It’s the little things....... Forum

[Anonymous User]

I DO identify as Asian and Asian American. My entire extracurricular activity history in college/law school was basically: student government, debate team, APALSA and most of the Asian/Chinese organizations on campus. I do care about Asian Americans, Asians, and the problems we all face together as a group.

What I do not accept nor care about is the idea, which Aptitude's linked videos seemingly imply, that I am not American and never will be and I should just call myself Chinese or whatever happens to be the case. That's just straight up white supremacist/stormfront bullshit.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I think it’s a sad reality that there is a not insignificant group of people out there who *won’t* see you as American simply because of the way you look. I think those videos are a misguided but understandable response to that reality.

[Anonymous User]

I DO identify as Asian and Asian American. My entire extracurricular activity history in college/law school was basically: student government, debate team, APALSA and most of the Asian/Chinese organizations on campus. I do care about Asian Americans, Asians, and the problems we all face together as a group.

What I do not accept nor care about is the idea, which Aptitude's linked videos seemingly imply, that I am not American and never will be and I should just call myself Chinese or whatever happens to be the case. That's just straight up white supremacist/stormfront bullshit.

I think this raises a critical point, which is that there are Asians (as in immigrants from Asia) and Asian-Americans (who were born and raised here in the States; who've generally never lived in Asia; and who may have had little to no contact with Asian culture other than through their parents). As the anon above points out, there shouldn't be a duty on Asian-Americans to socialize with Asians merely because of their shared skin color. Nor should Asian-Americans have an obligation to professionally champion Asians they don't even know, again merely because of their shared skin color.

We see this with other minorities as well. There are second/third/nth-generation Hispanic Americans who've never lived in Latin America and don't speak Spanish, who get attacked by Hispanic immigrants for their perceived "lack of solidarity" due to their shared skin color.

[Anonymous User]

Right. And I wish people would recognize that kind of tribalism is counterproductive and alienates people otherwise well positioned and very willing to help.

[rcharter1978]

Right. And I wish people would recognize that kind of tribalism is counterproductive and alienates people otherwise well positioned and very willing to help.

As a black American whose parents are immigrants, I've appreciated the help of black people from all backgrounds who are in a position to do so. I don't particularly think it had anything to do with shared interests (although they were there) but more to do with the fact that with the Blake boomers looking out for young white dudes as long as they were straight male and white it was nice to give someone else that was qualified a chance.

I guess you can call it tribalism?

I know I make it a point to try to reach out to other black people in the workplace and offer help and support wherever I can. I'm not in the firm world though so maybe it's totally different.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I think it’s disingenous to characterize people as feeling entitled to help. I see it as “we” (in my mind, meaning all minorities especially in biglaw) are in it together because we face a lot of the same obstacles with a lot of institutional inertia that’s hard to overcome. We should (but are not obligated to) help each other to succeed because the odds are against us. I see it as a collective effort.

And there’s only so much you can do given the huge institutional hurdles. For example, at my office, I think Asian-Americans are generally overreprented in incoming associate classes, but that’s because a partner made the recruiting push. Yet, Asian-American attorneys are nonexistent in the senior, counsel or partner ranks. Not to speak at all of the utter lack of black, Hispanic, lgbt, etc. attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

Not the tribalism I am talking about. I reach out all the time and have helped a lot of people that asked for it. What I object to is some people labeling me an “AHA” or worse when I decline to help.

That kind of sense of entitlement is sickening no matter the source but it’s particularly disheartening coming from people that I do genuinely think I could help although not in the way they want.

I do agree it is a collective effort. Some of that effort has to be made by us and we can’t just sit on our asses and wait for our white male colleagues to figure out the best way to include us. What can they do to help us? What can we do to help them help us? Do you even have anything constructive to say if a partner came to you and earnestly asked “how could we help Asian American associates do well and rise through the ranks?”

There are some things relatively unique to us. A lot of Asians (including those born here and especially the girls) tend to enter a room slightly slouched and looking around. This leaves an unconscious first impression that you’re not confident (worse, servile) and that first impression can be difficult to overcome. Easy fix. Before you enter the room, raise your chin, pinch your shoulder blades, straighten your back, and open the door, and then smile as you reach out for the interviewer’s hand for a firm shake.

A lot of Americans learn all of that naturally growing up. “Be confident, puff your chest out, firm handshake” or some variation is common. Some of it is just more (especially non-Asian) Americans work out and played competitive sports growing up naturally developing a more upright and apparently more confident posture.

Asians/Asian Americans on the other hand are taught to be deferential and even avoid eye contact in some cultures.

Little things like this are so easy to fix and really should be expressly taught more frequently. This alone dramatically changes the way a lot of partners and white male associates interact with the Asian/Asian American associates.

[Wild Card]

Not the tribalism I am talking about. I reach out all the time and have helped a lot of people that asked for it. What I object to is some people labeling me an “AHA” or worse when I decline to help.

That kind of sense of entitlement is sickening no matter the source but it’s particularly disheartening coming from people that I do genuinely think I could help although not in the way they want.

I do my best. I was one of the lucky 1L summer associates at V10 and that made me a very popular mentor so I carried 5 mentees at one point (proud they all got big law by the way). Pardon me if I decline to pass resumes from the tens of APALSA members trying to upgrade their V100 to V10.

I recently spoke to a young woman of Asian-American descent from an upper-middle class gated suburban community. She told me how even though her family has lived in this country for five generations, many in her community still made fun of her and ostracized her simply because of the way she looked. You will not be able to change the way you look and because of the way you look, many if not most people will never accept you as a part of their community; they will never consider you to be an American or even a human being deserving the equal protection of the law.

I think that instead of running away from the hard truth that many will never accept you and treat you with respect or dignity, it would be better to fight actively for equal treatment for the race to which you happen to belong--or for the equal treatment of all Americans, if you'd like.

My point is that this is completely separate from interacting with [slur redacted].

[Anonymous User]

I grew up with that "hard truth" but a huge part of what makes America awesome for me, and makes it impossible for me to identify as Chinese (with no American at the end), is I am in fact accepted by most people in the relevant communities I grew up in. In fact, I feel more of a sense of belonging in those communities that are predominantly white because of shared interests and personal history.

What some people don't seem to understand is Asians and Asian Americans will never consider me to be fully part of their community either because I just didn't have the same experiences growing up. Is it hard to understand being annoyed that the same people calling me "hanjian" would feel entitled to my help? One time I dated a Chinese girl and some people literally asked her in Chinese, and I understood enough of it (I spent a semester in China and a semester in Japan so it was actually wrong for Aptitude to assume I am not interested in Asian culture and my heritage at all) to know it was basically something like, "why are you dating him? He's basically 'laowai.'"

Yeah, I get the occasional "where you from?" "I was born in New York City and grew up in New Jersey" "Oh, I am sorry." but overall I still have more things in common with the same white colleagues that assumed I was an immigrant than with most Asians/Asian Americans that I interact with. I am aware enough to know part of why I get to feel that way is I have stayed in the East Coast liberal bubble for most of my life but even when I traveled to places like Savannah or visited my ex-girlfriend's parents on a Nebraska farm, I almost never felt excluded.

[Anonymous User]

Not the tribalism I am talking about. I reach out all the time and have helped a lot of people that asked for it. What I object to is some people labeling me an “AHA” or worse when I decline to help.

That kind of sense of entitlement is sickening no matter the source but it’s particularly disheartening coming from people that I do genuinely think I could help although not in the way they want.

I do agree it is a collective effort. Some of that effort has to be made by us and we can’t just sit on our asses and wait for our white male colleagues to figure out the best way to include us. What can they do to help us? What can we do to help them help us? Do you even have anything constructive to say if a partner came to you and earnestly asked “how could we help Asian American associates do well and rise through the ranks?”

There are some things relatively unique to us. A lot of Asians (including those born here and especially the girls) tend to enter a room slightly slouched and looking around. This leaves an unconscious first impression that you’re not confident (worse, servile) and that first impression can be difficult to overcome. Easy fix. Before you enter the room, raise your chin, pinch your shoulder blades, straighten your back, and open the door, and then smile as you reach out for the interviewer’s hand for a firm shake.

A lot of Americans learn all of that naturally growing up. “Be confident, puff your chest out, firm handshake” or some variation is common. Some of it is just more (especially non-Asian) Americans work out and played competitive sports growing up naturally developing a more upright and apparently more confident posture.

Asians/Asian Americans on the other hand are taught to be deferential and even avoid eye contact in some cultures.

Little things like this are so easy to fix and really should be expressly taught more frequently. This alone dramatically changes the way a lot of partners and white male associates interact with the Asian/Asian American associates.

I used to think this too, and have made a lot of efforts to change my body language and tone of speech. I work in a large IP boutique with many IP litigators. After seeing some enough coworkers who completely lack the ability to make eye contact or acknowledge my presence with so much as a "hi" in the hallways - among other seriously maladjusted/socially awkward behavior - I've come to conclude it's not solely social awkwardness that keeps a lot of Asians behind. At our firm, there's a severe diversity problem in the partnership ranks.

[Anonymous User]

Not saying it is the only problem. And I was explicitly advised some firms were terrible with discrimination (the DC office of a particular firm that starts with C and ends with t came up a lot) against Asians. I will not walk away from or deny discrimination exists. I am even willing to add I think the situation overall is pretty bad in big law relative to investment banking and consulting (personal experience with both).

What I am saying is we can't just sit on our asses and not help the firms (and our well-meaning white male colleagues) help us. If we can be assertive and confident in our demeanor, it is a lot easier for someone, anyone, to champion for us.

[rcharter1978]

I know what you mean about feeling a little "left out" as, given my suburban background I sometimes feel that way around other black people who at least have families with a longer history in this country. However, I enjoy traditional and stereotypically black things, I just also love nerd things and am also pretty dorky.

I've always found common ground and I think that if you put in even a little bit of the effort you put in to gel with others you might have a different experience.

Maybe our culture is different, because it seems like, for the most part, the black people I've met, we all know that we generally are rowing up a river of shit in a leaky kayak, so even if there are big differences between people it's normally not terrible. Even with the group I'm kinda left out of at work, im cool with everyone, I guess I maybe just don't have the experiences that make them close friends, but all are supportive and nice.

I'm sure people think I'm a nerdy "Oreo" and I just may be ( I feel like this term is so 80s that I'm not sure it's still a put down). However everyone seems okay with everyone else.

I also feel like, while it may be cultural, trying to shame someone into getting you a job just feels like sad desperation. I don't know how many times that has happened to you, but if it hasn't been often it might just be that the people asking are on edge, desperate for a job and would be upset no matter what their skin tone.

So, long ramble short, I understand your POV, and I don't think you hate other Asians, but maybe you judge them a little more harshly, like people do with their kids.

[Anonymous User]

I know what you mean about feeling a little "left out" as, given my suburban background I sometimes feel that way around other black people who at least have families with a longer history in this country. However, I enjoy traditional and stereotypically black things, I just also love nerd things and am also pretty dorky.

I've always found common ground and I think that if you put in even a little bit of the effort you put in to gel with others you might have a different experience.

I have found a lot of common ground and that's why I have a lot of Asian/Asian American friends today. What I really find repulsive are people like Aptitude that will pretty happily call me AHA and some Asians (non-American Chinese mainly) that will literally call me race traitor and/or insist I have some obligation to help Asians/Asian Americans that I don't know at all.

Maybe our culture is different, because it seems like, for the most part, the black people I've met, we all know that we generally are rowing up a river of shit in a leaky kayak, so even if there are big differences between people it's normally not terrible. Even with the group I'm kinda left out of at work, im cool with everyone, I guess I maybe just don't have the experiences that make them close friends, but all are supportive and nice.

I'm sure people think I'm a nerdy "Oreo" and I just may be ( I feel like this term is so 80s that I'm not sure it's still a put down). However everyone seems okay with everyone else.

This is consistent with my experience most of the time. Just swap oreo for "banana"/"twinkie" and black for Asian.

I also feel like, while it may be cultural, trying to shame someone into getting you a job just feels like sad desperation. I don't know how many times that has happened to you,

It has happened to me a LOT. But to be clear, a lot of it was because I was very visible (at one time, VP/P/Treasurer of 3 Asian clubs while sitting on student government for debate team at one point in college) and most people really weren't as bad as my posts sound. Still, even on a proportional basis, I got a lot more rather weird (possibly just socially awkward?) interactions with Asian/Asian American students.

but if it hasn't been often it might just be that the people asking are on edge, desperate for a job and would be upset no matter what their skin tone.

So, long ramble short, I understand your POV, and I don't think you hate other Asians, but maybe you judge them a little more harshly, like people do with their kids.

Yeah, I agree, especially with the part about desperation and that's why I am still friends with some of them. I generally just forget such episodes next day but when people start throwing terms like "AHA" and hanjian around, I am not going to want to talk to them again. I am not going to want to talk to people that insist I am not American but Chinese (with no American attached) either. I really don't think these are "harsh" judgments.

[lavarman84]

Right. And I wish people would recognize that kind of tribalism is counterproductive and alienates people otherwise well positioned and very willing to help.

As a black American whose parents are immigrants, I've appreciated the help of black people from all backgrounds who are in a position to do so. I don't particularly think it had anything to do with shared interests (although they were there) but more to do with the fact that with the Blake boomers looking out for young white dudes as long as they were straight male and white it was nice to give someone else that was qualified a chance.

I guess you can call it tribalism?

I know I make it a point to try to reach out to other black people in the workplace and offer help and support wherever I can. I'm not in the firm world though so maybe it's totally different.

I don't think that's a problematic form of tribalism. Black people should help each other out. As you said, there are plenty of white people who will do the same with whites. I think the problematic form of tribalism was making this an "us vs. them" issue. Basically, attacking anybody who didn't fit into that poster's (Aptitude?) vision of what an Asian should be.

I think it’s a sad reality that there is a not insignificant group of people out there who *won’t* see you as American simply because of the way you look. I think those videos are a misguided but understandable response to that reality.

It is the sad reality. But it is changing for the better. Not quickly enough for my taste, but society is starting to really push back. We're nowhere near where we need to be, but there are a lot of people out there who are willing to fight hard for true equality.

[rcharter1978]

When I think about it though, the AHA label is really fucked up. I generally can shrug my shoulders and keep it moving if someone were to call me an Oreo or imply that I'm one. I'm pretty nerdy, so whatevs.

But as I understand it from the discussion here calling someone an AHA is kinda, sort of, a little along the lines of calling someone an uncle Tom, and I would NEVER be okay with someone calling me that or implying that about me.

[Anonymous User]

Both the AHA and tribalism stuff seems to originate from an unbalanced sense of self. When you are not confident enough in your identity as a person, you may fall back on your racial identity (or, in the case of the AHA label, distancing yourself from a particular identity). It's understandable though - when you face discrimination or isolation as a minority, you lose confidence in yourself and retreat and identify as part of a group to give you back that confidence. However, sometimes that leads to the us v. them mentality.

I am Chinese, with dual US-Canadian citizenship. I can fluidly move between these various aspects of myself. I am proud to call myself Chinese, or Canadian, or American, and I don't think any of these things are contradictory. I am who I am, and I object if anyone tells me I am strictly Chinese or Asian simply because of what I look like.

Personally, I try to incorporate various aspects of my Asian-ness into work settings. For example, providing coworkers with food at Lunar New Year, taking them out to Asian restaurants, talking about my family, etc. It's a moment to connect with someone on a personal level, educate them a bit, and shows them that I am confident in my identity while still being able to relate to them. I don't feel like I need to pretend to be like them to fit in. Would that make a white male partner treat me equally to a white male associate? Maybe, maybe not, but that is out of my control. Institutionally, I think participation in diversity initiatives is important. As for helping out other minorities personally, that is a personal decision and I don't think anyone should be guilted into being forced to do it.

[Anonymous User]

Not saying it is the only problem. And I was explicitly advised some firms were terrible with discrimination (the DC office of a particular firm that starts with C and ends with t came up a lot) against Asians. I will not walk away from or deny discrimination exists. I am even willing to add I think the situation overall is pretty bad in big law relative to investment banking and consulting (personal experience with both).

What I am saying is we can't just sit on our asses and not help the firms (and our well-meaning white male colleagues) help us. If we can be assertive and confident in our demeanor, it is a lot easier for someone, anyone, to champion for us.

Sorry that this is an old thread, but which firm's name starts with a C but ends with a T?

[Anonymous User]

Not saying it is the only problem. And I was explicitly advised some firms were terrible with discrimination (the DC office of a particular firm that starts with C and ends with t came up a lot) against Asians. I will not walk away from or deny discrimination exists. I am even willing to add I think the situation overall is pretty bad in big law relative to investment banking and consulting (personal experience with both).

What I am saying is we can't just sit on our asses and not help the firms (and our well-meaning white male colleagues) help us. If we can be assertive and confident in our demeanor, it is a lot easier for someone, anyone, to champion for us.

Sorry that this is an old thread, but which firm's name starts with a C but ends with a T?

Covington.JK

[coffeeaddict100]

Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft?

[Anonymous User]

Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft

[Anonymous User]

Not saying it is the only problem. And I was explicitly advised some firms were terrible with discrimination (the DC office of a particular firm that starts with C and ends with t came up a lot) against Asians. I will not walk away from or deny discrimination exists. I am even willing to add I think the situation overall is pretty bad in big law relative to investment banking and consulting (personal experience with both).

What I am saying is we can't just sit on our asses and not help the firms (and our well-meaning white male colleagues) help us. If we can be assertive and confident in our demeanor, it is a lot easier for someone, anyone, to champion for us.

Sorry that this is an old thread, but which firm's name starts with a C but ends with a T?

Covington.JK

Honestly I think that is what they meant