BigFed quality of life? Forum

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Altair

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BigFed quality of life?

Post by Altair » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:47 pm

Can anyone who has worked in DC or somewhere else for a federal agency give me some reliable info on quality of life? I've heard conflicting things- I'd only want to consider this option for less pay if QOL is good.

I'd be particularly interested in any info on doing federal employment law for a federal agency. I have a good bit of experience as a federal law clerk, so I gained a lot of knowledge of employment law. How is the QOL doing federal employment law for a federal agency compared to being a federal law clerk?

Neff

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Neff » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:20 am

Similarly interested in this question as well. Also, I hear BigFed being touted on this forum as pretty sweet gigs, but seeing the GS scales was a huge shock to me. I mean, how does anyone survive in DC/NY making like $90,000 for hard to get positions like AUSAs? And I don't mean survive as in "paying rent and having enough to eat," because obviously that's possible, but with the atrociously expensive COL it does not seem like you can do much more than paying rent and eating (at home, not out). Kids? Savings? 401(k)? Loans? Seems like an unfathomable paycut from biglaw.

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Neff » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:31 am

I dug up this old thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=153344, in which the AUSA says he/she "works 8-6:30 and one day a weekend when things are normal. Trial is 16 hour days easy." That's ludicrous for a job that pays $53,000 minimum and $138,000 maxed out (https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts). I get it's prestigious and meaningful, but... damn. 8-6:30 plus Saturday is like 2000 billable-hour busy for a third of the pay. Am I missing something?

Altair

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Altair » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:44 am

Yeah, and on the other extreme I had a relative who worked as an attorney for a regional office at HUD and he said that everyone spent their days pretending like they were actually doing something when there was next to nothing to do. That's pretty much the public perception of federal employment.

The extremes in the workload make deciding on federal employment really tricky. If I did work for the federal government, I'd be doing employment law - i.e. representing a federal agency against employee claims. I saw an old post in which a guy said that he got most cases dismissed on summary judgment, which indicates that the job involves pretty familiar litigation matters. But the devil is in the details - how many summary judgment briefs a month do you write, how many depositions, etc? If the answer is that it's similar to private practice then I'd just as soon do litigation there since the pay is better.

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:05 am

I've worked in enforcement capacities in two federal agencies and the hours varied a ton but were generally good. At the first agency, it was around 9-6:30, with one or two days a month having to stay later due to deadlines or issues coming up in litigation. Weekends were rare, maybe once every few months I would have to do significant work on a Saturday or Sunday. Many weekends I would need to work for an hour or two though.

At my current job, ironically in a much more prestigious agency, the hours are fairly strictly 9-5:30, with very rare weekend work or work beyond say around 6:30. Maybe 2-3 times a year at most.

From my experience, attorneys in non-programmatic legal roles (e.g. employment law) tend to have better hours, and at both agencies the employment lawyers in the general counsel's office worked fairly strict 9-5:30 schedules.

Btw the AUSA salaries posted above do not include locality pay, and while certainly no-one is getting rich as an AUSA, the salaries are far below what AUSAs actually get paid. To get the real salaries, multiply the ones on that page by the locality percentages (usually around 25-35% in major metro areas).

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:41 am

Neff wrote:I dug up this old thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=153344, in which the AUSA says he/she "works 8-6:30 and one day a weekend when things are normal. Trial is 16 hour days easy." That's ludicrous for a job that pays $53,000 minimum and $138,000 maxed out (https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts). I get it's prestigious and meaningful, but... damn. 8-6:30 plus Saturday is like 2000 billable-hour busy for a third of the pay. Am I missing something?
Yeah, locality pay makes a big difference. You’re also conflating a few things - the GS scale actually pays better than the AD AUSA scale, and the financial regulators pay better than the GS scale.

Also keep in mind that markets vary. Where I am (obviously not NYC/DC) the legal market is small enough that AUSA salaries are pretty competitive.

And people vary. Contrary to popular perception, not all AUSAs had biglaw as an option. If you’re coming from state prosecution - which is relatively common in some districts - AUSA salaries are usually much higher than their state counterparts. But also for some people the nature of the job is worth the pay cut, depending on things like temperament or personal circumstances (maybe you don’t have kids. Maybe your partner is in biglaw. Maybe you grew up living on $35k a year so your standards are different).

Re: the original question, yes, I agree that doing employment law at a federal agency is very much a 9-5:30 job with little weekend work. AUSA jobs are not really like that.

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:18 am

90k, even in DC, isn't chump change. You can have a perfectly nice life on that salary. I'm a second-year at a biglaw firm currently interviewing for bigfed positions, and I would take the salary cut without a second thought. Lower tax bracket, student loan repayment assistance, no need for all the expenses that make my biglaw existence bearable (e.g. downtown apartment so I can get to the office in 10 minutes, house cleaner, convenient food, etc.). I'm so freaking excited to have a life again, rather than just billing 14 hours a day every day.

I would also keep in mind that QOL isn't just hours. There's a huge difference working late to prep for trial as an AUSA and working until 2 a.m. for a bullshit last-minute assignment that adds no value to the client, only to appease a neurotic partner and/or run up the bill.

Neff

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Neff » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:32 pm

Thanks for clarifying the locality pay as well as the above insights.

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Raiden

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Raiden » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:57 pm

I can’t speak to BigFed, but when I was a state prosecutor, getting in at 8 am was expected (if not required) and many stayed in the office at least until 6. There would always be some type of busy work on the weekends (determining whether to file cases, then filing), and your entire weekend is gone if you have trial. Personally, I didn’t care if my weekend was taken up for a trial because I really enjoyed that part. It was the busy work that got to me.

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Anony1234

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anony1234 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:31 pm

Raiden wrote:I can’t speak to BigFed, but when I was a state prosecutor, getting in at 8 am was expected (if not required) and many stayed in the office at least until 6. There would always be some type of busy work on the weekends (determining whether to file cases, then filing), and your entire weekend is gone if you have trial. Personally, I didn’t care if my weekend was taken up for a trial because I really enjoyed that part. It was the busy work that got to me.
BigFed here. It varies. I worked near big law hours last year on a litigation case. I don't think it was necessarily "expected" (as in no one would have said anything if I chose to leave earlier during the week and elected not to work on the weekends) but I think everyone wanted to pitch in and ensure no one overburdened. I also probably took on more because I enjoyed it and wanted the experience.

Normal life closer to 9:30-6:00 with minimal weekend work. I've never worked BigLaw. I see the difference as expectations. You can work a fair amount if you choose but no one will push back if you make clear you want a predictable schedule. Pay scale struggle is real. Many people who lateraled from BigLaw have a spouse still working in BigLaw. Otherwise, living in VA is the norm and a more modest budget with normal expenses. I've noticed my coworkers travel a lot, which always surprises me. I assume just priority setting with budgets, but encouraging that people can make that work for them.

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:22 pm

I might add that bigfed QOL can be improved by a short stint in biglaw first. When I make the transition, I'll have saved for some major expenses, like a house downpayment and car, that would have been harder on a government salary. And then I will actually have time to enjoy them :D

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Re: BigFed quality of life?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:40 pm

Also BigFed here. QOL varies dramatically between agencies and within agencies, as you can imagine. I'm a trial attorney and my typical hours are 8:30 to 6 with every other Friday off. If I'm not in a trial, I rarely work beyond that. If I am in a trial, the hours are longer of course, but it's much more bearable than Biglaw because (1) I'm doing much more substantive work, and (2) the hours are really dictated by what I think I need and not what some insane partner demands.
Anonymous User wrote:I might add that bigfed QOL can be improved by a short stint in biglaw first. When I make the transition, I'll have saved for some major expenses, like a house downpayment and car, that would have been harder on a government salary. And then I will actually have time to enjoy them :D
This is my experience, and it's quite true. I left biglaw after paying my student loans and saving for a down payment, which has made post-biglaw life much easier. I hope to have kids, but I think I can more than swing it on my GS-14 salary (not to mention I don't plan on sending them to private schools, etc.).

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