JD v. Hogan (both DC)

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JD v. Hogan

Poll runs till Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:31 pm

Jones Day
11
24%
Hogan Lovells
34
76%
 
Total votes: 45

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JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:31 pm

Interested in lit.

EDIT: Would appreciate comments too, folks. Leaning JD.

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Elston Gunn

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Hogan by a mile. They are at least as big a player in DC and actually pay market. Also, you have the option to try regulatory work during your summer and possibly do it when you come back (which IMO is a way better lifestyle).

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:12 pm

I've heard bad things about JD but good things about Hogan from practicing attorneys in DC, whatever that's worth. Complaints weren't so much about money but more-so the sexual misconduct and generally disrespectful culture. I've heard the reverse about Hogan.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:16 pm

Hogan wtf

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 pm

It’s amazing that people still entertain the idea of working for JD. Blackbox compensation is terrible

BlackAndOrange84

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:57 pm

Unless you're going to be one of the high-flying associates who clerked for a conservative feeder judge, go HoLove. You'll be paid market, the firm has a good, friendly culture, and it seems to be one of the more humane Biglaw shops in DC. Also, I second the advice to try out regulatory practice areas during your summer. It is a lower-billing practice, and some people are a better fit for expertise-based regulatory work. It's easier to find a niche in a regulatory area to become an expert in than to distinguish yourself as a litigator. And it is a better lifestyle.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby QContinuum » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:17 pm

BlackAndOrange84 wrote:Unless you're going to be one of the high-flying associates who clerked for a conservative feeder judge, go HoLove. You'll be paid market, the firm has a good, friendly culture, and it seems to be one of the more humane Biglaw shops in DC. Also, I second the advice to try out regulatory practice areas during your summer. It is a lower-billing practice, and some people are a better fit for expertise-based regulatory work. It's easier to find a niche in a regulatory area to become an expert in than to distinguish yourself as a litigator. And it is a better lifestyle.


Seconding this. If OP has a clerkship lined up with a conservative feeder judge, JD may be the better option - OP'd be treated like a rockstar there, and would likely make market (or even a little above). Otherwise, Hogan's the better option.

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Elston Gunn

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:35 pm

If OP had a feeder clerkship lined up, I highly doubt s/he would be deciding between JD and Hogan.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:48 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:If OP had a feeder clerkship lined up, I highly doubt s/he would be deciding between JD and Hogan.


Yeah, that's fair, it'd be between JD and GDC or one of the conservative boutiques.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Hogan and it's not even close. Why are you leaning JD OP?

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hogan and it's not even close. Why are you leaning JD OP?


I was just going to post the first sentence. I'm an associate at another D.C. firm and Hogan has a great rep.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:29 pm

OP here. Was leaning JD initially because I heard better things about their lit practice, but maybe that's just for the fed clerks.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Was leaning JD initially because I heard better things about their lit practice, but maybe that's just for the fed clerks.


Personally, it would take a substantial advantage to justify JD and its reputation over Hogan, and I don't think that sort of gap exists. If you haven't done second looks, I encourage you to do so. Best of luck.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:39 am

HOGAN. Its litigation practice is comparable and you'll be making market compensation. Hours should also be roughly equivalent.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:41 am

JD pays some less than market, but it pays stars much more than market. For example, a 6th year made $810k there. They're otherwise similar (ppp, revenue, # of lawyers, clients). If you're exceedingly hard working and talented, and want to be paid for it, I'd go with JD.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby mmac » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:45 am

Hogan. Congrats!

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:JD pays some less than market, but it pays stars much more than market. For example, a 6th year made $810k there. They're otherwise similar (ppp, revenue, # of lawyers, clients). If you're exceedingly hard working and talented, and want to be paid for it, I'd go with JD.


This is exceedingly stupid. One associate makes $810K, which masks the true average (spoiler alert: it's below-market, probably significantly below-market). Most associates work hard, are talented, and want to be paid for it, and most JD associates get below-market for putting in the same hours, and most likely similar work.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:JD pays some less than market, but it pays stars much more than market. For example, a 6th year made $810k there. They're otherwise similar (ppp, revenue, # of lawyers, clients). If you're exceedingly hard working and talented, and want to be paid for it, I'd go with JD.


This was a superstar AND the son-in-law of one of the office managing partners.

Also, in the lawsuit against JD, a partner alleged that when she was hired as a SIXTH year partner, her salary was lower than that (assuming she started as non-equity).

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby d3909615 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:48 pm

The nepotism rumors about the $810k associate are untrue. His father in law is an of counsel not a managing partner.

There is seriously misleading and false information here about Jones day associate salaries. It's hard to get this data, because superstars and slackers are both embarrassed to share it, but...

With this link, you can see the salaries of all private sector employees who joined the administration. https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/

Type "Jones Day" where it says "Find a staffer, agency or former employer"

Click on the names of Jones Day associates in the admin.

Click the "See More Financial Disclosure Details" to see their Jones Day salary.

Jones Day is a meritocracy. Some people will be paid more than market. Some people will be paid less than market. The superstars aren't going to be voting on TLS.

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Elston Gunn

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:21 pm

d3909615 wrote:The nepotism rumors about the $810k associate are untrue. His father in law is an of counsel not a managing partner.

Oh well in that case...

There is seriously misleading and false information here about Jones day associate salaries. It's hard to get this data, because superstars and slackers are both embarrassed to share it, but...

With this link, you can see the salaries of all private sector employees who joined the administration. https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/

Type "Jones Day" where it says "Find a staffer, agency or former employer"

Click on the names of Jones Day associates in the admin.

Click the "See More Financial Disclosure Details" to see their Jones Day salary.

Jones Day is a meritocracy. Some people will be paid more than market. Some people will be paid less than market. The superstars aren't going to be voting on TLS.

I just did this. It was kind of fun, but I really don’t see what you think this proves your point. Which people do you think are being paid substantially above market? I saw one associate who made $170k, one who made $180k (before the recent raises it looks like, admittedly) and what looks like a tenth year (?) associate making $314k, and he is a “superstar” in that he’s so connected people have floated him as a possible judicial nominee. With bonuses, that salary is substantially below market.

I could be missing something because I spent 5 minutes on this, but you need to explain yourself.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby d3909615 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:27 pm

I don't think that's right. You'd have to look up their bios on linked and stuff, which I don't have time to do.

It's wrong to say that Jones Day pays all associates less. You start at the same salary, but where you go from there depends on how hard you work, how good you are, how much Jones Day wants you, and other performance-based factors. Sure, slackers are going to be upset that they're underpaid, but superstars would be upset if they were making the same salary as their slacker coworker who works 2/3 as much.

The problem with this poll is those superstars aren't going to be surfing TLS looking for Jones Day threads.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:50 pm

d3909615 wrote:I don't think that's right. You'd have to look up their bios on linked and stuff, which I don't have time to do.

It's wrong to say that Jones Day pays all associates less. You start at the same salary, but where you go from there depends on how hard you work, how good you are, how much Jones Day wants you, and other performance-based factors. Sure, slackers are going to be upset that they're underpaid, but superstars would be upset if they were making the same salary as their slacker coworker who works 2/3 as much.

The problem with this poll is those superstars aren't going to be surfing TLS looking for Jones Day threads.


He went to the sources that you cited, and it did not support your argument, now you're making excuses. The guy you are quoting did look up bios and class years. The problem here is that black boxes = associates lose. The whole concept of "superstar associates" is dumb because these superstars are necessarily going to be in the minority. The problem with Jones Day is that they pay below-market, and hide it with an oblique compensation scheme while peer firms are mostly transparent with base compensation.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby d3909615 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:07 pm

OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
d3909615 wrote:I don't think that's right. You'd have to look up their bios on linked and stuff, which I don't have time to do.

It's wrong to say that Jones Day pays all associates less. You start at the same salary, but where you go from there depends on how hard you work, how good you are, how much Jones Day wants you, and other performance-based factors. Sure, slackers are going to be upset that they're underpaid, but superstars would be upset if they were making the same salary as their slacker coworker who works 2/3 as much.

The problem with this poll is those superstars aren't going to be surfing TLS looking for Jones Day threads.


He went to the sources that you cited, and it did not support your argument, now you're making excuses. The guy you are quoting did look up bios and class years. The problem here is that black boxes = associates lose. The whole concept of "superstar associates" is dumb because these superstars are necessarily going to be in the minority. The problem with Jones Day is that they pay below-market, and hide it with an oblique compensation scheme while peer firms are mostly transparent with base compensation.


I have no interest in exchanging insults with an anonymous and apparently broken person. A certain kind of person posts such threads and votes in such polls, and it's not the superstar. Listen to whoever you wish to listen to, and good luck.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby QContinuum » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:27 pm

d3909615 wrote:I don't think that's right. You'd have to look up their bios on linked and stuff, which I don't have time to do.


Good thing I did it for you! Here we go:

  • Brittany B. (joined administration in 2017) - made $180k at JD (1st year - market was ~$185k ($180k plus prorated $15k bonus))
  • Annie D. (2017) - made $260k at JD (6th year - market was $370k ($280k plus $90k bonus))
  • James U. (2017) - made $170k at JD (3rd year - market was $260k ($210k plus $50k bonus))
  • Stephen V. (2017) - made $315k at JD (9th year - market for 8th years was $415k ($315k plus $100k bonus))

In four cases outta four (or four outta five, including the $810k guy), JD pays under market. It starts out paying a teensy bit under market (as seen in Brittany's case), but the difference balloons as associates get more senior. Unless you're the $810k guy, JD pays, at most, equal market (Brittany and Stephen), excluding the bonus.

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Re: JD v. Hogan (both DC)

Postby d3909615 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:34 pm

QContinuum wrote:
d3909615 wrote:I don't think that's right. You'd have to look up their bios on linked and stuff, which I don't have time to do.


Good thing I did it for you! Here we go:

  • Brittany B. (joined administration in 2017) - made $180k at JD (1st year - market was ~$185k ($180k plus prorated $15k bonus))
  • Annie D. (2017) - made $260k at JD (6th year - market was $370k ($280k plus $90k bonus))
  • James U. (2017) - made $170k at JD (3rd year - market was $260k ($210k plus $50k bonus))
  • Stephen V. (2017) - made $315k at JD (9th year - market for 8th years was $415k ($315k plus $100k bonus))

In four cases outta four (or four outta five, including the $810k guy), JD pays under market. It starts out paying a teensy bit under market (as seen in Brittany's case), but the difference balloons as associates get more senior. Unless you're the $810k guy, JD pays, at most, equal market (Brittany and Stephen), excluding the bonus.


Thanks for doing this work.

Market = 185+370+260+415+370 (6th year $810 guy) = $1.6 million, divided by 5 = $320,000 average.

JD = 180+260+170+315+810 = $1.735 million, divided by 5 = $347,000.

So using this sample, Jones Day pays 9% more than market. Another advantage is that everyone at Jones Day knows they're worth what they earn. No superstars bitter because they're underpaid. Other associates not paranoid and looking over their shoulders, because they don't deserve their salaries.

Thanks again your numbers really drove the point home.

[I edited this to correct a math error.]



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