Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago) Forum

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:44 am

1. I've worked at a biglaw firm with a well-regarded formal training program and a small elite boutique with no training or mentorship to speak of but lots of early substantive opportunities. K&E is going to be much more like the former and BF the latter. One path isn't objectively better than the other -- which is preferable depends entirely on your personality. I, personally, learned probably 1,000x more getting thrown into the fire at the boutique than I did through my firm's formal training/mentorship. I have friends who I know would not have done well in my boutique but thrive in formal programs.

2. Where your friend wants to lateral in 2-4 years matters a ton. If she wants to go to another biglaw firm, K&E is unquestionably going to open more doors. Likewise, if she wants to go in house, K&E will likely provide more opportunities. But if she's looking for a job that's going to care about her actual experience, and not just the name on her resume--like a lot of prestigious PI positions, a lot of prosecutor positions, a lot of midlaw positions, a lot of government positions, etc.--BF might actually be the stronger bet. If she has offers from K&E and BF, she likely has a good enough resume to get a serious look at most places and so the marginal value add of K&E's prestige is small. Her success in lateraling (esp. outside of biglaw) is going to therefore depend a lot on her answer to questions about how many depositions she's taken, etc. BF is likely going to provide more of these sorts of experiences early on, which could be valuable for (a) obtaining a good lateral job; and (b) succeeding in that job. Finally, if your friend is looking to do something, like legal academia, that will require lots of time spent *outside* of her 9-5 (or 8-8) at one of these firms during the intervening years, well, BF is much more of a lifestyle firm and is far more likely to offer an accommodating schedule.

3. Does your friend want to do real estate? BF is stronger. Does your friend want to do bet the company litigation? K&E is stronger. Practice area interests should probably influence this question -- these firms do not really do all of the same work, and being a lawyer in a real estate practice is a reasonably different job than being a lawyer in white collar compliance or complex commercial litigation or tax law. Being a smaller firm, there are some practice areas that BF really just doesn't do much of. And if your friend is interested in one of those areas, that's an important factor to consider.

4. Finally, what are your friend's financial circumstances? She'll get paid a real amount more at K&E over the 2-4 year period in base compensation + bonuses. That said, BF pays well enough that if she's not deep in the financial debt hole or needing to save a ton for whatever her next step is, the extra K&E dough need not be a crucial part of this decision.

For what it's worth, I had a similar decision to make soon after graduating from law school. I gave up a lot of money to go to the BF-like option, and not only did it work out well for me, but I'm pretty sure it worked out well for me *because* I made that specific choice: I doubt my career would have unrolled as well if I had chosen the K&E of these two. That said, I want to emphasize again that I don't think that choosing BF over K&E is the best decision for every person or even most people who have that decision to make.

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Yardbird

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Yardbird » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Fair. But is Barack a second-tier firm in Chicago? I see that it’s not vault ranked for Chicago
Depends what you mean by second tier. its not going to work on the big deals or big cases in all likelihood like the kind you'll see at kirkland/skadden/etc. if thats important to you (and it might be for legit reasons) and you really want to do that kind of work, than it might not be optimal. i don't know about the comp, but given that it's compressed the more senior you are the more drastic the pay difference between kirkland and barack ferrazzano.

On the other hand, it has a reputation that its a nice place to work where you get a responsibility early on, and on complex work. The hours are better too (according to the vault review). so people might want it because its a better work-life balance with only a moderate pay cut as you get senior (i believe they match 190k for first years)
When you actually start doing Vault surveys as an associate, you will see how pointless Vault rankings are. Go off of chambers.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by hoos89 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:49 am

Schotes wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
..........

Are you trolling?
You don't seem to understand the definition of trolling. If you are asking if I work for Kirkland or if I am somehow affiliated, the answer is no.

What you also don't understand is that the deal flow in Chicago at Kirkland, Sidley, and Latham is higher quality than at Barack and its peers.

A good "rule of thumb" for top students is to pick one of the highly rated vault firms headquartered in the city of choice. For transactional and Chicago that is Sidley or Kirkland.

Also, both Kirkland and Sidley have informal dress code. This policy would include dark jeans with a nice shirt, or an appropriate summer dress. Perhaps Barack has gone leading edge with t-shirts and cutoffs?
Schotes wrote: I know one student who will be a SA at Kirkland Chicago next year. If he is indicative of their typical hire it is going to be great group of nice, smart people.
The above is a pretty troll-ish thing to say. The alternative is that you have literally no idea what a law firm is, because the personality of one SA has nothing to do with the culture of the firm.

I'm fully aware that there are going to be higher end deals at a high-end big law firm than at a firm like Barack, but that doesn't make it a no-brainer choice. I'd venture to guess that it's much easier to get an offer from Kirkland or Sidley than Barack and there's a reason that so many Cum Laude Northwestern grads end up at Barack. I'm also going to bet that the actual work that you are assigned at Barack early on is of greater substance than at Kirkland etc., which is worth something, as is the lower demand on your time. Yes Kirkland pays more senior associates more, but it wouldn't surprise me if the hourly pay at Barack is higher at all class years.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:29 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Schotes wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
..........

Are you trolling?
You don't seem to understand the definition of trolling. If you are asking if I work for Kirkland or if I am somehow affiliated, the answer is no.

What you also don't understand is that the deal flow in Chicago at Kirkland, Sidley, and Latham is higher quality than at Barack and its peers.

A good "rule of thumb" for top students is to pick one of the highly rated vault firms headquartered in the city of choice. For transactional and Chicago that is Sidley or Kirkland.

Also, both Kirkland and Sidley have informal dress code. This policy would include dark jeans with a nice shirt, or an appropriate summer dress. Perhaps Barack has gone leading edge with t-shirts and cutoffs?
Schotes wrote: I know one student who will be a SA at Kirkland Chicago next year. If he is indicative of their typical hire it is going to be great group of nice, smart people.
The above is a pretty troll-ish thing to say. The alternative is that you have literally no idea what a law firm is, because the personality of one SA has nothing to do with the culture of the firm.

I'm fully aware that there are going to be higher end deals at a high-end big law firm than at a firm like Barack, but that doesn't make it a no-brainer choice. I'd venture to guess that it's much easier to get an offer from Kirkland or Sidley than Barack and there's a reason that so many Cum Laude Northwestern grads end up at Barack. I'm also going to bet that the actual work that you are assigned at Barack early on is of greater substance than at Kirkland etc., which is worth something, as is the lower demand on your time. Yes Kirkland pays more senior associates more, but it wouldn't surprise me if the hourly pay at Barack is higher at all class years.
This may be a stupid question, but is cum laude at Northwestern good enough for Kirkland or Sidley?

Schotes

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Schotes » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but is cum laude at Northwestern good enough for Kirkland or Sidley?
Yes, if you interview well of course. The three large groups at Sidley Chicago seem to be U of C, Harvard, and Northwestern. Below the T14 you are going to need to be extra special.

Due to class size, Harvard may have almost as many students targeting Chicago SA as UChicago and Northwestern. Only a small portion of a Harvard class stays in Boston. So many who don't want NY apparently end up in Chicago.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:46 pm

Schotes wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but is cum laude at Northwestern good enough for Kirkland or Sidley?
Yes, if you interview well of course. The three large groups at Sidley Chicago seem to be U of C, Harvard, and Northwestern. Below the T14 you are going to need to be extra special.

Due to class size, Harvard may have almost as many students targeting Chicago SA as UChicago and Northwestern. Only a small portion of a Harvard class stays in Boston. So many who don't want NY apparently end up in Chicago.
So isn’t it fair to say that these northwestern cum laude grads just couldn’t get Kirkland and Sidley so ended up at Barack Ferrazzano?

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Schotes wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but is cum laude at Northwestern good enough for Kirkland or Sidley?
Yes, if you interview well of course. The three large groups at Sidley Chicago seem to be U of C, Harvard, and Northwestern. Below the T14 you are going to need to be extra special.

Due to class size, Harvard may have almost as many students targeting Chicago SA as UChicago and Northwestern. Only a small portion of a Harvard class stays in Boston. So many who don't want NY apparently end up in Chicago.
So isn’t it fair to say that these northwestern cum laude grads just couldn’t get Kirkland and Sidley so ended up at Barack Ferrazzano?
No one has graduation honors awarded to them prior to OCI, so that’s a dumb way to talk about it. Both Barack and Kirkland (or sidley) are very selective. Barack is likely a tougher get for any candidate because they have only a couple of summer associates each year, whereas Kirkland takes like 60. It’s just easier to get hired there, and callback data at NU bears this out, as Kirkland has a significantly lower callback GPA median. Barack only takes like top 10 percent folks generally outta OCI, so its likely those folks had Kirkland/sidley type firms if they wanted them. Laterals are a different story.

Everyone needs to accept any of these firms are great options, it just depends on what folks want.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Schotes » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
So isn’t it fair to say that these northwestern cum laude grads just couldn’t get Kirkland and Sidley so ended up at Barack Ferrazzano?
It's likely that a large majority of Chicago oriented T14 don't bid Barack at all. Perhaps the few students who are highly interested in real estate bid Barack high enough to get a sceener. For a student wanting Chicago and real estate Barack migt be their top pick.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Schotes wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
So isn’t it fair to say that these northwestern cum laude grads just couldn’t get Kirkland and Sidley so ended up at Barack Ferrazzano?
It's likely that a large majority of Chicago oriented T14 don't bid Barack at all. Perhaps the few students who are highly interested in real estate bid Barack high enough to get a sceener. For a student wanting Chicago and real estate Barack migt be their top pick.

Based on my experience at a T14 that Barack recruits from, people wanting litigation and other transactional practices bid Barack- especially litigation people. They are selective so you’re right that someone closer to median who might have a shot at Kirkland transactional practices would likely not bid BFKN because of grades. But no one should be choosing firms based on how hard they are to get anyways.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:30 am

This is a hilarious thread. FWIW I know people 3 years in to their tenure at some of these firms spouted as selective and elite in this thread and they are literally calling their Barack callback interviewers and asking for jobs. There is not a single person I know at K&E who isn’t an elite kind of fucking miserable, so maybe that’s what y’all mean by elite. Those of you saying Kirkland (jfc) is a no-brainer have either never practiced a single day of law or are sociopaths.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is a hilarious thread. FWIW I know people 3 years in to their tenure at some of these firms spouted as selective and elite in this thread and they are literally calling their Barack callback interviewers and asking for jobs. There is not a single person I know at K&E who isn’t an elite kind of fucking miserable, so maybe that’s what y’all mean by elite. Those of you saying Kirkland (jfc) is a no-brainer have either never practiced a single day of law or are sociopaths.
This is false. I work at KE Chicago and think it's a good place to work. Most people I know here seem fairly happy. Or maybe we are all sociopaths :shock:

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Formal training at biglaw firms is worthless. You get trained by being given more substantive work earlier and being mentored by people who are willing to overlook your early mistakes and know how to manage the matters properly so that you aren’t being hung out to dry.

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Re: Barack Ferrazzano or Kirkland (Chicago)

Post by OneTwoThreeFour » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:they are literally calling their Barack callback interviewers and asking for jobs
lol this bro is unhinged but the above part made me laugh, random third years cold-calling someone that did their callback interview hahahaha lol @ that and lol @ you

To OP: Both solid firms, they do pretty different types of cases though, do some research on Law360 or Google generally about the types of cases at each firm and pick based on that. The dude I'm quoting above is the sort of insane, unhinged advice you should stay away from.

Congratulations on your options, both are solid.

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