circuit clerkship), an associate at a top litigation boutique (Kellogg, Susman, Quinn, etc), and am considered attractive according to conventional standards (the idea that attractiveness negates centuries of oppression is simple-minded at best). I have experienced almost all of the above. Blake who was hired after me has had no trouble and he’s not conventionally attractive.

I meant to respond to you earlier but didn’t have the opportunity til now.

I really am sorry for everything you are going through. in the first draft of your post (before the edits) you seemed to almost blame the younger “Blakes” and “Brendas” as much as the partners and ppl in power who perpetuate the issues you are experiencing. Others seem to echo that, or at least resent Blake or Brenda.

As a white male, who is more of a Beta Tom than an Alpha Blake, I sincerely would like to know how I can help make things better. To be honest, when I get work I am not thinking of anyone else (white or POC). I am just trying to get through this hell job as best I can. I come from a poor family - dumb as hell backwoods white trash - so I feel like I struggle to fit in and am relieved whenever a senior or partner treats me with a bare minimum of respect. I recognize that being white is an advantage, and it’s not fair. But also, I am just a person like you, who also gets treated like shit at my job, is tired, overworked, and barely has time to eat food sometimes. I’m not actively trying to oppress anyone, I’m just trying to get by.

I honestly don’t know what I can do to help with your situation when I have no power or say at my firm, other than try my best to be nice and respectful to everyone regardless of color, gender, etc. but I’d like to help, and for you not to resent me. any advice would be appreciated.

[Anonymous User]

I once sat through a dinner table where a partner disparaged the Asians in the Harvard affirmative action suit, saying “grades and test scores are not what employers consider valuable.” I was the only minority at the table, and it made me really uncomfortable.

And then when it comes to staffing, grades no longer matter how well you work on a deal or litigation team, right? So Asians routinely get crap opportunities (e.g. prepping expert in backroom, writing expert reports but not being taken to trial, etc.) and/or they're relegated to back room roles. This has been discussed in the thread as well.

You may see great attorneys who graduated from low ranked law schools, which is quite common. I never said it's impossible. My point is rather that if you're an Asian attorney coming from a lower ranked law school, you'd probably never even get the chance to be a successful biglaw partner.

Limiting my response to Asian attorneys because I think other racial minorities face some different challenges in law, and biglaw esp.

Echo a lot of others on their experiences as a minority lawyer. Another classic example is the asian attorneys get assigned to all the tech prep parts of work whether it be setting up video depos or doing presentation preparation for trial but they bring you along just to do the tech shit. I've also seen where they bring different minorities for different meetings just to use them for their language skills or to show off their "diversity"

Ho*y $hit I’m not the only one who noticed this. I keep wanting to say something to my white coworkers. I’ve hinted it before but they never catch on (or maybe they’re too uncomfortable to). Things I’ve experienced:

- Getting dragged into meetings with foreign attorneys from Asia I don’t know
- Being encouraged to speak “your language” at meeting with foreign attorneys from Asia (...uhm, my first language is English)
- Doing substantial work on expert discovery but not being taken to trial, instead white jr associates take my place at trial

When I tell family and friends they’re usually left in disbelief. They can’t believe lawyers can be so unfair. Ha.

I'm Asian, and you should have said something. People always feel free to crap on Asians because they never say anything. It's all "grades and test scores are valuable, you must have good grades and test scores", unless the person is Asian, then it doesn't matter as much

Also, I feel like discrimination largely happens towards Asian men, not Asian women. Asian men will always be treated like garbage by everyone else, and will always be forgotten politically as long as we just sit there and take it. You should listen to the 40:49 mark of this podcast. You're basically their pet, your T6 degree means nothing if you have no dignity. : https://youtu.be/1BqBbKt0haM?t=2449

[Anonymous User]

.

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

This.

I'm a URM, former clerk (very competitive district and circuit clerkship), an associate at a top litigation boutique (Kellogg, Susman, Quinn, etc), and am considered attractive according to conventional standards (the idea that attractiveness negates centuries of oppression is simple-minded at best). I have experienced almost all of the above. Blake who was hired after me has had no trouble and he’s not conventionally attractive.

I meant to respond to you earlier but didn’t have the opportunity til now.

I really am sorry for everything you are going through. in the first draft of your post (before the edits) you seemed to almost blame the younger “Blakes” and “Brendas” as much as the partners and ppl in power who perpetuate the issues you are experiencing. Others seem to echo that, or at least resent Blake or Brenda.

As a white male, who is more of a Beta Tom than an Alpha Blake, I sincerely would like to know how I can help make things better. To be honest, when I get work I am not thinking of anyone else (white or POC). I am just trying to get through this hell job as best I can. I come from a poor family - dumb as hell backwoods white trash - so I feel like I struggle to fit in and am relieved whenever a senior or partner treats me with a bare minimum of respect. I recognize that being white is an advantage, and it’s not fair. But also, I am just a person like you, who also gets treated like shit at my job, is tired, overworked, and barely has time to eat food sometimes. I’m not actively trying to oppress anyone, I’m just trying to get by.

I honestly don’t know what I can do to help with your situation when I have no power or say at my firm, other than try my best to be nice and respectful to everyone regardless of color, gender, etc. but I’d like to help, and for you not to resent me. any advice would be appreciated.

I don't think that anyone resents the people that care. I've has some very candid conversation with white people that I consider allies or sorts. Have they done anything to make things better? No. But them caring about these issues and not pretending like they don't exist is a lot for me. Also, little social things help. If you're being invited out to lunch with people your year and you realize that the minority in your group is arbitrarily being left out, say something and get that person invited. I've had people do that for me. It's a really nice gesture and helped me to build comrade with new people at the firm.

The job is hard. period. Sometimes the line gets blurred between whether this is just a hard job or whether its active discrimination. All you can do is your best.

[Anonymous User]

Minority male. We have a similar problem; some partners will even favor junior wasps over minority anyone. Four of us are stuck taking orders from a wasp partner and his first year associate. There were five, but one lateraled last month.

Haha, this happens at my firm, too.............. we had a first year attend a Markman Hearing in federal court, while the mid-level black associate on the litigation stayed behind. The black associate has a fantastic rep, so I doubt bad work product is why they got excluded.

That’s an asshole move on the partner’s part. I’m surprised the mid-level didn’t abandon that case.

In ours, the client is based out of South America and one of the other associates speaks fluent Spanish. So instead of having him take the lead, the partner picked a wasp junior who was tasked to find a translator. The partner told the client the translator cost was necessary and never gave the client the option of speaking to the Spanish-speaking associate.

[KunAgnis]

Minority male. We have a similar problem; some partners will even favor junior wasps over minority anyone. Four of us are stuck taking orders from a wasp partner and his first year associate. There were five, but one lateraled last month.

Haha, this happens at my firm, too.............. we had a first year attend a Markman Hearing in federal court, while the mid-level black associate on the litigation stayed behind. The black associate has a fantastic rep, so I doubt bad work product is why they got excluded.

That’s an asshole move on the partner’s part. I’m surprised the mid-level didn’t abandon that case.

In ours, the client is based out of South America and one of the other associates speaks fluent Spanish. So instead of having him take the lead, the partner picked a wasp junior who was tasked to find a translator. The partner told the client the translator cost was necessary and never gave the client the option of speaking to the Spanish-speaking associate.

That sounds a bit off . . . Usually languages are listed on profiles that anyone can see. The client can dictate the relationship as they control the workflow. Are you telling me this client didn't bother to look through profiles and save translator fees? When clients will regularly nickel and dime over billed hours?

[Anonymous User]

Asian male here.

I echo a lot of what had been said here. I have a lot of other anecdotes but to me bottom line is I often feel the pressure to be whiter than even my white colleagues to constantly prove I had same background (English is my only language and I actually grew up in a Jewish town and went to a 90+% white private school).

It’s just pretty insane. I have used some stereotypes to my advantage but overall Asian men tend to be boxed into what one professor described to me as work for “doers” not “thinkers.”

I have to constantly fight. I am considered aggressive by ANY standard but you have to be or partners just assume you don’t want the work for some reason. I think women (including white women) have similar issues where stereotypes make partners, maybe on an unconscious level, think we’re more suited for basically back (sometimes literally) office work.

But when I make my desires known, I honestly haven’t had troubles getting the assignments I wanted. It takes time and hard work to overcome stereotypes but it can be done.

Asians being called “soldiers” is a bit triggering for me. It’s almost always a sign the Asians in question are taking on shitty assignments and constantly taking “one” for the team. On some level, I am actually mad at some of my Asian colleagues for allowing that kind behavior without fighting for better assignments.

[Anonymous User]

Asian male here.

I echo a lot of what had been said here. I have a lot of other anecdotes but to me bottom line is I often feel the pressure to be whiter than even my white colleagues to constantly prove I had same background (English is my only language and I actually grew up in a Jewish town and went to a 90+% white private school).

It’s just pretty insane. I have used some stereotypes to my advantage but overall Asian men tend to be boxed into what one professor described to me as work for “doers” not “thinkers.”

I have to constantly fight. I am considered aggressive by ANY standard but you have to be or partners just assume you don’t want the work for some reason. I think women (including white women) have similar issues where stereotypes make partners, maybe on an unconscious level, think we’re more suited for basically back (sometimes literally) office work.

But when I make my desires known, I honestly haven’t had troubles getting the assignments I wanted. It takes time and hard work to overcome stereotypes but it can be done.

It also doesn't help that Asians don't back each other, or prioritize selling out over helping other Asian Americans, unlike literally every other demographic out there. If suddenly the democrats were saying you needed affirmative action in college sports, you wouldn't see a large % of African Americans saying what a great idea that is, and agreeing that there are too many African Americans in college sports to virtue signal to other people, in hopes that they'll get more accepted. For some reason, this is entirely acceptable with Asians, because they've grown accustomed to selling each other out. So other demographics feel perfectly comfortable dumping on Asians.


It's like they say in the podcast at 40:10 (https://youtu.be/1BqBbKt0haM?t=2410), you can tell within the first interaction whether someone's an AHA (Asian that Hates Asians) or someone who gets it. There are a ridiculous amount of AHAs in law and the tech industry. For the AHA's, great, you have your Senior Associate position at your big law firm, you're now the "Chang Chang" pet at a V50, congrats, hope it was all worth it. So prestigious

[Anonymous User]

I shut the Chang Chang thing down fast. I have pulled people aside and told them they’d be stuck as associates if they played along.

The most recent version that drives me insane is Asian girls outright saying they were the token Asian girl that loved bubble tea in high school.

A lot of them won’t listen.

[Aptitude]

I shut the Chang Chang thing down fast. I have pulled people aside and told them they’d be stuck as associates if they played along.

The most recent version that drives me insane is Asian girls outright saying they were the token Asian girl that loved bubble tea in high school.

A lot of them won’t listen.

Have you had any luck with that? I've found that most of them are delusional or in denial. Then they start realizing it a year or two later when their career has gone nowhere or they're about to get laid off. Asian women are some of the biggest AHAs out there at law firms, I'm shocked when I meet one that's not.

But like I said prior, "you must have stellar grades and come from a top law school", it means a lot! It shows hard work, intelligence, talent. Um...unless you're an Asian guy, then you're just a robot, with no personality, and none of that matters. You're an engineer from Caltech or MIT?! You must be a damn savant if you're white or a URM, a beacon within your community. If you're an Asian guy? Boring nerd, lacks personality, only does good on tests. He's even probably stealing our trade secrets and taking them to Asia. Probably charge the guy for espionage.

What's hilarious is, at a decent amount of big American firms in Asia, the Managing Partners are white, or there will be many white partners. A lot of the times when a big time Asian company comes to the US, the local exec/partner/VPs are still white. And then we wonder why problems occur like why Asian associates aren't a big part of working with Asian companies, or are just the token in the meeting.

I've always said that Asians need to find a way to start their own firms, and connect with Asian execs. It's happening and has already happened in the tech industry. There are just way too many AHAs and short-sighted people by nature at law firms.

[cavalier1138]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

[QContinuum]

I feel like the new sub-discussion about who is and isn't a good member of their own race is a bit iffy...

I agree. I think it's important to keep this thread a "safe space," and that's why I've been particularly hesitant to moderate this thread - for example, there are multiple posts that don't really comply with our anon posting rules, but I haven't outed any of 'em because I don't want to discourage anyone from participating in this discussion.

But part of keeping this thread a "safe space" means no attacking people based on their race or gender. This thread is not going to be much of a "safe space" if we allow explicitly sexist and/or racist content to flourish unchecked. So from this point on, I am asking that no one (including self-identified Asians) refer to Asians as "Chang Chang" or "Asian that Hates Asians," or attack "Asian women [as being] some of the biggest [Asians that Hate Asians] out there" (or anything along those lines). Most egregiously, one post even referred to Asian associates as "pet".

This stuff is ridiculous and absolutely unacceptable. It's the dictionary definition of a hostile environment for Asians, and particularly for Asian women. As the moderators have been pretty much "hands off" this thread up until now, I won't take any action regarding previous posts ITT, but any future posters who employ sexist/racist language will have their posts de-anoned and will be officially warned (and possibly banned for repeat offenses).