DA positions out of HYS Forum

[nasra234]

I'm presently trying to assess my chances at getting a job as a prosecutor after law school, and also I'm thinking about how I should proceed from now in terms of actually applying and interview for these jobs. I'm at HYS, will be finishing up in a year, but my grades are not the best (think straight Ps). Is there any useful insight anyone here can give me with respect to my standing? I should also add that I am completely geographically flexible, although I would like to be somewhere on the east coast.

[objctnyrhnr]

I'm presently trying to assess my chances at getting a job as a prosecutor after law school, and also I'm thinking about how I should proceed from now in terms of actually applying and interview for these jobs. I'm at HYS, will be finishing up in a year, but my grades are not the best (think straight Ps). Is there any useful insight anyone here can give me with respect to my standing? I should also add that I am completely geographically flexible, although I would like to be somewhere on the east coast.

You’re in great shape. Do an internship if you have not already. One piece of advice I would add (that might be a bit counter intuitive) is to clerk. Believe it or not, it’ll make you way more attractive to das offices and it’ll help you a lot with a subsequent lateral move, particularly if it’s a federal clerkship. Don’t worry about the grades. Daos don’t care about grades, generally speaking, and, to the extent they might, your school is good enough that you have the academic box checked regardless.

[SomewhatLearnedHand]

Ya, do you know the number of HYS applicants DA offices get? Few and far between. Your straight p's are in no way going to hold you back. At that point they'll be interested to see if you have any trial work experience through moot court, internships, etc that is applicable to the position.

[Wild Card]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

[encore1101]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

[nasra234]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

Thanks for sharing. But would you say that school pedigree is unimportant across the board, or is this just a personal idiosyncrasy? Obviously you want the best fit, but it seems extraordinary that you'd look at someone from, say, St John's the same way that you'd look at someone from Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an HYS grad who applied earlier in my career for DA positions in a non-NY, competitive market. I also attended another Ivy school for a different degree and have district and circuit clerkships in circuits viewed as extremely competitive. I mention that not to brag but to explain how my resume was received by DA's offices. They were intrigued by the resume and noted it was a very unusual one for them to receive; I had no problem getting interviews. But their questions, directed both to me and my references, indicated that they saw this background as more potential liability than asset for several reasons:
1. Most importantly, would a jury be able to relate to me and would I know how to communicate with them as opposed to an ivory tower audience?
2. Given the clerkships, which they assumed meant both that I was a good/experienced writer and enjoyed writing, could I live with a practice that de-emphasized writing and resorted to form (and often poorly written) briefs, or would I be frustrated and/or spend too much time on writing?
3. Would I enjoy a practice that was (comparatively) intellectually simple, especially in the early years, and more focused on courtroom performance and presentation to a less academic audience?

I think these were the right questions for them to ask. And I did feel like I got a fair hearing - and ended up spending some time at a DA's office during my career. Frankly, the answers to those very questions (at least #2-3) are the reasons that a DA career is not for me in the long term. But I loved the trial experience and opportunity to handle my own cases soup to nuts.

The bottom line: I don't think you should expect an HYS degree to be a clear advantage in applying for DA positions. Nor should it be. It's not the most relevant credential. But you should expect you'll receive a fair shot at a position, and I think it's fair to expect that all Ps won't hold you back if you come off as committed to a trial practice/public service and someone who will be viewed as likable, trustworthy, and easy-to-understand by a jury in your county/district.

[nixy]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

Thanks for sharing. But would you say that school pedigree is unimportant across the board, or is this just a personal idiosyncrasy? Obviously you want the best fit, but it seems extraordinary that you'd look at someone from, say, St John's the same way that you'd look at someone from Harvard.

Like he said, a lot of DA’s offices aren’t interested in grades, and getting into Harvard primarily means you had good grades. Other criteria can be more important when evaluating candidates.

(Essentially scooped with much more authority by the post above.)

[encore1101]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

Thanks for sharing. But would you say that school pedigree is unimportant across the board, or is this just a personal idiosyncrasy? Obviously you want the best fit, but it seems extraordinary that you'd look at someone from, say, St John's the same way that you'd look at someone from Harvard.

I'd say, at best, a person from HYS may get a soft bump for going to HYS, but it is by no means guaranteed. Manhattan DA might be a different beast, but keep in mind that most of the upper management of the DA's offices came from local schools like St. John's. While it is obviously impressive if a candidate came from a T14, that fact alone wouldn't make DA offices "jump at the opportunity" to extend an offer. DA's offices don't have a client problem -- we have no need to brag that our ADAs come from T14 schools, for example. The "clients," such as they were, will keep rolling in regardless.

This may sound ignorant, but what does going to Harvard tell me about you? From my understanding of the law school admissions process, it tells me that you got good grades in undergrad and you did well on your LSATs. Really good grades and really high LSAT scores, to be fair, but how does that translate into marketable skills for an ADA? You're a hard worker, that much is undeniable. But there are plenty of hard workers that go to local TTTs. Maybe you're intelligent. But all the intelligence in the world won't help if you're not persuasive to a judge (who, in all likelihood, also attended a local TTT) and/or a jury.

There's other considerations as well. No office wants to feel like the "safety" job that you work at just because you didn't land a more prestigious biglaw/bigfed job, especially when there's applicants who would be earnestly excited about working at the DA's office. As unreasonable as it may be, if the DA's office gets the impression that you're applying just so you have a parachute, it won't hesitate to cut you. In a similar vein, although the DA's office imposes a three year commitment, there really is no punishment if you break it, so I think offices are wary of hiring someone from HYS because they could probably find a "better" (more pay and/or less hours) job easily.

Again, being admitted into HYS is very impressive and I'm not trying to belittle that achievement. Lord knows they're much better than the school I went to. But when it comes to the qualities that make a good ADA, I'm not entirely sure what makes a HYS applicant stand out over a local TTT applicant.

[Anonymous User]

Former here ADA from one of the nations 5 largest offices (e.g. NYC/Chicago/LA/Miami).

I think your Harvard degree will definitely help you in securing a job post graduation. Most importantly, though, will be your law school experiences (prior internships at DA offices help) and your ability to express interest in working as a prosecutor. Have good answers to hypotheticals that *will* be asked during interviews.

Important to note, though, that even from these offices most people go into insurance defense after working for a few years or stay here for life. Very, very few move onto the coveted “next step” of being an AUSA.

[encore1101]

I hinted at this in my last post, but to elaborate and follow-up with what one of the anonymous posters said, it will be several years before your hardwork/intelligence that got you admitted into HYS in the first place will bear fruit. By the time you're in a bureau where whatever attributes got you into HYS have a chance to shine, you're done with your 3 year commitment and you can find a better job. DA's offices don't want to take that risk of someone who will "just" do three and leave.

[Wild Card]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

Thanks for sharing. But would you say that school pedigree is unimportant across the board, or is this just a personal idiosyncrasy? Obviously you want the best fit, but it seems extraordinary that you'd look at someone from, say, St John's the same way that you'd look at someone from Harvard.

I'm sorry, I was generalizing. What I said applies more to Queens and the Bronx. Manhattan is certainly selective, and Brooklyn may be becoming more selective. IDK about Staten Island.

http://bronxda.nyc.gov/downloads/pdf/pr ... 20ADAs.pdf
http://www.queensda.org/newpressrelease ... _class.pdf
http://www.queensda.org/newpressrelease ... _class.pdf

[Anonymous User]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

Thanks for sharing. But would you say that school pedigree is unimportant across the board, or is this just a personal idiosyncrasy? Obviously you want the best fit, but it seems extraordinary that you'd look at someone from, say, St John's the same way that you'd look at someone from Harvard.

I'm sorry, I was generalizing. What I said applies more to Queens and the Bronx. Manhattan is certainly selective, and Brooklyn may be becoming more selective. IDK about Staten Island.

http://bronxda.nyc.gov/downloads/pdf/pr ... 20ADAs.pdf
http://www.queensda.org/newpressrelease ... _class.pdf
http://www.queensda.org/newpressrelease ... _class.pdf

Nothing about those indicate that those offices would jump at the opportunity to hire OP.

[Anonymous User]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

What is the extent of training that new DAs receive? Is it the same whether you're fresh out of law school or have been practicing at a firm for a while?

[encore1101]

The NYC DA's offices hire almost exclusively from the local TTTs. They would jump at the opportunity to have you on board.

That hasn't been my experience as an NYC DA prosecutor who's interviewed applicants from local TTTs and ranked schools. I look at applicants the same regardless of what school they're from -- can this person do well in court? Will a jury, made up of varying levels of education and backgrounds, respond to this person? Can I picture myself working with this person in a 8 hour intake shift?

Anecdotally, I non-rec'ed an applicant graduating from Columbia this year while recommending a graduate from a local TTT because the latter was just a better fit for the office.

What is the extent of training that new DAs receive? Is it the same whether you're fresh out of law school or have been practicing at a firm for a while?

In my office at least, new ADAs received one month of training, followed by an additional hour or so every week for about 3 months. My class had a former clerk and former trial attorney with a different city agency, and they underwent the same training. In the most recent hiring class, someone I knew from law school who'd been in private practice for several years also underwent first-year training.

I know some lateral hires into Appeals did not have to go through the first-year training.

[Anonymous User]

Columbia grad here who had a horrible application cycle with DA's offices. I applied to ~35 offices and ended up with 2 offers in mid-size cities (and 1 was for a one-year clerk position that had the potential to convert to full-time). I ended up accepting a state government job that I'm really happy with, but it was a miserable slog of an application cycle.

My resume was all government stuff with 2 internships at NYC DA offices. My grades were quite good (around top-third) and I took all the core crim classes. Granted, there were a couple where I had bad/mediocre interviews. Still, I moved on to the next round twice when I thought I had a less than stellar interview.

It's hard to tell what they're looking for, or how you'll click with particular interviewers. I honestly felt like there was an inverse correlation to how well I performed in interviews and whether or not I moved on/got an offer.

This may be atypical. Maybe I had a glaring typo on my resume, or one of my references decided to burn me. Regardless: apply broadly and don't take anything for granted.

[nasra234]

Columbia grad here who had a horrible application cycle with DA's offices. I applied to ~35 offices and ended up with 2 offers in mid-size cities (and 1 was for a one-year clerk position that had the potential to convert to full-time). I ended up accepting a state government job that I'm really happy with, but it was a miserable slog of an application cycle.

My resume was all government stuff with 2 internships at NYC DA offices. My grades were quite good (around top-third) and I took all the core crim classes. Granted, there were a couple where I had bad/mediocre interviews. Still, I moved on to the next round twice when I thought I had a less than stellar interview.

It's hard to tell what they're looking for, or how you'll click with particular interviewers. I honestly felt like there was an inverse correlation to how well I performed in interviews and whether or not I moved on/got an offer.

This may be atypical. Maybe I had a glaring typo on my resume, or one of my references decided to burn me. Regardless: apply broadly and don't take anything for granted.

Thanks for responding. If you don't mind me asking, were you interviewing during a particularly competitive cycle, say, in 2009-2010?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for responding. If you don't mind me asking, were you interviewing during a particularly competitive cycle, say, in 2009-2010?

Not especially, sometime in last 3 years.

[Anonymous User]

HYS grad here. Spent 3-5 years at a non-NYC DA’s office after law school. Currently an AUSA. As a 3L, I applied to most of the major east coast offices and ended up with a number of final round interviews/offers.

My advice: If you want to be a prosecutor, you really need to get experience while you’re in law school. Intern at DA’s offices during your summers. Get experience in court. I did both summers at prosecutors offices, and an externship at a local DA office during 3L. By the time I was interviewing as a 3L, I had already tried a handful of cases and handled a bunch of suppression hearings.

As an HYS student, your interviewers will assume you’re bright and a good writer. But you have to show them that you can handle yourself in court with a massive docket of cases; that you can work with angry/uncooperative cops and witnesses; and that you won’t be a disaster in front of a jury.

If you can combine prosecution experience with an HYS resume, you’ll do fine.

[Anonymous User]

Having spent close to 2 years in an NYC DA's office, I would tell you that hiring is basically a crapshoot. There are people I can't believe got past the screening stage, and there are great people I knew from law school/internships that got rejected in the early interview stages.

I will say, there seems to be a strong bias towards "Type A" kinds of people. I put that in quotation marks because a lot of them aren't actually Type A in terms of performance, they just act like it when they interact with people. You'd think graduating from a 4th-tier law school would give away the game, but clearly it doesn't.

For better or for worse, "acting like a prosecutor" during interviews will get you a lot further than a great resume. Personally, I think that's a stupid way to hire (and makes the office a lousy environment to work in), but nobody asked me.

[Anonymous User]

HYS grad here. Spent 3-5 years at a non-NYC DA’s office after law school. Currently an AUSA. As a 3L, I applied to most of the major east coast offices and ended up with a number of final round interviews/offers.

My advice: If you want to be a prosecutor, you really need to get experience while you’re in law school. Intern at DA’s offices during your summers. Get experience in court. I did both summers at prosecutors offices, and an externship at a local DA office during 3L. By the time I was interviewing as a 3L, I had already tried a handful of cases and handled a bunch of suppression hearings.

As an HYS student, your interviewers will assume you’re bright and a good writer. But you have to show them that you can handle yourself in court with a massive docket of cases; that you can work with angry/uncooperative cops and witnesses; and that you won’t be a disaster in front of a jury.

If you can combine prosecution experience with an HYS resume, you’ll do fine.

How the hell do you get prosecution experience? How do you demonstrate that you can handle being a DA without having had that experience? What is it like starting out as a DA without experience? I've been considering being a DA but am scared shitless that I'll screw up my first few cases and get the axe.

[Anonymous User]

HYS grad here. Spent 3-5 years at a non-NYC DA’s office after law school. Currently an AUSA. As a 3L, I applied to most of the major east coast offices and ended up with a number of final round interviews/offers.

My advice: If you want to be a prosecutor, you really need to get experience while you’re in law school. Intern at DA’s offices during your summers. Get experience in court. I did both summers at prosecutors offices, and an externship at a local DA office during 3L. By the time I was interviewing as a 3L, I had already tried a handful of cases and handled a bunch of suppression hearings.

As an HYS student, your interviewers will assume you’re bright and a good writer. But you have to show them that you can handle yourself in court with a massive docket of cases; that you can work with angry/uncooperative cops and witnesses; and that you won’t be a disaster in front of a jury.

If you can combine prosecution experience with an HYS resume, you’ll do fine.

How the hell do you get prosecution experience? How do you demonstrate that you can handle being a DA without having had that experience? What is it like starting out as a DA without experience? I've been considering being a DA but am scared shitless that I'll screw up my first few cases and get the axe.

internships and externships

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, many/most states have a certification process whereby law students at a certain point (I think after 2L usually) can get certified to appear in court by themselves (state courts). So people will handle actual trials and related stuff as interns, or in clinics.

[Anonymous User]

HYS grad here. Spent 3-5 years at a non-NYC DA’s office after law school. Currently an AUSA. As a 3L, I applied to most of the major east coast offices and ended up with a number of final round interviews/offers.

My advice: If you want to be a prosecutor, you really need to get experience while you’re in law school. Intern at DA’s offices during your summers. Get experience in court. I did both summers at prosecutors offices, and an externship at a local DA office during 3L. By the time I was interviewing as a 3L, I had already tried a handful of cases and handled a bunch of suppression hearings.

As an HYS student, your interviewers will assume you’re bright and a good writer. But you have to show them that you can handle yourself in court with a massive docket of cases; that you can work with angry/uncooperative cops and witnesses; and that you won’t be a disaster in front of a jury.

If you can combine prosecution experience with an HYS resume, you’ll do fine.

How the hell do you get prosecution experience? How do you demonstrate that you can handle being a DA without having had that experience? What is it like starting out as a DA without experience? I've been considering being a DA but am scared shitless that I'll screw up my first few cases and get the axe.

A lot of states allow 2Ls and 3Ls to appear in court under the supervision of a licensed attorney. So DA’s offices in those states will often let their interns handle low level misdemeanors in court. I did stuff like drug possession, DUI, prostitution, and traffic tickets. It was awesome experience and it gave me great anecdotes to talk about in interviews.

And I don’t know of any DA’s offices that will get mad at you for losing a case, especially if you’re a new prosecutor handling misdemeanors. I think I lost my first 4 or 5 jury trials before getting a guilty. Losing makes you better. And it makes you less afraid to go to trial. Once you’ve lost enough cases and done enough dumb things in court (like forgetting to establish jurisdiction or identify the defendant), you just don’t get that scared about losing anymore.

I’ve run into a few people who bragged about having never lost a case. It just makes me roll my eyes. Those are usually the people who are afraid to go to trial.

In my days as a state prosecutor, we lost a lot. After a loss, you would go back to the office and everybody would pat you on the back for fighting the good fight. And then they’d take you out for a beer.

[encore1101]

HYS grad here. Spent 3-5 years at a non-NYC DA’s office after law school. Currently an AUSA. As a 3L, I applied to most of the major east coast offices and ended up with a number of final round interviews/offers.

My advice: If you want to be a prosecutor, you really need to get experience while you’re in law school. Intern at DA’s offices during your summers. Get experience in court. I did both summers at prosecutors offices, and an externship at a local DA office during 3L. By the time I was interviewing as a 3L, I had already tried a handful of cases and handled a bunch of suppression hearings.

As an HYS student, your interviewers will assume you’re bright and a good writer. But you have to show them that you can handle yourself in court with a massive docket of cases; that you can work with angry/uncooperative cops and witnesses; and that you won’t be a disaster in front of a jury.

If you can combine prosecution experience with an HYS resume, you’ll do fine.

How the hell do you get prosecution experience? How do you demonstrate that you can handle being a DA without having had that experience? What is it like starting out as a DA without experience? I've been considering being a DA but am scared shitless that I'll screw up my first few cases and get the axe.

Like others have said, externships and internships are the easiest ways to get experience.

Beyond that, there's a few different responses to your concerns. First, most ADAs start out doing a rotation between Intake/ECAB, Arraignments, and Criminal Court. Intake/ECAB will help get you comfortable speaking with police officers and witnesses, figuring out what details you need to know for your case, etc. Arraignments will get you used to speaking in court and making arguments, i.e. bail conditions. Criminal Court gets you comfortable speaking in court, via hearings, motions in limine, etc.

It will be months from when you start to when you get your first trial. By that time, you'll have plenty of in-court experience.

And anybody who's in a position to fire you has lost a case more significant than whatever misdemeanor case you're worried about losing. Guaranteed. The only way you'll get fired in your first few years is if you fail the bar a few times in a row, or you commit some huge ethical violation, like forging police paperwork.

just to put it into perspective, of the cases that go to trial, Bronx only has a 49% conviction rate (src: https://nypost.com/2017/07/22/the-bronx ... -the-city/)