Poll: happiness/satisfaction as an attorney (please participate) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Partly because I’m kicking myself over the path I’ve taken so far and partly because I’m just curious...how happy are you and what legal space are you in?

Feel free to leave comments detailing why you feel the way you do and if you anticipate that changing in the future.

[nealric]

There's going to be a lot of selection bias in this poll, so I'd take the results with a few spoonfuls of salt.

[Anonymous User]

I was miserable for quite some time having went into a low paying state government job after graduation. I eventually moved into private practice starting at a small firm and making my way into a midlaw/biglaw firm. I made some risky moves in the beginning and disregarded all advice along the lines of “just stick it out before you switch jobs again.” All I could think about was my enormous student loan debt and how much time I’d actually have to spend slaving away at billable hours to make a dent.

I’m a 2013 graduate and I’ve had quite a few legal jobs over a short period of time, but I managed to make my way into an awesome GS14 federal government job that pays me enough to enjoy my life, take time off, and promises PSLF down the road. I have over $200k in student loans, but now I don’t worry about it anymore.

If you had asked me two years ago if I was happy, I’d answer with a resounding “no.” Five years out from law school, I loving my life, job included.

[Anonymous User]

I was miserable for quite some time having went into a low paying state government job after graduation. I eventually moved into private practice starting at a small firm and making my way into a midlaw/biglaw firm. I made some risky moves in the beginning and disregarded all advice along the lines of “just stick it out before you switch jobs again.” All I could think about was my enormous student loan debt and how much time I’d actually have to spend slaving away at billable hours to make a dent.

I’m a 2013 graduate and I’ve had quite a few legal jobs over a short period of time, but I managed to make my way into an awesome GS14 federal government job that pays me enough to enjoy my life, take time off, and promises PSLF down the road. I have over $200k in student loans, but now I don’t worry about it anymore.

If you had asked me two years ago if I was happy, I’d answer with a resounding “no.” Five years out from law school, I loving my life, job included.

Can you share any details about your current job? Is it litigation focused? I assume it’s not AUSA position as I’ve been told that’s not particularly conducive to a great work/life balance.

[Anonymous User]

There's going to be a lot of selection bias in this poll, so I'd take the results with a few spoonfuls of salt.

Most people aren’t terribly unhappy, which is not what I expected.

[Anonymous User]

"not happy, not miserable - in house"

my job has pros and cons, but id say recently the cons are outweighing the pros. I know I'm underpaid, there's a lot of issues at my company and imo a poor compliance culture. some key members of management don't seem to understand the role of or trust the legal department. I'm actively looking to leave but not desperate to get out asap.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a V50 law firm, litigation group, in NYC. I answered miserable/counting the days.

However, I've got to say that I've been wondering if I'm so miserable because this is my first real job. It seems my coworkers who are also as miserable as me are also K-JD, and my coworkers who have past work experience are more unhappy but not miserable.

It's difficult to get used to the idea that this is what you'll do for the rest of your life, that you feel trapped because of your student loans, and feeling more alone since you spend most of the day working. If I'm being honest, my workplace environment truly isn't that bad, I get to WFH a good amount, people are friendly. And of course I make a ton of money. I think it's really the adjustment period of student-to-employee that makes a lot of first years unhappy. But this is all speculation and I'm sure some non K-JD people hate it too. Just my two cents.

I think this lifestyle can be a lot more bearable if you make sure to keep a social life and hobbies, and to remember that you aren't stuck and you can leave your job whenever you want. Feeling like you have an outside life and aren't trapped helps a lot. Typical advice, but just throwing it in.

I read TLS all of my last year of college and through law school and never expected that I'd be as unhappy as people on this forum warned. It's kind of mind-boggling.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a V50 law firm, litigation group, in NYC. I answered miserable/counting the days.

However, I've got to say that I've been wondering if I'm so miserable because this is my first real job. It seems my coworkers who are also as miserable as me are also K-JD, and my coworkers who have past work experience are more unhappy but not miserable.

It's difficult to get used to the idea that this is what you'll do for the rest of your life, that you feel trapped because of your student loans, and feeling more alone since you spend most of the day working. If I'm being honest, my workplace environment truly isn't that bad, I get to WFH a good amount, people are friendly. And of course I make a ton of money. I think it's really the adjustment period of student-to-employee that makes a lot of first years unhappy. But this is all speculation and I'm sure some non K-JD people hate it too. Just my two cents.

I think this lifestyle can be a lot more bearable if you make sure to keep a social life and hobbies, and to remember that you aren't stuck and you can leave your job whenever you want. Feeling like you have an outside life and aren't trapped helps a lot. Typical advice, but just throwing it in.

I read TLS all of my last year of college and through law school and never expected that I'd be as unhappy as people on this forum warned. It's kind of mind-boggling.

I think you make a lot of good points. I'm not K-JD and hate it but that's because I have a family and I feel like I'm in a constant tug-of-war where I can choose to be a stellar associate or a good mom but not both. To be a stellar associate, from what I've observed, requires you to farm out some of your parental duties (either to a nanny or your spouse) and you have to be okay with that or else the environment will quickly become soul-sucking. I'm not okay with that because when it comes to the time I get with my kids, exceptional quality doesn't make up for the lack of quantity. I just can't imagine this being my life forever. Maybe in-house would be better or a government job with regular hours but I've become a bit cynical and worry that law will never afford me the life that I want when it comes to work/life balance.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a V50 law firm, litigation group, in NYC. I answered miserable/counting the days.

However, I've got to say that I've been wondering if I'm so miserable because this is my first real job. It seems my coworkers who are also as miserable as me are also K-JD, and my coworkers who have past work experience are more unhappy but not miserable.

It's difficult to get used to the idea that this is what you'll do for the rest of your life, that you feel trapped because of your student loans, and feeling more alone since you spend most of the day working. If I'm being honest, my workplace environment truly isn't that bad, I get to WFH a good amount, people are friendly. And of course I make a ton of money. I think it's really the adjustment period of student-to-employee that makes a lot of first years unhappy. But this is all speculation and I'm sure some non K-JD people hate it too. Just my two cents.

I think this lifestyle can be a lot more bearable if you make sure to keep a social life and hobbies, and to remember that you aren't stuck and you can leave your job whenever you want. Feeling like you have an outside life and aren't trapped helps a lot. Typical advice, but just throwing it in.

I read TLS all of my last year of college and through law school and never expected that I'd be as unhappy as people on this forum warned. It's kind of mind-boggling.

I think you make a lot of good points. I'm not K-JD and hate it but that's because I have a family and I feel like I'm in a constant tug-of-war where I can choose to be a stellar associate or a good mom but not both. To be a stellar associate, from what I've observed, requires you to farm out some of your parental duties (either to a nanny or your spouse) and you have to be okay with that or else the environment will quickly become soul-sucking. I'm not okay with that because when it comes to the time I get with my kids, exceptional quality doesn't make up for the lack of quantity. I just can't imagine this being my life forever. Maybe in-house would be better or a government job with regular hours but I've become a bit cynical and worry that law will never afford me the life that I want when it comes to work/life balance.

(I'm the anon OP you quoted)
As a woman planning to have a family in the near-ish future this worries me as well. I've also grown cynical that I'll ever find a job in law with the right work-life balance. I just don't know what my options are really. For now I'm just trying to survive until I figure something better out.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, to the moms, I work for the feds, and my previous office especially was FILLED with moms (and dads). There are definitely time (like going to trial) when hours are nuts, but much of the time that’s not the case, and there was a huge culture of support for parenting. People were gone by 5 (sure, yes, probably some worked from home later, some of the time, but at least it was up to you to organize your time, not up to some partner who never saw his kids ever). Some of that is going to be office specific - my current office is somewhat less obvious about this, but it’s way smaller and just doesn’t have as many women.

I haven’t worked in biglaw and I don’t have kids (though am a HUGE proponent of work/life balance because I have a ton of non-work interests), so I get that I’m not the best source. But I know/know of a lot of moms who’ve made the jump from biglaw to fedgov and found it IMMENSELY more family friendly. (State gov, too.)

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, to the moms, I work for the feds, and my previous office especially was FILLED with moms (and dads). There are definitely time (like going to trial) when hours are nuts, but much of the time that’s not the case, and there was a huge culture of support for parenting. People were gone by 5 (sure, yes, probably some worked from home later, some of the time, but at least it was up to you to organize your time, not up to some partner who never saw his kids ever). Some of that is going to be office specific - my current office is somewhat less obvious about this, but it’s way smaller and just doesn’t have as many women.

I haven’t worked in biglaw and I don’t have kids (though am a HUGE proponent of work/life balance because I have a ton of non-work interests), so I get that I’m not the best source. But I know/know of a lot of moms who’ve made the jump from biglaw to fedgov and found it IMMENSELY more family friendly. (State gov, too.)

I've been looking at fedgov positions and I have no idea how to make an informed decision about which agencies I should be targeting. It seems like a crapshoot because I don't have any friends in fedgov. Do you have any advice as to which agencies would be best to target and which to avoid?

[Anonymous User]

I think it kind of depends on what you want to do. But a few comments: the lower the pay is capped at, that’s generally a negative sign (lots of federal jobs are capped at GS-14 which is fine; I think social security does a bunch of positions that are capped at GS-12 and I’ve heard of something out there capped at GS-11. Those jobs tend to be very rote and don’t really require a lot of legal knowledge). Just anecdotally, I’ve heard bad things about social security, VA, and CBP/DHS (the latter more about morale/management than the nature of the job). The financial regulators and DOJ are generally good; I think IRS is pretty decent too. (By which I mean good substantive work, decent pay, decent work-life balance.) USAOs can have lower pay and tougher hours, but the workload will depend and they’re often good gigs (civil AUSA hours are probably better than criminal).

But again, that’s pretty anecdotal. Some of it depends on where you end up, too (if not in DC).

[Anonymous User]

I think it kind of depends on what you want to do. But a few comments: the lower the pay is capped at, that’s generally a negative sign (lots of federal jobs are capped at GS-14 which is fine; I think social security does a bunch of positions that are capped at GS-12 and I’ve heard of something out there capped at GS-11. Those jobs tend to be very rote and don’t really require a lot of legal knowledge). Just anecdotally, I’ve heard bad things about social security, VA, and CBP/DHS (the latter more about morale/management than the nature of the job). The financial regulators and DOJ are generally good; I think IRS is pretty decent too. (By which I mean good substantive work, decent pay, decent work-life balance.) USAOs can have lower pay and tougher hours, but the workload will depend and they’re often good gigs (civil AUSA hours are probably better than criminal).

But again, that’s pretty anecdotal. Some of it depends on where you end up, too (if not in DC).

I just want a life. I want time with my kids. I want to make plans that I can keep. I want to get home at a reasonable hour and preferably leave work at work. I don’t care if the work is challenging but I do care if the pay is terrible. So, decent pay with the ability to have a life outside of work. Job security would be nice too.

[Anonymous User]

I have to know...who is HAPPY at their law firm? This isn't meant to be insulting but if you responded "happy," are you single? No kids? Working at a small firm? Working in a small office? Senior enough to delegate out the tasks that you don't want to do? Does your firm has a generous telecommuting policy? Details please!

[Anonymous User]

I think it kind of depends on what you want to do. But a few comments: the lower the pay is capped at, that’s generally a negative sign (lots of federal jobs are capped at GS-14 which is fine; I think social security does a bunch of positions that are capped at GS-12 and I’ve heard of something out there capped at GS-11. Those jobs tend to be very rote and don’t really require a lot of legal knowledge). Just anecdotally, I’ve heard bad things about social security, VA, and CBP/DHS (the latter more about morale/management than the nature of the job). The financial regulators and DOJ are generally good; I think IRS is pretty decent too. (By which I mean good substantive work, decent pay, decent work-life balance.) USAOs can have lower pay and tougher hours, but the workload will depend and they’re often good gigs (civil AUSA hours are probably better than criminal).

But again, that’s pretty anecdotal. Some of it depends on where you end up, too (if not in DC).

I just want a life. I want time with my kids. I want to make plans that I can keep. I want to get home at a reasonable hour and preferably leave work at work. I don’t care if the work is challenging but I do care if the pay is terrible. So, decent pay with the ability to have a life outside of work. Job security would be nice too.

As much as I am currently cursing my job for having too much to do and the hours being bad (my office is understaffed right now), I know it's nothing like biglaw. I've never had to cancel plans, I rarely work on the weekend, and because I run my own cases, no one is e-mailing me or phoning me after hours hounding me to do stuff - at least when I work late it's because I decide I need to do so. (So for instance, you could easily go home, hang with the kids, and then work at night after they're asleep; no one is going to demand you stay in the office at specific hours to get that work done.)

Job security is also definitely a thing - once you get out of your probationary period (14 months I think) it is EXTREMELY hard to get fired (like it has to be for cause i.e. you do something terrible. Not because there isn't enough work or a partner leaves or your firm merges or they decide you're not partner material).

I make just under six figures based on six years experience (not all in this job), which sure isn't biglaw, but is very livable. Salary goes up pretty much every year and caps around $130k. If you're in a massively expensive metro you may find the pay tougher, but other agencies pay a bit more than mine does.

What kinds of agencies would work depends a lot on your practice area. My sense is that the financial regulators (like the SEC) are especially good places to work (I'm afraid I don't even know enough about that to know what exact experience would translate). If you've done employment stuff or contracting, you could work in a general counsel's office. Tax --> IRS. If you haven't been looking at usajobs, just check out what's all advertised, it will you give you a better sense of what's out there.

[Anonymous User]

I think it kind of depends on what you want to do. But a few comments: the lower the pay is capped at, that’s generally a negative sign (lots of federal jobs are capped at GS-14 which is fine; I think social security does a bunch of positions that are capped at GS-12 and I’ve heard of something out there capped at GS-11. Those jobs tend to be very rote and don’t really require a lot of legal knowledge). Just anecdotally, I’ve heard bad things about social security, VA, and CBP/DHS (the latter more about morale/management than the nature of the job). The financial regulators and DOJ are generally good; I think IRS is pretty decent too. (By which I mean good substantive work, decent pay, decent work-life balance.) USAOs can have lower pay and tougher hours, but the workload will depend and they’re often good gigs (civil AUSA hours are probably better than criminal).

But again, that’s pretty anecdotal. Some of it depends on where you end up, too (if not in DC).

I just want a life. I want time with my kids. I want to make plans that I can keep. I want to get home at a reasonable hour and preferably leave work at work. I don’t care if the work is challenging but I do care if the pay is terrible. So, decent pay with the ability to have a life outside of work. Job security would be nice too.

As much as I am currently cursing my job for having too much to do and the hours being bad (my office is understaffed right now), I know it's nothing like biglaw. I've never had to cancel plans, I rarely work on the weekend, and because I run my own cases, no one is e-mailing me or phoning me after hours hounding me to do stuff - at least when I work late it's because I decide I need to do so. (So for instance, you could easily go home, hang with the kids, and then work at night after they're asleep; no one is going to demand you stay in the office at specific hours to get that work done.)

Job security is also definitely a thing - once you get out of your probationary period (14 months I think) it is EXTREMELY hard to get fired (like it has to be for cause i.e. you do something terrible. Not because there isn't enough work or a partner leaves or your firm merges or they decide you're not partner material).

I make just under six figures based on six years experience (not all in this job), which sure isn't biglaw, but is very livable. Salary goes up pretty much every year and caps around $130k. If you're in a massively expensive metro you may find the pay tougher, but other agencies pay a bit more than mine does.

What kinds of agencies would work depends a lot on your practice area. My sense is that the financial regulators (like the SEC) are especially good places to work (I'm afraid I don't even know enough about that to know what exact experience would translate). If you've done employment stuff or contracting, you could work in a general counsel's office. Tax --> IRS. If you haven't been looking at usajobs, just check out what's all advertised, it will you give you a better sense of what's out there.

It sounds like you have a pretty good thing going. I have been looking on USAJobs and it seems like a vast majority of the openings are AUSA positions. I'll keep looking.

[Anonymous User]

I have to know...who is HAPPY at their law firm? This isn't meant to be insulting but if you responded "happy," are you single? No kids? Working at a small firm? Working in a small office? Senior enough to delegate out the tasks that you don't want to do? Does your firm has a generous telecommuting policy? Details please!

Niche practice that isn't for everyone but has a great lifestyle, secondary market, love the work and the people I work with. It can be very stressful, and the job makes it hard to work out more than about twice a week and saps away some of the time and more importantly the energy I would ideally prefer to spend on my kid, but overall it's a balance that's sustainable for me and for my family.

[Anonymous User]

I'm happy. I started my own practice after two years of working for a firm. It is tough when you start out, but I have wanted to run my own business since high school, so it was something I wanted to do. Worst part is that I have to wear so many hats in operating my firm (accountant, marketer, customer relations, and of course lawyer). I find a lot more meaning in my work now that I am choosing which clients I take on and what my priorities are each day, instead of marching to someone else's orders. Solo life is definitely not for everybody, but I am happy being a lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

Surprised to see so many people that are “happy” at law firms....

[misterjames]

Surprised to see so many people that are “happy” at law firms....

yes and very few follow-ups attached those answers in this thread.

[totesTheGoat]

Surprised to see so many people that are “happy” at law firms....

yes and very few follow-ups attached those answers in this thread.

None of us has time to be going around skewing polling numbers to fit some narrative. We're spending most of our damn time approving posts from new accounts in order to keep the spam bots at bay.

For me, I voted neutral (in-house). My actual work is good, but my company culture isn't great (I've worked at 2 direct competitors whose cultures were better). The employee is treated like a cog in a machine more often than not. The bureaucracy navigation skills required to get anything done are beyond my ken. The instant I have a comfortable retirement saved up, I'm out. I'd rather spend my day doing anything besides being a desk jockey.

[Anonymous User]

I’m at a large firm and I’m extremely happy, even though I am wanting to move (mostly to a different city). Also, it may be due to my practice (Exec comp/benefits).

I work an 830-630 day and have most of my weekends to myself. I probably do significant work one weekend every two months.

After the first year, my pay is below market, but I’m not complaining given my hours. When I leave at the end of the day, I am usually one of the last people in my office. I choose to stay until 630 because I don’t have a family and my SO doesn’t get home until 7 anyway. Most people at my office are out by 6.

I’m allowed to work remotely whenever I want, no questions asked.

My office has around 100 people, so it is smaller, I guess.

I am lucky to have a job that I love and know that I’m in a very rare position.

My only negative is that because I’m in such a niche area, sometimes I can’t hit my hours. Last year I was at 1600 hours. I’m not going to get canned because it’s hard to replace midlevels, especially in my practice, but sucks missing out on bonus.