How to Not Rage Quit Forum

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:17 pm

It's one of the days where I just feel like screaming fuck it and leaving my biglaw firm. I've walked myself back from the ledge before because I knew I was more junior and it would be harder to find something else. How do you talk yourself down in these moments? I absolutely hate that this job requires you to be available all day every day and no one respects you as an individual with personal needs. Need helpful advice on how you all power through this feeling.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:12 pm

By reminding myself of what I find worthwhile about the job and how it plays into my long-term goals.

YMMV, but the first can be anything from: interest in subject matter; development as a lawyer (more true as you get more senior in biglaw and stop doing grunt work); appreciation for peers or senior mentors; good client relationships; good resources; salary; etc.

The second can be goals in biglaw (partnership, of counsel) or post-biglaw (transition to gov't, saving money for transition to public interest, transitioning away from law, etc.)

If you aren't coming up with ANY answers to either #1 or #2, it may be time to consider alternatives.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:26 pm

Step 1 - Look at student loan balance
Step 2 - Look at bank account
Step 3 - go back to work and continue hating life

User avatar
ronaldo09

New
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by ronaldo09 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:08 pm

Taking weekends off as much as you can, working out 3 to 4 times a week, taking real vacations, and noting down an inventory of how many hours per week you have for fun and devote to relationships. Sometimes we under estimate our free time. Also, if possible, make sure to sleep 7 hours daily. You feel the burdens of big law more when you are tired.

User avatar
smokeylarue

Silver
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by smokeylarue » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Step 1 - Look at student loan balance
Step 2 - Look at bank account
Step 3 - go back to work and continue hating life
TITCR

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:04 pm

ronaldo09 wrote:Taking weekends off as much as you can, working out 3 to 4 times a week, taking real vacations, and noting down an inventory of how many hours per week you have for fun and devote to relationships. Sometimes we under estimate our free time. Also, if possible, make sure to sleep 7 hours daily. You feel the burdens of big law more when you are tired.
In biglaw, you cannot take weekends off in most months or sleep 7 hours daily. That's exactly why we feel like giving up sometimes. I am sure your intention was good but it seems like you have no idea what this job entails.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ronaldo09 wrote:Taking weekends off as much as you can, working out 3 to 4 times a week, taking real vacations, and noting down an inventory of how many hours per week you have for fun and devote to relationships. Sometimes we under estimate our free time. Also, if possible, make sure to sleep 7 hours daily. You feel the burdens of big law more when you are tired.
In biglaw, you cannot take weekends off in most months or sleep 7 hours daily. That's exactly why we feel like giving up sometimes. I am sure your intention was good but it seems like you have no idea what this job entails.
What practice group are you and which market? I'm at a firm that's widely called a "sweatshop," and I could consistently get 7+ hours of sleep (if it weren't for competing personal obligations, like family, etc.). I also commute 1.5 hours+ total and exercise 4-5 times a week. On track to billing 2300 this year.

ETA: I do cap markets in a major non-NYC market. There are definitely days that I don't sleep and work around the clock quite literally. But to think that's the norm isn't fair and partly what contributes to the angst in this profession.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What practice group are you and which market? I'm at a firm that's widely called a "sweatshop," and I could consistently get 7+ hours of sleep (if it weren't for competing personal obligations, like family, etc.). I also commute 1.5 hours+ total and exercise 4-5 times a week. On track to billing 2300 this year.

ETA: I do cap markets in a major non-NYC market. There are definitely days that I don't sleep and work around the clock quite literally. But to think that's the norm isn't fair and partly what contributes to the angst in this profession.
So doesn’t the bolded suggest you don’t actually consistently get 7+ hours of sleep? Because presumably everyone has actual personal obligations like family that they actually *want* to address.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ronaldo09 wrote:Taking weekends off as much as you can, working out 3 to 4 times a week, taking real vacations, and noting down an inventory of how many hours per week you have for fun and devote to relationships. Sometimes we under estimate our free time. Also, if possible, make sure to sleep 7 hours daily. You feel the burdens of big law more when you are tired.
In biglaw, you cannot take weekends off in most months or sleep 7 hours daily. That's exactly why we feel like giving up sometimes. I am sure your intention was good but it seems like you have no idea what this job entails.
What practice group are you and which market? I'm at a firm that's widely called a "sweatshop," and I could consistently get 7+ hours of sleep (if it weren't for competing personal obligations, like family, etc.). I also commute 1.5 hours+ total and exercise 4-5 times a week. On track to billing 2300 this year.

ETA: I do cap markets in a major non-NYC market. There are definitely days that I don't sleep and work around the clock quite literally. But to think that's the norm isn't fair and partly what contributes to the angst in this profession.
I do NYC M&A. Although I do know that worklife balance depends on your practice area and market, to think others have similar flexibility and balance is wrong. I mean it doesn't help those who are struggling to find any balance and don't have any choice at this point.

Also the total hours is beside the point. In some months we bill over 300 hours and in some others we bill less than 50 hours. We would love to have a constant stream of hours and bill 2300.

Not to mention not having any work during the day and getting work at 8 pm that makes you pull an all nighter. This happens often too.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


User avatar
okaygo

Silver
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:23 pm

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by okaygo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:42 pm

I’m a first year in litigation coasting to an about 2,000 year at NYC V20. My secret? Say no.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:46 am

Two weeks at a time. At this salary, every paycheck feels life changing for me. I just always try and make it to that next pay day. I don’t have a specific goal but I just want to keep adding onto my money and net worth so I can make compound interest work in my favor and be happy I grounded it out in a high paying job years from now.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:24 am

If you rage-quit, then they’ve won. They’ve gotten your time during some of the best years of your life, they don’t have to pay you your bonus, and you are trying to look for a new job without the benefit of your current job. Trust me it takes a LONG time to find a new position in this industry.

I think you ought to schedule a vacation for as soon as you can. You do not even need to go anywhere. Just take a week to clear your head and relax and not have to answer emails every minute of every day. Think about whether you really want to leave the firm and what you would like to do as the next step of my career.

One thing that helped me was watching some senior associates go through the process of bowing out. They didn’t abruptly quit. They just pared down their work considerably, pushed back and didn’t take on more than one or two assignments at a time, and delegated a ton of work to juniors. So much of being on the partner track just consists of saying “yes please” when they try to dump more and more work on you. I know people who lasted a year doing this while they looked for a new position. In this market environment, it takes a ton for a firm that is busy to just outright fire an associate who might be billing enough to be profitable even if they aren’t a viable candidate for partner and many firms just don’t do that unless you screw something up really bad or are disrespectful to a client.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:29 am

I'm a student, so sorry to not add anything helpful here, but am I really not going to be able to get 7 hours/night most nights? I understand when work happens there will be times I am in the office late/'all night', but outside of those situations...I was under the impression, including weekends, I should be able to get a full night of sleep something like 4-5 nights/week. Is that not the case?

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:09 pm

1. You need to give fewer fucks. It's very difficult (although some legitimately insane people can do it) to keep up the same striver bullshit you did in college and law school. For normal people, you really just have to round the edges and not push as hard. I'm not saying do shit work, but I am saying you should prioritize and only do the things you absolutely have to do (again, this does not mean to forget about assignments, it just means not to look under every stone imaginable). Does that still get you to "rage quit" territory sometimes? Yes.

2. A few thoughts that I have found comforting: You can only work 24 hours in a day. You can only do such a good job as you are a human being with exactly your set of skills and abilities. Pressure is ultimately self-imposed and everyone other than you, yourself, can go fuck themselves. Surrounding yourself with your favorite creature comforts (candy, asprin, drugs, music, tea, favorite sweatshirt, etc.) can help sometimes.

I am a 6th year. I have plenty of work in a busy group. It is normal to feel this way and you are not alone.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a student, so sorry to not add anything helpful here, but am I really not going to be able to get 7 hours/night most nights? I understand when work happens there will be times I am in the office late/'all night', but outside of those situations...I was under the impression, including weekends, I should be able to get a full night of sleep something like 4-5 nights/week. Is that not the case?
This comes down to firm and practice area, so you are only going to find generalities here. However, based on the experiences of my group of friends from law school, I'd say that those in M&A and similar transactional practices (Real Estate, M&A Debt Finance and Cap Markets to a lesser extent) feel more overworked and that they have less control over their lives, while sometimes actually billing fewer total hours than people in other groups. That being said, I have friends who are litigators at V10s and they are also in the office late every night and on weekends, so to some extent you're fucked no matter what group you join.

If you want predictable hours go for any group that does work independently from the deal work the firm handles. Or go to a mid-sized firm and do litigation.

User avatar
ronaldo09

New
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by ronaldo09 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You can only work 24 hours in a day. You can only do such a good job as you are a human being with exactly your set of skills and abilities.
This is very important to understand. A lot of the stress that comes as an associate is from assignments where partner/senior associate places unreasonable deadlines and demands.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. You need to give fewer fucks. It's very difficult (although some legitimately insane people can do it) to keep up the same striver bullshit you did in college and law school. For normal people, you really just have to round the edges and not push as hard. I'm not saying do shit work, but I am saying you should prioritize and only do the things you absolutely have to do (again, this does not mean to forget about assignments, it just means not to look under every stone imaginable). Does that still get you to "rage quit" territory sometimes? Yes.

2. A few thoughts that I have found comforting: You can only work 24 hours in a day. You can only do such a good job as you are a human being with exactly your set of skills and abilities. Pressure is ultimately self-imposed and everyone other than you, yourself, can go fuck themselves. Surrounding yourself with your favorite creature comforts (candy, asprin, drugs, music, tea, favorite sweatshirt, etc.) can help sometimes.

I am a 6th year. I have plenty of work in a busy group. It is normal to feel this way and you are not alone.
All of this is spot on. Giving fewer fucks is hard, but for any normal person who isn't gunning for partner, it's a necessary survival mechanism. Also, I've had plenty of rage-quit moments (I've written on this board before too) and I find it immensely helpful to have a rage/gripe unload session with a buddy who knows what it is like in biglaw, or even better, in your office (though that comes with its own trickiness). I'm lucky enough to have a classmate that started in my office before moving to a different office, same firm, which is IMO the best person to gripe with.

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


User avatar
ronaldo09

New
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by ronaldo09 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm

Also once you hit the 2 year mark (for others earlier) you learn when partner/senior associate is bluffing on deadlines and you get a feel about the real deadlines so you start to use your time more wisely. And you also do things faster which helps the first point.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a student, so sorry to not add anything helpful here, but am I really not going to be able to get 7 hours/night most nights? I understand when work happens there will be times I am in the office late/'all night', but outside of those situations...I was under the impression, including weekends, I should be able to get a full night of sleep something like 4-5 nights/week. Is that not the case?
Just wanted to chime in to offer this student some words of (hopeful) comfort. I'm a high-billing senior associate up for partner who is guilty of engaging in the "striver BS" that a prior anon mentioned. And yet I almost always get 7 hours/night most nights. In general, most partners (and virtually all clients) do not want people working deep into the night because it reduces productivity and increases the risk of error. As you note, there will be unavoidable exceptions (on the lit side, ranging from pitch to TRO to trial), but they are the exceptions. I don't think you should worry about walking around as a constantly sleep-deprived mess, even if you want to be an incorrigible striver trying to make partner. And if you don't want to make partner, you should worry still less.

Here's where the comfort gets a little colder: there are times when sleep deprivation becomes an issue. The problem is that when "work happens," sometimes it happens for weeks (or more rarely) months at a time. And you do have to learn how to function effectively and non-irritably (with a minimum of rage or quitting) while gritting it out on sleep in the 2-6 hour range for some period of time if you want to make it work in biglaw.

But those stretches aren't constant. My last one was around eight months ago (trial). Most weeks, you should be able to get a full night of sleep all 7/days a week (at least from a biglaw standpoint. Obviously if you have a newborn at home or other family/personal issue affecting sleep, your mileage might vary.)

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How to Not Rage Quit

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:31 am

My experience is that when things get busy (60-70 billable weeks), I basically have time for about 1.5 hours per day with my family (spouse & child), and 6 hours of sleep, more or less. I have an allotted time with friends once every week for about 3-4 hours on the weekend during which we participate in our shared active hobby (bouldering). I don't "work out" or do anything else any other day of the week. During slow times, I can shift family time to about 2.5 hours or more and jog as well or spend a little extra time in the evening catching up on shows or whatever.

How not to rage quit? I think saying no so that you're not always behind, focusing on always trying to grow, and really knowing/liking the people you work with. If I didn't like or trust the people in my office practice group, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


Post Reply Post Anonymous Reply  

Return to “Legal Employment”