Lateral in Philly - Salary Questions Forum

[Jemappes92]

Does anyone have an idea of how the salaries generally are at Philly firms that do not follow lockstep (i.e., the ones except Morgan Lewis and Dechert)? I'm considering a lateral move to Philly, and have been a bit perplexed at the lack of clarity of how the salaries work compared to the $190k lockstep firms (how much the salaries increase per associate year? bonus structure?).

Any thoughts, either from the Philly market directly or other similar markets, would be helpful!

[Anonymous User]

Salaries in general will be considerably lower than almost every major market. Big law in Philly pays 160 tops (with the exception, as you noted, of Morgan Lewis and Dechert). There are a handful of firms that New Yorkers would consider mid-sized but are really big law in Philly (such as Ballard, Pepper, Duane Morris). These firms generally pay 130 to 160. If you are looking outside of big law, then anything around $100k is pretty sweet. Raises won't be lockstep, but my friends' firms and the firm I am going to will raise about $5k per year. A good first-year salary in a small Philly firm is 80k, so adjust to experience accordingly.

[Anonymous User]

Salaries in general will be considerably lower than almost every major market. Big law in Philly pays 160 tops (with the exception, as you noted, of Morgan Lewis and Dechert). There are a handful of firms that New Yorkers would consider mid-sized but are really big law in Philly (such as Ballard, Pepper, Duane Morris). These firms generally pay 130 to 160. If you are looking outside of big law, then anything around $100k is pretty sweet. Raises won't be lockstep, but my friends' firms and the firm I am going to will raise about $5k per year. A good first-year salary in a small Philly firm is 80k, so adjust to experience accordingly.

Any insight on Cozen? Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed there but didn't get an offer. Very respectable firm that is constantly growing. I think they pay 150 for first years. Great if you want to do insurance litigation. The corporate group is also great but is relatively small.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed there but didn't get an offer. Very respectable firm that is constantly growing. I think they pay 150 for first years. Great if you want to do insurance litigation. The corporate group is also great but is relatively small.

Awesome, thanks for the input.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know Pepper's scale? Or any other info, ref to Pepper?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know Pepper's scale? Or any other info, ref to Pepper?

Pepper starts at 160 with about a 5k raise each year. It took them a year to react to the 180 NY raise, and then they only went up to 160 in Philly, so there's a chance that a year from now they'll go up a bit more.

[Anonymous User]

Second the above on Cozen. Great firm. Probably can expect ~$5k bumps, in line with what else is being said here.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't heard the greatest things about Pepper. Of course, it is a great firm and does great work, but the hours are less than ideal. The thing about Philly is that you won't ever be paid market (unless you are at Dechert or Morgan Lewis), so it often makes sense to go to a mid-sized firm with better hours. Most of the lawyers I know in Philly would rather make $120 at a smaller firm than work their ass off at Pepper for $140 (or whatever it is).

From my experience, Philly is a very unique market in that it's a very large city but also very insular. There are a lot of terrific firms (with great salaries) that do sophisticated work for clients in the PA, DE, NJ area. You just have to do your research. Although it sucks that Philly doesn't pay market, the good thing is that the pay cut isn't quite as bad when you leave big law.

[Anonymous User]

Pepper’s being way below pay-scale is baffling. Not only because Dechert/Morgan pays market but due to Philly's sky-high COL. PA’s property taxes are also unbelievably high (unless you use NJ as a comparison). Philly also hits you with city tax. I’ve heard good things about Pepper, but their pay and hours aren’t one of them.

[Anonymous User]

The “big law” Philly firms (not Dechart, ML) are so ridiculously under market it’s laughable. You’re looking at 150 to 165 starting plus no more than raises of 5 or 10 thousand each year. I ended up going to New York once I realized this. Also, if you’re a lateral from a firm outside of Am Law, some of the firms will try to bring you below their advertised first year salary. At some of these firms there are junior associates being paid less than the summer associates.

Also I know associates in Philly who are nearing partnership and are making less than third and fourth year associates under the new Milbank scale. Starting at 150 vs. 190 is close enough but the wage gap only increases each year while they’re getting 5 thousand dollar raises and their peers at other firms are getting 10, 15, 25.

[Anonymous User]

Ballard, Blank Rome, Duane Morris, and the other big philly firms are way below market (senior associates paid maybe 200k).

But, all of the aforementioned firms are really great places to work, from what I’ve heard (have friends at all of them).

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to add, through a Philly connection, Morgan Lewis is a very good firm to work for and pay wise they are a market leader. I don’t know jack about Dechart. Pepper was once up there but now lags behind the other firms that have raised their pay over the past couple of years.

What’s the word on Reed Smith? A friend was offered by Reed Smith but declined due to pay (I think they pay ok, just not market). Workwise my understanding is that Reed is your typical BL firm. There are numerous Philly MidLaw firms, 120 and tiny bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly surprised, in the Above the Law age we live in, that Duane Morris, Ballard, Cozen, Blank Rome, Pepper and the other non-market Philly firms get by with impunity regarding their black box/below market pay. It makes sense that big cities like ATL and Miami have different locksteps, but seems like wage depression for a major east coast city like Philly not to be at market. Even Houston and Dallas are at market even though wages go a lot further there.

[Anonymous User]

The pay all has to do with COL. No idea where the above poster got the idea that COL in Philly is "sky high." It is by far the cheapest city on the east coast. As someone who went to law school in Boston and previously lived in DC, when I moved to Philly I was utterly shocked at the COL. I am not just talking about apartments. Everything is cheaper. My big law friends in Boston are paying $2,500 for an apartment that would be $1,200 in Philly. That money adds up. But yes, the Philly tax does suck.

[Anonymous User]

^I agree Philly is cheaper than other cities. However, the lower cost of living doesn’t account for Philly firms paying senior associates $200,000 compared to $275,000 to $325,000 in other East Coast markets.

[Anonymous User]

Pepper’s being way below pay-scale is baffling. Not only because Dechert/Morgan pays market but due to Philly's sky-high COL. PA’s property taxes are also unbelievably high (unless you use NJ as a comparison). Philly also hits you with city tax. I’ve heard good things about Pepper, but their pay and hours aren’t one of them.

I advise anyone seriously considering Philly to stay away from Pepper. It's financially struggling--it hemorrhaged partners last year. In my group, there were no midlevels above 4th year that were home grown because they all saw the writing on the wall and left. We had a ton of laterals because the culture was bad, even by biglaw standards. Firm management is driving the firm into the ground. Avoid. Really. You've been warned.

I had a senior associate colleague who billed 2650 and got a bonus under $15K. Really. When people say under market, they mean it. Stubs at firms in other markets made more than that.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like Morgan Lewis didn’t even do a full match and only matched based on those who will exceed hours threshold. Philly... tough city.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve been interviewing heavily in Philly. I saw that DM and Pepper moved starting salary to 175k, with Pepper going even further and moving to lockstep up to 6th year (which is, in my opinion, a very reasonable, $255k ($50k below Cravath)). I’ve heard that the NY office is on the 180 scale for almost all class years.

Will the other firms follow suit? Money isn’t everything, but if I’m working long hours, I’d like to get compensated accordingly. I did well in school, but not well enough to land Dechert or ML, so I’m mainly focused on DM, Pepper, Blank Rome, Ballard, and Cozen).

Also, are the hours at Pepper markedly worse than the other philly biglaw firms? I have a friend at some of the other firms and they seem to have insane hours, so it’s kind of shocking that Pepper is known to have worse hours.

[legallybrunette93]

I’ve been interviewing heavily in Philly. I saw that DM and Pepper moved starting salary to 175k, with Pepper going even further and moving to lockstep up to 6th year (which is, in my opinion, a very reasonable, $255k ($50k below Cravath)). I’ve heard that the NY office is on the 180 scale for almost all class years.

Will the other firms follow suit? Money isn’t everything, but if I’m working long hours, I’d like to get compensated accordingly. I did well in school, but not well enough to land Dechert or ML, so I’m mainly focused on DM, Pepper, Blank Rome, Ballard, and Cozen).

Also, are the hours at Pepper markedly worse than the other philly biglaw firms? I have a friend at some of the other firms and they seem to have insane hours, so it’s kind of shocking that Pepper is known to have worse hours.

I don't know about other firms following suit re raises, but Pepper's hours are really group dependent. There's one rainmaker partner that does health sciences deal work who's known to expect associates to pull really long/late hours. I think there's one or two general corporate/M&A partners that also expect long hours, but aren't known for being as bad. My litigation friends generally aren't killing themselves with hours. So it's really dependent on what group you're in and which partners you work for, which I get the sense is true at every firm.

[strawberrieee]

What is the hour difference between ML/Dechert vs Pepper/DM/Ballard? Does that compensate for the salary difference?