Wachtell v. Boies for lit Forum

[Anonymous User]

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[packer_22]

Is this Boises NYC or DC?

WLRK does a lot of interesting Lit (CBS litigation, climate change litigation, etc). They also pay more.

Boies pays less and does more litigation.

If you value a social life, you'll have more of it at Boies. If you value money and exit options, take WLRK.

Without more information (your desires, practice group areas, city preferences, relationship status, long-term career goals), its hard to be more specific.

[Anonymous User]

Is this Boises NYC or DC?

WLRK does a lot of interesting Lit (CBS litigation, climate change litigation, etc). They also pay more.

Boies pays less and does more litigation.

If you value a social life, you'll have more of it at Boies. If you value money and exit options, take WLRK.

Without more information (your desires, practice group areas, city preferences, relationship status, long-term career goals), its hard to be more specific.

Not OP but I'm considering Boies DC. What do you think about the difference between Boies NY and DC?

[PeanutsNJam]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. In a relationship, only in NYC. Looking for: substantive responsibility/work quality, exit options, etc. I realize I'm choosing to work in biglaw, so *tons* of free time is not really viable. But, if I can not be absolutely slaughtered, that would be nice I guess.

[Anonymous User]

I picked Boies when confronted with these choices after my clerkships. I think the variety of work is greater and the substantive experience is superior at Boies (for a litigator - obviously its not a conversation otherwise). After speaking with midlevel litigators at each firm, my sense was that Boies associates were in court and first-chairing depos faster, and they had the opportunity to work on cases outside the financial industry. At Wachtell, the associates still received terrific mentorship and a high quality experience, but you are choosing mostly between securities lit and M&A (or white collar, but that's not really litigation), neither of which appealed to me. The reality, of course, is that it depends at either firm what kind of case you are working: a small team with one partner and two associates will generate a lot of interesting substantive work, whereas on a massive trial team the junior associates will get squeezed either way.

As for comp, yes, Wachtell's bonuses are consistently better, but I know associates at Boies whose comp has regularly beat Wachtell. So, while over time you'll likely get paid more at Wachtell, traditionally the difference has not been as large as Wachtell v. Cravath.

One other important factor for me was that Boies has offices in other parts of the country, including my home city where I may be moving in a couple years, and they are very flexible with offices switches.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

[Veil of Ignorance]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

Doesn't Watchell require a clerkship for lit?

[Veil of Ignorance]

I picked Boies when confronted with these choices after my clerkships. I think the variety of work is greater and the substantive experience is superior at Boies (for a litigator - obviously its not a conversation otherwise). After speaking with midlevel litigators at each firm, my sense was that Boies associates were in court and first-chairing depos faster, and they had the opportunity to work on cases outside the financial industry. At Wachtell, the associates still received terrific mentorship and a high quality experience, but you are choosing mostly between securities lit and M&A (or white collar, but that's not really litigation), neither of which appealed to me. The reality, of course, is that it depends at either firm what kind of case you are working: a small team with one partner and two associates will generate a lot of interesting substantive work, whereas on a massive trial team the junior associates will get squeezed either way.

As for comp, yes, Wachtell's bonuses are consistently better, but I know associates at Boies whose comp has regularly beat Wachtell. So, while over time you'll likely get paid more at Wachtell, traditionally the difference has not been as large as Wachtell v. Cravath.

One other important factor for me was that Boies has offices in other parts of the country, including my home city where I may be moving in a couple years, and they are very flexible with offices switches.

Doesn't Watchtell give 100% bonuses though?

[DougEvans789]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

Doesn't Watchell require a clerkship for lit?

I have heard Wachtell doesn’t pay a clerkship bonus. Is that accurate?

[jbagelboy]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

Doesn't Watchell require a clerkship for lit?

No, it does not

[PeanutsNJam]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

Okay, let me rephrase. It is substantially easier to move from wachtell to Boies than it is to move from Boies to Wachtell. Better?

[TheProsecutor]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

While you're right, Wachtell does technically take laterals, it is ridiculously hard to lateral into Wachtell. First, you have to be an absolute stud at your prior firm, your law school grades have to be amazing, and you generally have to have gone to Yale (from what I understand most of the laterals tend to be from YLS) in order to lateral to WLRK. Second, even then, they take maybe 1-2 laterals per year (you can verify on NALP) and get thousands of amazing applicants. In short, it's pretty close to impossible to lateral to WLRK.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

Doesn't Watchell require a clerkship for lit?

I have heard Wachtell doesn’t pay a clerkship bonus. Is that accurate?

They don't, but they will prorate your end of the year bonus even if you start in say September. That usually ends up being substantially larger than the clerkship bonus.

[runinthefront]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

Okay, let me rephrase. It is substantially easier to move from wachtell to Boies than it is to move from Boies to Wachtell. Better?

Once again, you’re wrong. If you have the brass rings for Wachtell and choose to go to boies (or Cravath, or SC, or WC, or Munger, or KH, etc) it’s just as easy/difficult to lateral to wachtell as the Vice versa.

A second Cir/SDNY sears prize winner who chooses to go to Boies is no less desirable to Wachtell.

[runinthefront]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

While you're right, Wachtell does technically take laterals, it is ridiculously hard to lateral into Wachtell. First, you have to be an absolute stud at your prior firm, your law school grades have to be amazing, and you generally have to have gone to Yale (from what I understand most of the laterals tend to be from YLS) in order to lateral to WLRK. Second, even then, they take maybe 1-2 laterals per year (you can verify on NALP) and get thousands of amazing applicants. In short, it's pretty close to impossible to lateral to WLRK.

Literally none of this is true. It’s remarkable how much misinformation is spread on this thread.

[TheProsecutor]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

While you're right, Wachtell does technically take laterals, it is ridiculously hard to lateral into Wachtell. First, you have to be an absolute stud at your prior firm, your law school grades have to be amazing, and you generally have to have gone to Yale (from what I understand most of the laterals tend to be from YLS) in order to lateral to WLRK. Second, even then, they take maybe 1-2 laterals per year (you can verify on NALP) and get thousands of amazing applicants. In short, it's pretty close to impossible to lateral to WLRK.

Literally none of this is true. It’s remarkable how much misinformation is spread on this thread.

none of it is true? So it's easy to become a lateral at Wachtell? You don't have to be a stud at your prior firm? Most of their laterals haven't come from YLS? and they don't take very few laterals?

Go home, you're drunk.

[runinthefront]

What I’m saying is that (1) the most recent laterals have not all come from YLS, (2) some of the non-YLS laterals don’t even graduate in the top 10% of their class, and (3) stop trying to make it sound like a person who checks all the boxes for Wachtell but chooses to go elsewhere is suddenly undesirable when Wachtell is looking for associates. That’s not the case. You can go from Boies to W and from W to Boies. Obviously W hires less frequently because it’s a smaller firm w/ higher recruiting standards, but don’t act like they routinely turn their nose up at Cravath associates who otherwise meet their requirements (which is not all Yale and all tippy top of the class with main journal experience and feeder clerkships)

[runinthefront]

And, for the record, they took 3 “true laterals” in 2016 to go along with 11 post-clerkship laterals, of which only 5 had been previous summer associates. And that’s nalp—your source. So you should chill with the hyperbole

[TheProsecutor]

And, for the record, they took 3 “true laterals” in 2016 to go along with 11 post-clerkship laterals, of which only 5 had been previous summer associates. And that’s nalp—your source. So you should chill with the hyperbole

post clerkship is not really lateraling from a firm, is it? And in 2017, Wachtell took 3 true laterals and one already had a previous relationship with the firm as a summer. Go home, you're drunk.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. In a relationship, only in NYC. Looking for: substantive responsibility/work quality, exit options, etc. I realize I'm choosing to work in biglaw, so *tons* of free time is not really viable. But, if I can not be absolutely slaughtered, that would be nice I guess.

OK.

I was the original responder (and so haven't been in this weird WLRK v. Boies fight).

First, both are great firms so you really can't go wrong here.

Second, because you are already in a relationship and want good exit options, I'd probably recommend WLRK because you will likely get paid more. I had the choice between WLRK v. Boies DC and chose WLRK because it has better money. What I was told was that WLRK pays 100% bonus (so 390,000 for first years) and Boies lets you take 10% of your billing rate above...2400 (I think). So if you bill 2800 hours (about what you expect at WLRK) you get an extra 40 hours as a bonus (so, 40 *400= 16,000). The numbers might be off (maybe its a higher % or a lower hours threshold, etc).

At Boies you will likely work less and get paid less. You should ask lit associates at WLRK and Boies how many hours they worked (and Boies, what their bonus was) and you can weigh the hours difference and pay difference.

As a general matter, I gather that WLRK does more Delaware litigation and corporate-related litigation than Boies, but you'll do a lot at both and you have the power to shape your experience at both (what kind of exit options do you want- AUSA? In House?)

One weird point about WLRK- because they dont bill by the hour (you can google how they bill), people are sloppier about billing time because it doesn't go to the client, so people just guesstimate rather than trying to keep track of billing minute by minute.


Also- on laterals- WLRK takes many laterals but in the specialty groups. ECB, Tax, and Refi all take laterals- look at the associate profiles if you don't believe me.

Additionally, even corporate and lit takes laterals (Ed Lee lateralled as a corporate associate from CSM).

Point is: both great firms, and YOU need to do more research by talking to associates.

[Anonymous User]

OP - do you actually have an offer at either firm? (Did CBs for both recently and haven't heard back.)

[PeanutsNJam]

Wachtell then lateral to a lit boutique. Or wachtell, clerk at hyper competitive district/circuit, then go lit boutique.

Only go to boies if you plan on staying there.

You can go from wachtell to boies, but not the other way around.

This is not true; where'd you get this information from? Wachtell takes laterals. Two of my friends have lateraled from lower V10s, and they recently made someone partner who started at another firm.

Why is there such a huge mystique around Wachtell?

While you're right, Wachtell does technically take laterals, it is ridiculously hard to lateral into Wachtell. First, you have to be an absolute stud at your prior firm, your law school grades have to be amazing, and you generally have to have gone to Yale (from what I understand most of the laterals tend to be from YLS) in order to lateral to WLRK. Second, even then, they take maybe 1-2 laterals per year (you can verify on NALP) and get thousands of amazing applicants. In short, it's pretty close to impossible to lateral to WLRK.

Literally none of this is true. It’s remarkable how much misinformation is spread on this thread.

lol @ this super salty Boies associate posting ITT

[nls336]

late but just wanted to register -- my friend worked a BSF for a number of years, said there were times she was so stressed out she would just go home and cry and want to just like pull all of her hair out. the worst part was that she felt that 'they' -- meaning the management -- wanted to make it that stressful of an environment. i'm sure the stress levels are high anywhere you go but damn that's a hard thing to hear. she also said that she saw so many yale kids and harvard kids come to bsf and lateral out within their first two years. she felt that way specifically because a) there is absolutely NO support staff aside from a few paralegals and some HR people, and b) because she didn't really enjoy working with a lot of the partners. One partner she said told the paralegal to notify her if she left the office to evacuate before finishing a brief (in the very middle of Hurricane Sandy, mind you). Now, of course, I can't say much about Wachtell, and maybe my friend was exaggerating she is pretty hyperbolic but she is also a really, really hard worker and a very smart kid and still would regularly do over 90 hours a week for reference.

that being said, you honestly get trained like no other at BSF because you're actually DOING the litigation, and maybe DC is more chill?

[Anonymous User]

late but just wanted to register -- my friend worked a BSF for a number of years, said there were times she was so stressed out she would just go home and cry and want to just like pull all of her hair out. the worst part was that she felt that 'they' -- meaning the management -- wanted to make it that stressful of an environment. i'm sure the stress levels are high anywhere you go but damn that's a hard thing to hear. she also said that she saw so many yale kids and harvard kids come to bsf and lateral out within their first two years. she felt that way specifically because a) there is absolutely NO support staff aside from a few paralegals and some HR people, and b) because she didn't really enjoy working with a lot of the partners. One partner she said told the paralegal to notify her if she left the office to evacuate before finishing a brief (in the very middle of Hurricane Sandy, mind you). Now, of course, I can't say much about Wachtell, and maybe my friend was exaggerating she is pretty hyperbolic but she is also a really, really hard worker and a very smart kid and still would regularly do over 90 hours a week for reference.

that being said, you honestly get trained like no other at BSF because you're actually DOING the litigation, and maybe DC is more chill?

Just for comparison, Wachtell's support staff and resources are ridiculously good (compared to other top NY firms), and the people are great, there's absolutely no culture of intentionally inflicting stress. A lot of people are workaholics, but I've never seen/heard of anyone being actively vindictive. I think lockstep partner comp discourages a lot of the asshole rainmaker behavior. I'm corporate so I don't know much about BSF, just wanted to offer a counterpoint to the above. As long as you don't mind working long hours, WLRK is an amazing place to work.