Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale Forum

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:46 pm

I'm sorry you're having a hard season. FWIW, it's no fun on the other side of the table either. After the first hour, the candidates start to blur together, and unless someone does something egregiously bad or well, I'll suggest callbacks based on resumes and hiring needs. I'm sure you're a smart person. There are just a lot of smart people from all ranks of schools. Nevertheless, here are some pointers. Feel free to disregard any/all.
UnfortunateResult wrote: 3.74 GPA and 176 LSAT and I go to a T6 in NYC on Scholarship
It's absolutely something to be proud of, but it's not relevant to recruiting. The attorneys who did well in undergrad and on the LSAT don't dwell on it and the ones who didn't think it's a poor measure of talent. This won't do you any favors during an interview, and bringing it up (especially given your current grades) make you look like someone living in the past.
UnfortunateResult wrote:
Finished 1L with a 3.18 and felt pretty shitty about it but got over it after a good night's sleep
Do you have work experience to counterbalance this?
UnfortunateResult wrote:
For example, I went to a reception the night before an interview and ended up speaking with my screener interviewer for about 30 minutes and the person said "we really want people like you to come to our firm and I hope I'm your interviewer tomorrow."
I really wish attorneys will stop saying things like that to young students. It's lip service. He might be happy to see you the following day, but short of everybody else having no/few merits, he's going to go with someone who either fits the practice group needs or has better grades (depending on the type of firm). Our firm is known for not being grade sensitive: that just means we're hiring based on practice group needs and demonstrated skill.
UnfortunateResult wrote:
Apparently, I can be pedantic at times, and be too headstrong in interviews. I'm trying to be more passive but it's something I have to learn and not natural to me. Even when I am being myself I was told by OCS and after all my practice interviews that I'm a polite thoughtful person so it doesn't make sense to me how that one defect in my interview character could explain 37 rejections. Moreover, I interviewed with a former recruiter for a V10 today who now works at the place where I've interned and he said he thought I interviewed very well.
Passive is not the answer unless you plan to do a lot of client consulting. Be honest with yourself for a minute: any chance you're aggressive and awkward? If not then maybe you blend in too well with the crowd. Try to stand out in a good way. I once had a girl who spent most of the interview discussing the merits of the people she worked for. Her resume was exceptional as is, so the fact that she seemed easy-going was a great selling point. (The counter example to that being a fellow who spent the interview talking about how much harder working he was than someone "from a top school" because "he had to be." He even listed my school as an example of kids who "have it easy.")
UnfortunateResult wrote:
In any case, besides mass mailing and signing up for fall OCI what else should I be doing? I really need a solid job (below market is fine) and I don't want to work public interest but not much is going my way.
If you're litigation, go clerk.
If you're corporate, go either in-house or work as a consultant.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by UPL » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:33 pm

You need to get better at interviewing. Regardless of what everyone's said, getting 2 callbacks after that many interviews is clear evidence that something's up. There's something happening in your interviews that's preventing firms from moving you forward. Don't focus on other people with worse grades who got offers. They are likely much better than you at interviewing.

Have you noticed at interviews, the students who punch above their weight all seem to be hogging up all the offers? Like that one classmate who has a 3.0 but has multiple offers? Go talk to them. Find out what they're doing. In my experience, a sign of a good interviewer is getting a ton of offers, far more than what their credentials would suggest.

Limit your search to NYC firms. Network hard and hustle to get interviews with firms that typically can't get T6 grads. If you're applying outside of NYC think about it from the firm's perspective. They probably think you're a prima donna from a top school who might not be that good (GPA) and who might not even stay in the city. These are all unfair generalizations, but they are what they are.

The broader pattern here is that you're not good at understanding the perspective of employers. This is a real long term problem. Forget your GPA and LSAT, they don't matter any more. The good news is that it's still early, and your problem is easily fixable. Also, you're going to be a T6 grad and that will keep a lot of doors open for you.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Wild Card » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:41 pm

Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:32 pm

Wild Card wrote:Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.
I agree this T-14 or bust needs to become YHS or bust. I drank the T-14 koolaid and I have struck out at OCI and I'm on the rode to shitlaw like those at lower ranked school.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by UnfortunateResult » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:21 pm

OP here.

To clarify the conservation, an earlier poster was talking about himself/herself when mentioning that a google search revealed political information. I’m not politically affiliated and have no such indication on any social media presence. In fact, I usher social media little.

I only mention my incoming numbers to provide the information for 0L and support the proposition that once your in a top school that’s only the beginning. Most people who get into T6 schools are very bright and numbers are imperfect predictors of 1L performance. In fact nothing is really predicts 1L performance so it’s very difficult to know how things will shake out before you get grades. Some things you can control but at my school everyone knows the doctrine, the vast majority of people take several practice tests, and all are analytically capable. If you read this know that the same will very likely be true of students at your school and the curve is real.

I never have nor would mention my LSAT or undergraduate grades in an interview becuase...common sense.

I do think I have lots to improve regarding interviewing skills. I met with a “corporate communicator” earlier this week and that was very helpful.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:19 pm

I think people are right to caution applicants against assuming a T-(whatever #) school guarantees a good outcome at OCI, but as miserable as your experience is right at this moment, it’s still way too early to say that you’ve struck out of biglaw and are doomed to shitlaw and therefore none of this is worth it. You still have a chance at biglaw and at other jobs that might turn out better in the long run. So again, I totally get why things feel really really awful right now, but I’m really hopeful that 6 months from now you will all be in a much better place.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by QContinuum » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wild Card wrote:Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.
I agree this T-14 or bust needs to become YHS or bust. I drank the T-14 koolaid and I have struck out at OCI and I'm on the rode to shitlaw like those at lower ranked school.
Disagree. The numbers don't lie: Going to a T13 or a "Super Regional" (most of the non-T13 T20) gives students an extraordinary shot at BigLaw. Of course, "extraordinary shot" doesn't mean "100% guaranteed," and I won't dispute that students at, say, Yale have more wiggle room than those at Cornell in terms of interviewing skills. But there's no data to support "YHS or bust." In terms of rough BigLaw placement strength, the list probably starts out something like Y, S, H/C/C, N/P. In terms of BigLaw placement, YHS makes no sense as a grouping, and even N/P are only a smidge beneath H/C/C and arguably should be grouped together.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Person1111 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:07 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Wild Card wrote:Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.
I agree this T-14 or bust needs to become YHS or bust. I drank the T-14 koolaid and I have struck out at OCI and I'm on the rode to shitlaw like those at lower ranked school.
Disagree. The numbers don't lie: Going to a T13 or a "Super Regional" (most of the non-T13 T20) gives students an extraordinary shot at BigLaw. Of course, "extraordinary shot" doesn't mean "100% guaranteed," and I won't dispute that students at, say, Yale have more wiggle room than those at Cornell in terms of interviewing skills. But there's no data to support "YHS or bust." In terms of rough BigLaw placement strength, the list probably starts out something like Y, S, H/C/C, N/P. In terms of BigLaw placement, YHS makes no sense as a grouping, and even N/P are only a smidge beneath H/C/C and arguably should be grouped together.
The difference is that H has significantly more nationwide portability than CCNP. If you are dead-set on NYC biglaw it's probably not going to make a significant difference, but it goes a lot further in CA, Boston, the South, Chicago (unless you are at UChicago), etc. It also makes a difference for BigFed, for clerking (although, again, not much vis-a-vis UChicago), and other non-NYC-biglaw jobs.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Anyone know what the market will be like this year? Will firms be hiring the same number of summers as last year, less, more?
Will firms still be making callbacks in the next few weeks, or are we nearing the end of the process at this point?

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by smokeylarue » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:32 pm

OP, start mass mailing offices near your home town if you haven't already. They might not often see Columbia grads and might be willing to give you a callback.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:06 pm

smokeylarue wrote:OP, start mass mailing offices near your home town if you haven't already. They might not often see Columbia grads and might be willing to give you a callback.
OP, here. I’m from a very small rural town in a rural state. There’s nothing for me there. Even the best law firms in the state don’t pay anywhere near enough to service my debt.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Wild Card » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:28 pm

Have you spoken to Irene Dorzbach? She always has a few opportunities on hand: Haynes & Boone in Texas and Greenberg Traurig in Florida, as far as I know.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:38 am

OP, I feel for you, and I want to give a piece of constructive criticism. Based on my reading of your writing, you seem very gullible. Very would even be too strong a word but gullible to a degree that someone with your grades cannot afford to be. Your posts are riddled with examples of you trusting people who ought not be trusted: CSO, Practice Interviewers, People at Receptions, and Old Adage on TLS.
UnfortunateResult wrote:For what's it worth I had an interviewer who was near top of our class 25+ years ago and on law review tell me while not fantastic, my grades are good.
RE: How Bad Your Grades Are

IDK about NYU, but your grades are bottom 25%-30% @ Columbia. By 1L October, I could pick out several people who were going to be at the bottom or near the top. The picks were on point. Several section mates independently came to the same conclusions. Your grades are as bad as some people who were noticeably incompetent. You may have worked hard, but you should understand the gravity of the results and act appropriately so let me be clear: With your grades, if you do not affirmatively convince your interviewers that you have employable traits in heaps, they will not push for your candidacy.
UnfortunateResult wrote:For example, I went to a reception the night before an interview and ended up speaking with my screener interviewer for about 30 minutes and the person said "we really want people like you to come to our firm and I hope I'm your interviewer tomorrow."
What reason does this person have to actually tell you the truth? I would literally say if I'm annoyed at someone just to get them off my back. What actually makes him live up to any part of that sentiment once he saw your grades? The answer is nothing, and they acted as such.
UnfortunateResult wrote:Any market that isn't NY or DC will rigorously question why you want to work in that market and many of them won't believe you if you honest[l]y would tell them the truth because your pedigree signals to them that you'll probably end up working in NY or one of DC, or Chi anyways.
.

I got offers from all the top firms in a secondary market. I beat my friend, who was a 1L SA in that market and had spousal ties, better grades, and is hotter than me by a mile in terms of number, speed, and quality of offers. I have never been to that market before this summer. Again, just a sentiment that you've embraced because you (probably) read it here or heard it from people and took at face value (though I won't discount that you may have had personal experience from your TX interview).

All of this seems really critical, but I really want to impress upon you how important it is to not take things at face value. No one is directly loyal to you. One big thing about this profession is that very few people are willing to offer an honest opinion, and those who are often confuse "honest" with "negative." They will tell you the truth--until it's slightly more convenient not to. If you're at Columbia, go see Jay Rhoderick. CSO employees and practice interviewers told me I was a good interviewer. Jay told me I was stiff, low energy, and negative. It was only after seeing him that I could really start to work out my flaws. I owe him every offer I have.

The correct question to be asking from now on is "How can I show this person that it would benefit them to hire me?" If you don't know the answer, this will work until you develop a better one: "I'm a charismatic, extroverted, team player who genuinely learned a lot from 1L and is looking forward to learning more and doing better more in 2L." Do everything in your power to become that. Do not be honest. Do not be yourself. If there is one thing you are proven to be, it is someone big firms do not want to hire. I enjoy sitting in the dark, being depressed, and wasting away my time watching Youtube videos so trust me when I say that that's not a personal dig at you. I know exactly what it's like to be totally unemployable.

Stop taking things at face value. Start analyzing how to behave based the fundamental truth of legal hiring: People will hire you if they think that the value you'll provide to them will exceed what they invest into you. Start adopting that mantra, and you'll start to see more success. Good luck.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by QContinuum » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:39 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:The difference is that H has significantly more nationwide portability than CCNP. If you are dead-set on NYC biglaw it's probably not going to make a significant difference, but it goes a lot further in CA, Boston, the South, Chicago (unless you are at UChicago), etc. It also makes a difference for BigFed, for clerking (although, again, not much vis-a-vis UChicago), and other non-NYC-biglaw jobs.
  • The entire thread's been about BigLaw, not clerking or BigFed. There are actually three different rankings: BigLaw, clerking/BigFed, PI. Agreed that the clerkship ranking would look different than the BigLaw ranking, although I'd still argue it doesn't make sense to lump HYS together. (BigFed generally looks for the same credentials as clerking, so the BigFed and clerking rankings should be similar if not identical.) For clerking, it'd be Yale, then Stanford, then Harvard & Chicago, then a large gap after.
  • I don't think H has "significantly more nationwide portability" than CCNP (or really, C/C and N/P since N/P are slightly weaker than C/C in BigLaw placement). I do think H has more international portability - but again, that's not what the thread's been talking about. In fact, H may be more portable internationally than even Y or S.
  • H does have a Boston advantage because H is a Boston school. I don't think this in any way supports "HYS or bust" or makes H categorically different from C/C.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wild Card wrote:Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.
I agree this T-14 or bust needs to become YHS or bust. I drank the T-14 koolaid and I have struck out at OCI and I'm on the rode to shitlaw like those at lower ranked school.
A majority of law firm hiring is structured better than selecting candidates based off law school rankings. A University of Illinois law 1L is going to place better in Chicago BL than a sizable number of T14 students. From what I remember from OCI, a substantial portion of V50 firms I interviewed at had partners who didn’t attend “T14” or give a damn about rankings. But when you lateral or apply for different jobs, firms will care about why you didn’t work at a decent law firm

Stop reflecting upon what you could have changed in then past for law school applications and hustle to get an offer anywhere. Apply to secondary markets and large firms in secondary markets. E.g., Thompson Hine, Ice Miller, Foley Lardner, Husch Blackwell, Faegre Baker Daniels, Honigman. Find a tie to these cities. Lateral after a few years. With a T14, you’ll be marketable as a lateral

Med students work anywhere (worst parts of the country), then after a few years then switch back to their hometowns. Many states are UBE...you can do the same now. Best of luck. Hope it all works out.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by QContinuum » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:A University of Illinois law 1L is going to place better in Chicago BL than a sizable number of T14 students.
Pretty sure this is wrong. Chicago is (second only to NYC) one of the least "ties-selective" legal market in the U.S. Illinois placed 31.7% of the class of '17 into BigLaw/federal clerkships. A generic (i.e., median) UI law 1L is emphatically not going to "place better in Chicago BL than a sizable number of T14 students." The median UI law 1L is gonna strike out of BigLaw altogether.
Anonymous User wrote:From what I remember from OCI, a substantial portion of V50 firms I interviewed at had partners who didn’t attend “T14” or give a damn about rankings.
T13 students are still dramatically overrepresented in BigLaw vis-a-vis the other 191 ABA-accredited law schools. The fact that BigLaw will take the top couple students from lower-ranked law schools doesn't mean there isn't a yuge hiring preference for the T13 (and to a lesser extent the T20 and a few other schools, like Fordham).

Another factor is that legal hiring has changed over the decades to be even more prestige-driven than it used to be. A Brooklyn Law student today probably has a worse shot at BigLaw than a Brooklyn Law student with the same grades two or three decades ago. Some of those non-T13 partners at BigLaw firms today might never have gotten hired at their firm if they'd applied today instead of several decades ago.
Anonymous User wrote:Med students work anywhere (worst parts of the country), then after a few years then switch back to their hometowns. Many states are UBE...you can do the same now. Best of luck. Hope it all works out.
The medical job market's quite different from the legal job market. There are remote/rural parts of the country desperate for doctors that offer sky-high salaries to lure folks for a few years. There's nothing like that in law.
Anonymous User wrote:Stop reflecting upon what you could have changed in then past for law school applications and hustle to get an offer anywhere.
This part I agree with.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:36 am

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A University of Illinois law 1L is going to place better in Chicago BL than a sizable number of T14 students.
Pretty sure this is wrong. Chicago is (second only to NYC) one of the least "ties-selective" legal market in the U.S. Illinois placed 31.7% of the class of '17 into BigLaw/federal clerkships. A generic (i.e., median) UI law 1L is emphatically not going to "place better in Chicago BL than a sizable number of T14 students." The median UI law 1L is gonna strike out of BigLaw altogether.
Anonymous User wrote:From what I remember from OCI, a substantial portion of V50 firms I interviewed at had partners who didn’t attend “T14” or give a damn about rankings.
T13 students are still dramatically overrepresented in BigLaw vis-a-vis the other 191 ABA-accredited law schools. The fact that BigLaw will take the top couple students from lower-ranked law schools doesn't mean there isn't a yuge hiring preference for the T13 (and to a lesser extent the T20 and a few other schools, like Fordham).

Another factor is that legal hiring has changed over the decades to be even more prestige-driven than it used to be. A Brooklyn Law student today probably has a worse shot at BigLaw than a Brooklyn Law student with the same grades two or three decades ago. Some of those non-T13 partners at BigLaw firms today might never have gotten hired at their firm if they'd applied today instead of several decades ago.
Anonymous User wrote:Med students work anywhere (worst parts of the country), then after a few years then switch back to their hometowns. Many states are UBE...you can do the same now. Best of luck. Hope it all works out.
The medical job market's quite different from the legal job market. There are remote/rural parts of the country desperate for doctors that offer sky-high salaries to lure folks for a few years. There's nothing like that in law.
Anonymous User wrote:Stop reflecting upon what you could have changed in then past for law school applications and hustle to get an offer anywhere.
This part I agree with.
Quoted Anon. I am referring to a 1L at Illinois who has big law credentials (Top 20%)....not saying anyone from a 1L IL is better off than being at a T14 in Chicago. The previous T14 poster is upset because they believed they’re entitled to a BL job by attending a “a higher ranked school.” Nationally, a T-14 will always have more options than a U of I law grad. I never eluded to anything otherwise. I only referred to U of I in Chicago because the decision-makers at many BL firms in this market are U of I grads. Chicago is less tie-selective but you are mistaken if you think certain schools don’t place better in Chicago irrsespective of rank. Firms in Chicago really aren’t going to say “wow, T-14. Let’s push his application in front of our OCI hiring of U of I, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana law students who are top 15% of their class.” Chicago firms can pick whoever they want and many do choose to maintain relationships with certain schools. The poster I had previously replied to should be proud that he/she went to a T14 and make the most of it, but don’t be entitled.

My caveat on the medical school profession is about the many students who are aversive to applying to secondary markets such as Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Indianapolis. While, med students will have to do rotations and residency (don’t make more than 40k a year) in the middle of no where. Instead, law students strike out at Chicago and NYC and have an anxiety filled 2L and 3L year. Secondary markets firms now pay $130-160k starting. You lose nothing by having one offer in a market. You can always lateral. I bet a BL in Minneapolis would love to have a Vandy law grad, even if you’re bottom 10%.You can always turn down the offer or use it to leverage.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by nixy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:56 pm

Eh, BL in Minneapolis isn’t that big. Pretty sure they can fill their spots with top 10% from the local schools, probably Iowa and ND, and T14 kids coming home. Plenty of MN locals aren’t going to give a crap about what they may see as a random TN school. (If the Vandy applicant has ties, sure, that would help, just didn’t get the impression that’s what you meant).

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:07 am

To the OP,

I wanted to let you know that I had almost the same stats as you grade-wise, but went to an awesome undergrad, played a DI sport, had a really impressive work history, and still struck out at OCI.

You know what? I got hired into biglaw by dropping at a firm that looked later in the year. It all worked out.

Also, I figured out what didn't work for me 1L year (large lecture classes) and played to my strengths 2L year. I was 7th in my class 2L year. I worked my ass off. I got my job before I got my grades.

Believe in yourself. Keep turning over stones. Keep kicking ass at school (and find a way to take classes in a different format where you shine).

You will get a good job. It may or may not be biglaw, but you cannot give up yet. It's way too soon!

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:To the OP,

I wanted to let you know that I had almost the same stats as you grade-wise, but went to an awesome undergrad, played a DI sport, had a really impressive work history, and still struck out at OCI.

You know what? I got hired into biglaw by dropping at a firm that looked later in the year. It all worked out.

Also, I figured out what didn't work for me 1L year (large lecture classes) and played to my strengths 2L year. I was 7th in my class 2L year. I worked my ass off. I got my job before I got my grades.

Believe in yourself. Keep turning over stones. Keep kicking ass at school (and find a way to take classes in a different format where you shine).

You will get a good job. It may or may not be biglaw, but you cannot give up yet. It's way too soon!
I am not the OP, but mind sharing your experience further? Did you solely focus on improving your grades? Or did you keep massmailing/networking throughout the semester? I am wondering where I should put more time at the moment because my biggest weakness is 1L gpa. Thank you!

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by WeeBey » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wild Card wrote:Advice for 0Ls: Don't go unless you get YHS or a FULL scholarship.
I agree this T-14 or bust needs to become YHS or bust. I drank the T-14 koolaid and I have struck out at OCI and I'm on the rode to shitlaw like those at lower ranked school.
HYS will get you in the door, but its not gonna make up for the interview. If you can't get a job in any NYC biglaw firm from median at a T14 (presumeaby when youre getting 20ish screeners) I doubt HYS is gonna help. HYS isn't gonna overcome someone whose weird and off-putting when interviewing.

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Providing a Cautionary Tale (PART 2)

Post by UnfortunateResult » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:28 pm

OP here.

I first wrote this post over one year ago. A lot has happened since then.

I ended up getting two jobs: a Biglaw firm in a secondary market that was looking for people later in the fall, and another regional law firm gig in my home state. Since I first posted, I did better grade-wise my 2L year and finished with an honors designation and had put last fall behind me.

My Biglaw summer turned out poorly; my Biglaw firm was personally unfulfilling because the kinds of people I worked with were dishonest, self-serving, paranoid, egoistic, and worst of all, inattentive to the needs of their clients. I was with a summer class of 5, and 3 of us ended up getting no-offered (all the T14 from out of state were no offered and people from local law schools were given offers). I was pissed, as you might imagine, but I'll say anger is a powerful motivator.

My experience at the regional law firm was much better. I actually really liked the attorneys and practices there. It's a place I could see myself at for a long time but I'm somewhat concerned about my debt repayment obligations. I'll have well over 200K in debt and it pays substantially less than 6 figures. I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Something may work out like it did last year, or it might not. I can't say.

If you're a 0L you need to be really careful. Going to a "good" law school means nothing. Honestly, I don't think people really give a S*** if you went to a fancy law school. If you're not their idea a "good" employee or they're not looking to hire when you hit the market you could watch your educational investment blow up. Maybe going to an T6 meant something decades ago when there were fewer well-educated people and the populations general credentials were lower, but in my experience if you attend a T14 school, those who went to T14 schools judge you for not having done better there or not being "better", and many of attorneys who didn't go to T14 schools think you're an elitist asshole who's too good for them---I imagine through analogy this is what dating after divorce in middle age might feel like.

The thing is, being a good employee and staying on with a firm is, in many ways, beyond your control. Think long and hard before you take out several hundred thousand dollars to play craps with your future. You too can go to a "top-law school" get big law, be an honors student, and end up with a job that after loan repayments and taxes puts you a hair above the federal poverty line.

I reread through this thread again and I want to close with one final thought. I want to put in a plug for Harvard Law. I don't go there, but I think Harvard really is the best law school. It's really difficult to fuck your life at HLS in a way that's entirely possible at a place like Penn, Stanford, or NYU (I'm not sure about Yale). LIPP is the ultimate protection and thus mitigates the risk of misfortune in ways other law schools don't. It doesn't matter how much money you make or what kind of legal job you do, HLS will repay your loans. You may have a "Shitlaw" job and make 5 figure but you'll be solidly middle class and make more money than most Americans ever would. I think that's worth something and not really spoken about on this forum. My school (T6) will only repay if you work for a qualified organization. Sall firms and some PI jobs don't qualify. I incentives misfit careers and tactical positioning for jobs that piles on the misery and randomness of this profession. My loans are non-dischargeable in Bankruptcy and unless I find something higher-paying before graduation, I probably won't be able to afford a house or a car newer than 10 years until I'm in my 40's. I was a top 1-2% applicant based on my numbers coming into law school. I'll end up graduating in the top-half to top-third of my class and I'm wholly fucked for the next 15 years or so. It's quite possible, depending on how my situation plays out over the next year, I could have made more money serving tables at Red Lobster than I'll take home with a T6 law degree. Think carefully about your risk and whether you have the wherewithal to survive in this profession.

Anonymous User
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Re: Providing a Cautionary Tale (PART 2)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:13 pm

UnfortunateResult wrote:OP here.

I first wrote this post over one year ago. A lot has happened since then.

I ended up getting two jobs: a Biglaw firm in a secondary market that was looking for people later in the fall, and another regional law firm gig in my home state. Since I first posted, I did better grade-wise my 2L year and finished with an honors designation and had put last fall behind me.

My Biglaw summer turned out poorly; my Biglaw firm was personally unfulfilling because the kinds of people I worked with were dishonest, self-serving, paranoid, egoistic, and worst of all, inattentive to the needs of their clients. I was with a summer class of 5, and 3 of us ended up getting no-offered (all the T14 from out of state were no offered and people from local law schools were given offers). I was pissed, as you might imagine, but I'll say anger is a powerful motivator.

My experience at the regional law firm was much better. I actually really liked the attorneys and practices there. It's a place I could see myself at for a long time but I'm somewhat concerned about my debt repayment obligations. I'll have well over 200K in debt and it pays substantially less than 6 figures. I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Something may work out like it did last year, or it might not. I can't say.

If you're a 0L you need to be really careful. Going to a "good" law school means nothing. Honestly, I don't think people really give a S*** if you went to a fancy law school. If you're not their idea a "good" employee or they're not looking to hire when you hit the market you could watch your educational investment blow up. Maybe going to an T6 meant something decades ago when there were fewer well-educated people and the populations general credentials were lower, but in my experience if you attend a T14 school, those who went to T14 schools judge you for not having done better there or not being "better", and many of attorneys who didn't go to T14 schools think you're an elitist asshole who's too good for them---I imagine through analogy this is what dating after divorce in middle age might feel like.

The thing is, being a good employee and staying on with a firm is, in many ways, beyond your control. Think long and hard before you take out several hundred thousand dollars to play craps with your future. You too can go to a "top-law school" get big law, be an honors student, and end up with a job that after loan repayments and taxes puts you a hair above the federal poverty line.

I reread through this thread again and I want to close with one final thought. I want to put in a plug for Harvard Law. I don't go there, but I think Harvard really is the best law school. It's really difficult to fuck your life at HLS in a way that's entirely possible at a place like Penn, Stanford, or NYU (I'm not sure about Yale). LIPP is the ultimate protection and thus mitigates the risk of misfortune in ways other law schools don't. It doesn't matter how much money you make or what kind of legal job you do, HLS will repay your loans. You may have a "Shitlaw" job and make 5 figure but you'll be solidly middle class and make more money than most Americans ever would. I think that's worth something and not really spoken about on this forum. My school (T6) will only repay if you work for a qualified organization. Sall firms and some PI jobs don't qualify. I incentives misfit careers and tactical positioning for jobs that piles on the misery and randomness of this profession. My loans are non-dischargeable in Bankruptcy and unless I find something higher-paying before graduation, I probably won't be able to afford a house or a car newer than 10 years until I'm in my 40's. I was a top 1-2% applicant based on my numbers coming into law school. I'll end up graduating in the top-half to top-third of my class and I'm wholly fucked for the next 15 years or so. It's quite possible, depending on how my situation plays out over the next year, I could have made more money serving tables at Red Lobster than I'll take home with a T6 law degree. Think carefully about your risk and whether you have the wherewithal to survive in this profession.
Hey just start at the regional firm you liked and lateral to biglaw if debt is your concern. At least you have an offer and a year left before graduation. With your credentials, I bet you will get something. I honestly don't get why you are being so pessimistic. Just keep working as you have done so far.

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Re: Providing a Cautionary Tale (PART 2)

Post by LBJ's Hair » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:54 pm

UnfortunateResult wrote:OP here.

I first wrote this post over one year ago. A lot has happened since then.

I ended up getting two jobs: a Biglaw firm in a secondary market that was looking for people later in the fall, and another regional law firm gig in my home state. Since I first posted, I did better grade-wise my 2L year and finished with an honors designation and had put last fall behind me.

My Biglaw summer turned out poorly; my Biglaw firm was personally unfulfilling because the kinds of people I worked with were dishonest, self-serving, paranoid, egoistic, and worst of all, inattentive to the needs of their clients. I was with a summer class of 5, and 3 of us ended up getting no-offered (all the T14 from out of state were no offered and people from local law schools were given offers). I was pissed, as you might imagine, but I'll say anger is a powerful motivator.

My experience at the regional law firm was much better. I actually really liked the attorneys and practices there. It's a place I could see myself at for a long time but I'm somewhat concerned about my debt repayment obligations. I'll have well over 200K in debt and it pays substantially less than 6 figures. I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Something may work out like it did last year, or it might not. I can't say.

If you're a 0L you need to be really careful. Going to a "good" law school means nothing. Honestly, I don't think people really give a S*** if you went to a fancy law school. If you're not their idea a "good" employee or they're not looking to hire when you hit the market you could watch your educational investment blow up. Maybe going to an T6 meant something decades ago when there were fewer well-educated people and the populations general credentials were lower, but in my experience if you attend a T14 school, those who went to T14 schools judge you for not having done better there or not being "better", and many of attorneys who didn't go to T14 schools think you're an elitist asshole who's too good for them---I imagine through analogy this is what dating after divorce in middle age might feel like.

The thing is, being a good employee and staying on with a firm is, in many ways, beyond your control. Think long and hard before you take out several hundred thousand dollars to play craps with your future. You too can go to a "top-law school" get big law, be an honors student, and end up with a job that after loan repayments and taxes puts you a hair above the federal poverty line.

I reread through this thread again and I want to close with one final thought. I want to put in a plug for Harvard Law. I don't go there, but I think Harvard really is the best law school. It's really difficult to fuck your life at HLS in a way that's entirely possible at a place like Penn, Stanford, or NYU (I'm not sure about Yale). LIPP is the ultimate protection and thus mitigates the risk of misfortune in ways other law schools don't. It doesn't matter how much money you make or what kind of legal job you do, HLS will repay your loans. You may have a "Shitlaw" job and make 5 figure but you'll be solidly middle class and make more money than most Americans ever would. I think that's worth something and not really spoken about on this forum. My school (T6) will only repay if you work for a qualified organization. Sall firms and some PI jobs don't qualify. I incentives misfit careers and tactical positioning for jobs that piles on the misery and randomness of this profession. My loans are non-dischargeable in Bankruptcy and unless I find something higher-paying before graduation, I probably won't be able to afford a house or a car newer than 10 years until I'm in my 40's. I was a top 1-2% applicant based on my numbers coming into law school. I'll end up graduating in the top-half to top-third of my class and I'm wholly fucked for the next 15 years or so. It's quite possible, depending on how my situation plays out over the next year, I could have made more money serving tables at Red Lobster than I'll take home with a T6 law degree. Think carefully about your risk and whether you have the wherewithal to survive in this profession.
Keep your head up OP. I know it feels like the world is ending, but honestly---if you finish top third at a T6, you're in the running for like, most federal district court clerkships, let alone a firm job that pays market.

Striking out at OCI sucks, but a lot of us didn't get our dream job on our first go-round. Keep applying, reach out to friends/law school acquaintances/professors/etc.

Given your credentials, there's absolutely no reason why you can't find yourself making $200K in New York in <24 months. You're in the game.

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Re: Seeking Advice and Providing a Cautionary Tale

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:39 pm

To the OP -- I know it seems tough, but many of us would love to switch positions with you. I had somewhat the opposite situation. I went to a T20 (now mid 20s) regional midwest school with a full ride scholarship. I graduated top half of my class. I was involved in mock trial and clinic, but was not on a journal.

In 2012-2013, small law and mid-law were largely off-limits to me, even after mass mailings and my school's small regional OCI (I didn't have connections to the area). I couldn't get interviews for the most part. I'd consider myself a strong interviewer, because I've been offered at the vast majority of firms or agencies that I've interviewed it.

Immediately after graduation, I ended up only having options doing private criminal defense or public defense in rural towns. I had second round interview opportunities with public defender agencies in markets like Denver and Philly but frankly couldn't afford to wait that long for an offer (funding was an issue for those agencies at the time). So I slaved away doing DUIs and some shitlaw (small PI, family law) for a few years until I had enough experience to apply to a larger secondary market.

I now work as an ADA and make almost six figures. Financially I'm comfortable, but I'll only ever be middle class because the cost of living is high here. My work-life balance is good and I enjoy the nature of the work, but I know I'm probably stuck here for the long-term. My options of moving to mid-law or any prestigious federal government position are probably not much higher than they were as a law student. They might even be worse due to aging out. I don't have the pedigree and I'd trade my basically zero school debt for a fancy degree (and $200k debt) that would get my foot in the door for interviews.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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