Exit options and "best" practice areas

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sparty99

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby sparty99 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I work in Employee Benefits and Executive Comp. and I think it’s probably the best practice area (I’m in a firm that does more counseling than deals). The exit options are either benefits counsel at a company, another firm, or an upper level HR position (such as director of HR). Since we do mostly counseling work, we can control our hours. I’m usually in around 930, out by 7. There aren’t many lulls throughout the day, which makes hitting hours during the daytime a little more realistic.

Obviously the one thing that sucks is that there is so much law you need to learn (tax code, ERISA, HIPAA, ACA, etc.), but it makes you really desirable to a lot of employers because they know if they screw up on exec comp or benefits, they could get hefty penalties from the DOL or IRS.


Employee Benefits is really boring.

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:29 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Where do restructuring people go?

restructuring mid-level, now at my 2nd V10.

Based on what i've seen (in order of frequency):
1. stick around current firm until counsel or super senior (we have 11th-12th year associates...)
2. continue doing bk at smaller firm/different city
3. pivot to general corporate work at smaller firm
4. use secondment with fund/bank client to land some type of hybrid position

exit options suck

So it's not common for restructuring associates to leave a firm to work for a fund or a bank, and traditionally it requires a secondment for a move like that to happen?

Definitely not common. Those positions appear reserved for more senior associates and/or people with pre-law finance experience. The secondment step certainly isn't required, but it does seem to help. Tricky thing is that it's an entirely different sport (unless you're really just trying to be the desk lawyer). It's tough to compete with MBA's and buy-side analysts who have been doing this for years by the time you've graduated law school. Need to put in a lot more time to catch up.

carsondalywashere

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby carsondalywashere » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Where do restructuring people go?

restructuring mid-level, now at my 2nd V10.

Based on what i've seen (in order of frequency):
1. stick around current firm until counsel or super senior (we have 11th-12th year associates...)
2. continue doing bk at smaller firm/different city
3. pivot to general corporate work at smaller firm
4. use secondment with fund/bank client to land some type of hybrid position

exit options suck

So it's not common for restructuring associates to leave a firm to work for a fund or a bank, and traditionally it requires a secondment for a move like that to happen?

Definitely not common. Those positions appear reserved for more senior associates and/or people with pre-law finance experience. The secondment step certainly isn't required, but it does seem to help. Tricky thing is that it's an entirely different sport (unless you're really just trying to be the desk lawyer). It's tough to compete with MBA's and buy-side analysts who have been doing this for years by the time you've graduated law school. Need to put in a lot more time to catch up.

Is is safe to say that if you go into restructuring, you should expect to be working at some kind of law firm for the rest of your career? What happens to the people who don't get to stay on as counsel at a large firm like Kirkland/Weil? Most small BK firms don't do debtor work, correct?

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:00 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Where do restructuring people go?

restructuring mid-level, now at my 2nd V10.

Based on what i've seen (in order of frequency):
1. stick around current firm until counsel or super senior (we have 11th-12th year associates...)
2. continue doing bk at smaller firm/different city
3. pivot to general corporate work at smaller firm
4. use secondment with fund/bank client to land some type of hybrid position

exit options suck

So it's not common for restructuring associates to leave a firm to work for a fund or a bank, and traditionally it requires a secondment for a move like that to happen?

Definitely not common. Those positions appear reserved for more senior associates and/or people with pre-law finance experience. The secondment step certainly isn't required, but it does seem to help. Tricky thing is that it's an entirely different sport (unless you're really just trying to be the desk lawyer). It's tough to compete with MBA's and buy-side analysts who have been doing this for years by the time you've graduated law school. Need to put in a lot more time to catch up.

Is is safe to say that if you go into restructuring, you should expect to be working at some kind of law firm for the rest of your career? What happens to the people who don't get to stay on as counsel at a large firm like Kirkland/Weil? Most small BK firms don't do debtor work, correct?

That's the expectation I carry with me every day anyway. I still don't know what happens to all those Weil/Kirkland debtor-side associates. Smaller firms in NYC generally represent peripheral players like trustees, landlords, vendors, etc... I'm sure there's an ecosystem of firms in other cities that work on smaller deals/cases.

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:[
I've heard of some finance associates (banking,high yield, lev fin) pivot to firms and join their RE finance practice. Have you seen RE finance lawyers gravitate towards more generalist RE roles?


I'ts hard to do, but not impossible. Your formative years, even as a junior RE finance associate, is learning to negotiate/analyze/mark-up title, survey, zoning, Phase I/IIs, etc., and deal with RE-specific things like environmental liability, lease/license review, LL/T SNDAs and estoppels, fixture filings, etc. Things that a real estate paralegal or junior associate can handle, but you would be expected to at least be able to catch major issues as the person running the deal. I've heard of finance associates transitioning into RE finance by running deals on the finance points and taking second seat to a trained real estate associate on real property specific matters (and slowly over time losing the training wheels).

Depending on your firm, IMHO it's probably too expensive to train from scratch a 4th/5th year finance associate to do general RE matters like leasing, acquisitions/dispositions, RE M&A support (LOL WHICH IS NIGHTMARE SO THAT'S FOR THE BEST), transaction related land use issues. They might keep you relegated to finance deals, and maybe over a couple of years you can start to pick up enough RE knowledge to handle other RE matters.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[
I've heard of some finance associates (banking,high yield, lev fin) pivot to firms and join their RE finance practice. Have you seen RE finance lawyers gravitate towards more generalist RE roles?


I'ts hard to do, but not impossible. Your formative years, even as a junior RE finance associate, is learning to negotiate/analyze/mark-up title, survey, zoning, Phase I/IIs, etc., and deal with RE-specific things like environmental liability, lease/license review, LL/T SNDAs and estoppels, fixture filings, etc. Things that a real estate paralegal or junior associate can handle, but you would be expected to at least be able to catch major issues as the person running the deal. I've heard of finance associates transitioning into RE finance by running deals on the finance points and taking second seat to a trained real estate associate on real property specific matters (and slowly over time losing the training wheels).

Depending on your firm, IMHO it's probably too expensive to train from scratch a 4th/5th year finance associate to do general RE matters like leasing, acquisitions/dispositions, RE M&A support (LOL WHICH IS NIGHTMARE SO THAT'S FOR THE BEST), transaction related land use issues. They might keep you relegated to finance deals, and maybe over a couple of years you can start to pick up enough RE knowledge to handle other RE matters.


What firm(s) do you recommend with this kind of practice for a 2nd year trying to lateral out of traditional lev fin? I've seen some people go to Ropes & Gray.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm

Just chiming in, investigations/white collar has some of the worst exit options, along with general commercial lit. The work is interesting no doubt but there's zero path to true partnership (you can make service partner for a big rainmaker) without leaving for government (USAO or DOJ) first. Only problem is the gov. positions are all hypercompetitive. When you don't have the option to go-house, pretty much every 5th year to 9th year associate in a city's white collar market is applying to the same 5 AUSA spots.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[
I've heard of some finance associates (banking,high yield, lev fin) pivot to firms and join their RE finance practice. Have you seen RE finance lawyers gravitate towards more generalist RE roles?


I'ts hard to do, but not impossible. Your formative years, even as a junior RE finance associate, is learning to negotiate/analyze/mark-up title, survey, zoning, Phase I/IIs, etc., and deal with RE-specific things like environmental liability, lease/license review, LL/T SNDAs and estoppels, fixture filings, etc. Things that a real estate paralegal or junior associate can handle, but you would be expected to at least be able to catch major issues as the person running the deal. I've heard of finance associates transitioning into RE finance by running deals on the finance points and taking second seat to a trained real estate associate on real property specific matters (and slowly over time losing the training wheels).

Depending on your firm, IMHO it's probably too expensive to train from scratch a 4th/5th year finance associate to do general RE matters like leasing, acquisitions/dispositions, RE M&A support (LOL WHICH IS NIGHTMARE SO THAT'S FOR THE BEST), transaction related land use issues. They might keep you relegated to finance deals, and maybe over a couple of years you can start to pick up enough RE knowledge to handle other RE matters.


What firm(s) do you recommend with this kind of practice for a 2nd year trying to lateral out of traditional lev fin? I've seen some people go to Ropes & Gray.


With a handful of exceptions, most top RE groups at V50 firms are RE finance heavy (like Gibson, S&C, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden) with ancillary generalist RE practices. The generalist RE practice pops up at RE dirt firms like Fried Frank, Greenberg and similar firms.

Firms that give me an impression of well balanced RE group based on past deals and reputation are Paul Weiss, Paul Hastings, Goodwin, Kramer Levin.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[
I've heard of some finance associates (banking,high yield, lev fin) pivot to firms and join their RE finance practice. Have you seen RE finance lawyers gravitate towards more generalist RE roles?


I'ts hard to do, but not impossible. Your formative years, even as a junior RE finance associate, is learning to negotiate/analyze/mark-up title, survey, zoning, Phase I/IIs, etc., and deal with RE-specific things like environmental liability, lease/license review, LL/T SNDAs and estoppels, fixture filings, etc. Things that a real estate paralegal or junior associate can handle, but you would be expected to at least be able to catch major issues as the person running the deal. I've heard of finance associates transitioning into RE finance by running deals on the finance points and taking second seat to a trained real estate associate on real property specific matters (and slowly over time losing the training wheels).

Depending on your firm, IMHO it's probably too expensive to train from scratch a 4th/5th year finance associate to do general RE matters like leasing, acquisitions/dispositions, RE M&A support (LOL WHICH IS NIGHTMARE SO THAT'S FOR THE BEST), transaction related land use issues. They might keep you relegated to finance deals, and maybe over a couple of years you can start to pick up enough RE knowledge to handle other RE matters.


What firm(s) do you recommend with this kind of practice for a 2nd year trying to lateral out of traditional lev fin? I've seen some people go to Ropes & Gray.


With a handful of exceptions, most top RE groups at V50 firms are RE finance heavy (like Gibson, S&C, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden) with ancillary generalist RE practices. The generalist RE practice pops up at RE dirt firms like Fried Frank, Greenberg and similar firms.

Firms that give me an impression of well balanced RE group based on past deals and reputation are Paul Weiss, Paul Hastings, Goodwin, Kramer Levin.

What about Kirkland, Sidley, and Latham?

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby LBJ's Hair » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just chiming in, investigations/white collar has some of the worst exit options, along with general commercial lit. The work is interesting no doubt but there's zero path to true partnership (you can make service partner for a big rainmaker) without leaving for government (USAO or DOJ) first. Only problem is the gov. positions are all hypercompetitive. When you don't have the option to go-house, pretty much every 5th year to 9th year associate in a city's white collar market is applying to the same 5 AUSA spots.


Isn't that why most associates seek out white collar in the first place though--to jump to AUSA?

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[
I've heard of some finance associates (banking,high yield, lev fin) pivot to firms and join their RE finance practice. Have you seen RE finance lawyers gravitate towards more generalist RE roles?


I'ts hard to do, but not impossible. Your formative years, even as a junior RE finance associate, is learning to negotiate/analyze/mark-up title, survey, zoning, Phase I/IIs, etc., and deal with RE-specific things like environmental liability, lease/license review, LL/T SNDAs and estoppels, fixture filings, etc. Things that a real estate paralegal or junior associate can handle, but you would be expected to at least be able to catch major issues as the person running the deal. I've heard of finance associates transitioning into RE finance by running deals on the finance points and taking second seat to a trained real estate associate on real property specific matters (and slowly over time losing the training wheels).

Depending on your firm, IMHO it's probably too expensive to train from scratch a 4th/5th year finance associate to do general RE matters like leasing, acquisitions/dispositions, RE M&A support (LOL WHICH IS NIGHTMARE SO THAT'S FOR THE BEST), transaction related land use issues. They might keep you relegated to finance deals, and maybe over a couple of years you can start to pick up enough RE knowledge to handle other RE matters.


What firm(s) do you recommend with this kind of practice for a 2nd year trying to lateral out of traditional lev fin? I've seen some people go to Ropes & Gray.


With a handful of exceptions, most top RE groups at V50 firms are RE finance heavy (like Gibson, S&C, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden) with ancillary generalist RE practices. The generalist RE practice pops up at RE dirt firms like Fried Frank, Greenberg and similar firms.

Firms that give me an impression of well balanced RE group based on past deals and reputation are Paul Weiss, Paul Hastings, Goodwin, Kramer Levin.

What about Kirkland, Sidley, and Latham?


Personally, only time I've ever been against them is on RE finance related deals--they obviously do RE general work too, it's just I've never encountered them across the table on a leasing deal or run of the mill acquisitions/dispositions. I know Latham does good land use work in other offices. You'll see those names frequently on the corporate support side though.

A good generalist RE practice group is rare at top firms b/c the way the industry works (especially post-recession), clients just aren't going to pay traditional big law salaries for general RE work (other thank banks for lender-side work and some complex condo stuff). Elite dirt RE firms/groups generally pay less than market as a result, aside from FF, GT (maybe HK?--don't know their salary scale).

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just chiming in, investigations/white collar has some of the worst exit options, along with general commercial lit. The work is interesting no doubt but there's zero path to true partnership (you can make service partner for a big rainmaker) without leaving for government (USAO or DOJ) first. Only problem is the gov. positions are all hypercompetitive. When you don't have the option to go-house, pretty much every 5th year to 9th year associate in a city's white collar market is applying to the same 5 AUSA spots.


Why zero path to partnership from commercial lit? I would assume most of the people who do mainly commercial lit aren't going to the government

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RedGiant

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby RedGiant » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:52 pm

I'm biased, because I love business, but i think that doing "general corporate" for a few years in a tech-heavy practice (Valley or otherwise) will put you in the best position to move in-house and then later be a GC. I am decent at securities, Cap Mkts, venture, M&A, corp gov (board advisory), shareholder activism, private company work, public company work, employment, stock administration, commerical and soft IP/privacy. I do aaaaaaalll the things. And I know how to do them because I worked with tech companies for a lot of years, and saw aaaaaaaaaaaall the things come up, and learned from good colleagues how to best handle them. I like the fact that my skillset is diverse, my time in a firm meant working on lots of different types of deals, and I am mostly a generalist nowadays. If you like corporate, doing this kind of work, with pleasant clients is a true joy.

RedPurpleBlue

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:59 pm

RedGiant wrote:I am decent at securities, Cap Mkts, venture, M&A, corp gov (board advisory), shareholder activism, private company work, public company work, employment, stock administration, commerical and soft IP/privacy.


Not to undermine you, but you can do all of these things in general corporate at pretty much every big firm. The only thing that you might miss out on is the commercial and soft IP/privacy part, but you still might get some exposure in that too at non-tech firms.

beeoBoop

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Re: Exit options and "best" practice areas

Postby beeoBoop » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thoughts on general commercial lit?


Typically gen lit has to worst exit options. There are a ton of people looking for this work and few spots



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