Am I Getting Fired? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

[barkschool]

How much of your time is attributable to this one partner?

If some inconsequential amount then I wouldn’t worry about it at all unless she’s is some special position of power or influence.

[Anonymous User]

How much of your time is attributable to this one partner?

If some inconsequential amount then I wouldn’t worry about it at all unless she’s is some special position of power or influence.

OP here, she conducted my review bec most (obv not all) of the work I did was for her, but I’ve certainly done a lot of work for other partners.

[misterjames]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

Given the bolded, you are definitely under the gun. I would start looking to lateral asap.

[Anonymous User]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

Yea...sounds like she’s asking you to look somewhere else and you really don’t know what’s being said behind the scenes about your performance as well. The fact that she’s happy to have you not be around cause of your vacation is in fact telling too.

But something also doesn’t add up. You said there’s no indication of poor work product yet she says you miss major issues (with the plural). You sure it was only that one mistake?

[LSATWiz.com]

I think it's better to be proactive than not be proactive. It doesn't sound like firing is imminent but (1) I don't think they would share negative information if they definitely wanted you to stay unless the overall message was clearly positive as they know it may incentivize you to leave, and (2) it's not psychologically healthy to have to worry about job stability for months on end. If lateraling is an option, I think it would be worthwhile jut because of (2).

[Anonymous User]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

[jarofsoup]

I would start looking. Who really knows. Just cover your ass.

[SFSpartan]

OP - since you're getting most of your work from this person, I'd start looking.

Stub year - Unless the partner that wrote your review gives you a ton of work, has a lot of political pull in the firm, etc., I think you'll be fine. In any case, you're gonna have a tough time finding something since people will assume you got fired. I'd sit tight and keep doing perfect work.

[Anonymous User]

It could be that youre not in the best position even if not get fired immediately. Why wait?

[nealric]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

[Anonymous User]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

[Elston Gunn]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I don’t have anything to add to what others said (which I agree with), but I do just want to say that any partner who would give an “extremely negative review” to a stub (barring some kind of truly epic fuckup) is a total asshole.

[Npret]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

Dude she’s giving you the heads up before you’re fired. I would expect it to be at next review that your given your walking papers.
Just my experience of these situations over the years.

Edit to add- a major mistake causing you to contact the client directly is bad for the partner and the firm, not just you. I doubt you can recover, even if you are a genius on all the rest of the work you’re ever given. They will not forget that mistake even if it isn’t brought up again.

[Npret]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

Wow. I feel the senior was trying to prepare you for being let go. This sounds intense. I’ve known of some very bad to work with people but never a public scene about a first years mistake. Usually the more senior associate takes the heat inside the office behind closed doors.
I would not say anything about it being the partners fault and not yours.
I guess wait and see what happens at the review but you need to figure out a plan.

[Anonymous User]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

Wow. I feel the senior was trying to prepare you for being let go. This sounds intense. I’ve known of some very bad to work with people but never a public scene about a first years mistake. Usually the more senior associate takes the heat inside the office behind closed doors.
I would not say anything about it being the partners fault and not yours.
I guess wait and see what happens at the review but you need to figure out a plan.

Stub here. Thanks for the answers. I guess what’s the best way for a stub to look? I assume other places don’t want a stub/ it looks weird.

[Anonymous User]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

Dude she’s giving you the heads up before you’re fired. I would expect it to be at next review that your given your walking papers.
Just my experience of these situations over the years.

Edit to add- a major mistake causing you to contact the client directly is bad for the partner and the firm, not just you. I doubt you can recover, even if you are a genius on all the rest of the work you’re ever given. They will not forget that mistake even if it isn’t brought up again.

OP here, thanks for the above. Assuming that’s the case, do I have that long? Our reviews are roughly once a year- if I can stay until Sept/Oct so I’ve been there a full two years I’d be “happy”. But at the same time I don’t want to continue operating like nothing’s happened (though I’m working even harder than before) and then just one day get the boot without any notice.

[Npret]

Hi Everyone, please don’t troll. I apologize for the length.

Started biglaw in Sept of 2017, so officially a second year but had my first review recently. I’ve billed over 2500 hours, and never had any indication from partners that my work product was poor (had drafting edits, but nothing terrible). I recently made one mistake that was rather large (there was a misunderstanding where I had to reach out to the client for confirmation), but the client ended up receiving the work product within the initial time frame and there was no adverse impact (though I agree it’s a bad look).

At my review I was told that my energy and effort have been great, but I miss “major issues”, and have poor attention to detail. Most concerning was she said I should think about whether this is a good fit, and that is something only I can answer (whatever that means).

What’s strange is she cheerfully agreed to let me go on vacation recently, and I’ve never had the sense that my work product was DRAMATICALLY inferior. I’m also not oblivious.

I can probably avoid working with her once I finish a few matters, but should I aggressively be looking for another job? Or is this more akin to probation? Any advice would be helpful.

Dude she’s giving you the heads up before you’re fired. I would expect it to be at next review that your given your walking papers.
Just my experience of these situations over the years.

Edit to add- a major mistake causing you to contact the client directly is bad for the partner and the firm, not just you. I doubt you can recover, even if you are a genius on all the rest of the work you’re ever given. They will not forget that mistake even if it isn’t brought up again.

OP here, thanks for the above. Assuming that’s the case, do I have that long? Our reviews are roughly once a year- if I can stay until Sept/Oct so I’ve been there a full two years I’d be “happy”. But at the same time I don’t want to continue operating like nothing’s happened (though I’m working even harder than before) and then just one day get the boot without any notice.

I don’t think you will get fired without notice.

[Npret]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

Wow. I feel the senior was trying to prepare you for being let go. This sounds intense. I’ve known of some very bad to work with people but never a public scene about a first years mistake. Usually the more senior associate takes the heat inside the office behind closed doors.
I would not say anything about it being the partners fault and not yours.
I guess wait and see what happens at the review but you need to figure out a plan.

Stub here. Thanks for the answers. I guess what’s the best way for a stub to look? I assume other places don’t want a stub/ it looks weird.

Why not talk to the senior again and ask him what’s really up? The situation you are in sounds toxic. It may be that you won’t be fired if the firm doesn’t want to fire stub year associates no matter what the rain maker partner wants. It’s a bad look for firms. Everyone finds out about the stub year being fired and then the new incoming associates are panicked from day one for the next five years.

I’m not there so I can’t advise you as to that specific firm. I’ve just never heard a situation escalate into a public confrontation between a rain making partner and a first year.

If that senior reached out to you, he or she may have been trying to help you out. Talk to them realistically about what they foresee as your future.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the above. Assuming that’s the case, do I have that long? Our reviews are roughly once a year- if I can stay until Sept/Oct so I’ve been there a full two years I’d be “happy”. But at the same time I don’t want to continue operating like nothing’s happened (though I’m working even harder than before) and then just one day get the boot without any notice.

I was a similar position a few years ago: second year, made hours the year before, got hit with a "maybe you should think about what you want" surprise meeting sometime not too long after my formal review. As long as you're getting hours, I'd imagine you're ok until next review. Mine fell off dramatically, shortly before I got the "soft" talk (this was not a coincidence). A couple of months later I got the "hard" talk and was given under a month to find a new job (I did eventually negotiate some additional website time). If they were really trying to push you out, you'd be getting cut off from new matters so they can justify giving you the boot. Of course, they'll blame the low hours on you while they do it.

That said, there's no reason why you have to wait a full two years to lateral. The market may or may not be hot in the fall. It makes sense to at least explore now and see what's out there.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the above. Assuming that’s the case, do I have that long? Our reviews are roughly once a year- if I can stay until Sept/Oct so I’ve been there a full two years I’d be “happy”. But at the same time I don’t want to continue operating like nothing’s happened (though I’m working even harder than before) and then just one day get the boot without any notice.

I was a similar position a few years ago: second year, made hours the year before, got hit with a "maybe you should think about what you want" surprise meeting sometime not too long after my formal review. As long as you're getting hours, I'd imagine you're ok until next review. Mine fell off dramatically, shortly before I got the "soft" talk (this was not a coincidence). A couple of months later I got the "hard" talk and was given under a month to find a new job (I did eventually negotiate some additional website time). If they were really trying to push you out, you'd be getting cut off from new matters so they can justify giving you the boot. Of course, they'll blame the low hours on you while they do it.

That said, there's no reason why you have to wait a full two years to lateral. The market may or may not be hot in the fall. It makes sense to at least explore now and see what's out there.

Thanks everyone. OP here again, with this in mind, do you all think I should talk to one of the partners who is in charge of hiring and see where I stand? Like if I can improve or if they’ve already decided my fate? Or would that be a mistake for some reason?

[Anonymous User]

Mistake. There is no way to improve. I’ve improved after a couple of unwarranted negative reviews and I still feel them haunting me, you’ll never be treated the same even if you stay and will be on the list of first people to go if they need to fire someone.

[Npret]

Mistake. There is no way to improve. I’ve improved after a couple of unwarranted negative reviews and I still feel them haunting me, you’ll never be treated the same even if you stay and will be on the list of first people to go if they need to fire someone.

This is true. You need to understand how utterly replaceable you are in big law. You also need to understand that the turnover is so high because they don’t expect people to stay for long term careers. In other words, no one is that invested you or your career.

They may care about you as a person. You may have friends and be likable. In big law the work is paramount.No one wants to take on the first or second associate who makes errors. You will create a reputation very quickly. You have to do excellent work.

You absolutely can not overcome negative reviews, no matter how unfair that might seem. You might think: “oh, but it was only one mistake.” The thing is that we get paid to not have mistakes. That’s the entire foundation of the law firms reputation.

[Anonymous User]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

Wow. I feel the senior was trying to prepare you for being let go. This sounds intense. I’ve known of some very bad to work with people but never a public scene about a first years mistake. Usually the more senior associate takes the heat inside the office behind closed doors.
I would not say anything about it being the partners fault and not yours.
I guess wait and see what happens at the review but you need to figure out a plan.

Stub here. Thanks for the answers. I guess what’s the best way for a stub to look? I assume other places don’t want a stub/ it looks weird.

Why not talk to the senior again and ask him what’s really up? The situation you are in sounds toxic. It may be that you won’t be fired if the firm doesn’t want to fire stub year associates no matter what the rain maker partner wants. It’s a bad look for firms. Everyone finds out about the stub year being fired and then the new incoming associates are panicked from day one for the next five years.

I’m not there so I can’t advise you as to that specific firm. I’ve just never heard a situation escalate into a public confrontation between a rain making partner and a first year.

If that senior reached out to you, he or she may have been trying to help you out. Talk to them realistically about what they foresee as your future.

Spoke to the senior. I think the hint that the senior was making was dead on. Now the question is, how does a stub year go looking for a new gig without looking like a complete jackass that got pushed out?

[Npret]

Not op, but a stub year with our review coming up. I have been warned by a senior associate that my reviews have been great except for one partner who has written an extremely negative review. I work for only a handful of partners. To be fair, the mistake was not mine but the partner in question but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter for review purposes.

I take the senior associate reaching out as a heads up to look elsewhere. Advice for a stub year in this position?

I think stubs will get a bit more leeway as you've only had a few months experience. I suppose if one powerful partner despises you anything can happen, but I would be much more worried if you were a rising 3rd year.

Stub year here. That’s what I think too, but the partner is a rainmaker and my group only has a handful of partners in our major metro office. I just think it’s weird that a senior went out of his way to tell me a negative review is coming that I already knew was coming, and so did he. The partner made a big public scene over the issue so literally everyone knows what happened.

Wow. I feel the senior was trying to prepare you for being let go. This sounds intense. I’ve known of some very bad to work with people but never a public scene about a first years mistake. Usually the more senior associate takes the heat inside the office behind closed doors.
I would not say anything about it being the partners fault and not yours.
I guess wait and see what happens at the review but you need to figure out a plan.

Stub here. Thanks for the answers. I guess what’s the best way for a stub to look? I assume other places don’t want a stub/ it looks weird.

Why not talk to the senior again and ask him what’s really up? The situation you are in sounds toxic. It may be that you won’t be fired if the firm doesn’t want to fire stub year associates no matter what the rain maker partner wants. It’s a bad look for firms. Everyone finds out about the stub year being fired and then the new incoming associates are panicked from day one for the next five years.

I’m not there so I can’t advise you as to that specific firm. I’ve just never heard a situation escalate into a public confrontation between a rain making partner and a first year.

If that senior reached out to you, he or she may have been trying to help you out. Talk to them realistically about what they foresee as your future.

Spoke to the senior. I think the hint that the senior was making was dead on. Now the question is, how does a stub year go looking for a new gig without looking like a complete jackass that got pushed out?

This is tough. I guess you can say you want a different practice area or possibly that the firm wasn’t a good fit. I’m not sure what to do here. Maybe the firm has some placement counseling service they will pay for a couple of sessions for you.
I would push for as much time as they can possibly give you. Tell them you need time to find something else.