you ever think about killing yourself? Forum

[denmarkwahlberg]

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if this is serious, but if so, go talk to someone. There's no shame in reaching out. People care about your well-being (even complete strangers).

[Anonymous User]

I was there about a month ago. Would stand at the edge of the subway platform at 1130 pm every night for a week straight and go back and forth about jumping. Would look up at the clock and say 2 minutes to this shit is over. Ultimately couldn’t do it.

I know it sounds cliche but things do get better. Talk to someone. I’d be happy to put up a throwaway email in a comment. My family saved me. My cats saved me. And biglaw still freaking sucks, but I’ve come to grips with it not being the end all. Whatever it is - debt, a shitty partner, unemployment - will be nothing when you think back on your life. Hang in there and please post on here if you need someone to talk to.

[Anonymous User]

I was there about a month ago. Would stand at the edge of the subway platform at 1130 pm every night for a week straight and go back and forth about jumping. Would look up at the clock and say 2 minutes to this shit is over. Ultimately couldn’t do it.

I know it sounds cliche but things do get better. Talk to someone. I’d be happy to put up a throwaway email in a comment. My family saved me. My cats saved me. And biglaw still freaking sucks, but I’ve come to grips with it not being the end all. Whatever it is - debt, a shitty partner, unemployment - will be nothing when you think back on your life. Hang in there and please post on here if you need someone to talk to.

Don't' worry you're not the only one.

"Quinn Emanuel Partner Suffers From Depression and He Wants Everyone to Know. My name is Joe Milowic. I am a partner at Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan. And I suffer from depression. A prominent Johns Hopkins study found that lawyers are more likely to suffer from depression than any other profession. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that lawyers have higher rates of suicide than all but three professions (dentists, pharmacists and doctors). So, naturally, the legal profession is buzzing about what to do about this serious problem; well, not quite. To say there is a “stigma” associated with discussing mental illness in the legal profession, where mental acumen directly correlates with your livelihood, is an understatement." https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2 ... e-to-know/

Lauren Giblin, a former lawyer turned coach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UtxsKi3uVc

The O'Melveny blog in the 200k thread. "I had made a huge mistake by complaining. I tried to stay positive and fit in, but apprehension lingered as I wondered what they would do next. My office was on the floor where they tell employers how to legally get rid of complaining employees, and where they defend schools accused of allowing rape and other sexual misconduct. Almost every day I overheard such machinations against victims. Sometimes I would wake up in the middle of the night with feelings of dread and panic, waiting it out to avoid an expensive trip to the emergency room. Curious for another perspective, I spent thousands of dollars on therapy, where I was constantly told that the only solution was to leave that environment. I didn't quit though. I sensed this wouldn't go anywhere good, but felt I needed to sacrifice and persist like all victims." http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... ation.html

The Wilson Sonsini Partner who OD'd. "I thought maybe the stress of his job as a lawyer had finally gotten to him, or that he was bipolar. He had been working more than 60 hours a week for 20 years, ever since he started law school and worked his way into a partnership in the intellectual property practice of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, a prominent law firm based in Silicon Valley. . . . In my shock, I didn’t see the half-filled syringes on the bathroom sink, or the spoon, lighter and crushed pills. I didn’t see the bag of white powder, or the tourniquet, or the other lighter next to the bed. The police report from that day noted several safes around the bedroom, all of them open and spilling out translucent orange pill bottles." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/busi ... ealth.html

[Anonymous User]

I sometimes think “fuck this stress would subside if I could just fucking die.” It never happened before but then I bought an expensive ass house and got staffed on a crazy case with a tough partner. Now I get passive aggressive emails at all hours and I have to pay a huge mortgage every month. I’m working on selling the house (only 6 months after buying it) and transitioning to other partners to see if shit improves. If not I’m leaving the job. Fuck ruining my life and the lives of my family because my boss sucks. Life is too short.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know your personal problems, and I do not know the stress conditions you are under. I do know this, our lives are much bigger than this legal profession shit. DO NOT LET THIS PROFESSION CONTROL YOU, YOU CONTROL IT. YOU CONTROL YOUR DESTINY, YOU HAVE A PURPOSE. If you are truly serious, please reach out to someone, anyone. Remember God loves you, stay bless.

[worklifewhat]

I’ve vaguely thought about it from time to time—more like the feeling that I would finally be at peace if I were dead and didn’t have to deal with all of this shit. But then I think about all that I have to live for (I have two kiddos) and realize that I could be living paycheck to paycheck and still be happy. In fact, I might be even happier if I could just get outside of the combustion chamber of law. It’s me inside my own head that gets me feeling like maybe death would be easier. In reality, I know that my life is worth more than whatever is thrown at me. The memories that have yet to be made, the experiences that have yet to be experienced, they’re all far more important than any of this shit. So, I’ve kind of thought about it but would never actually do anything about those thoughts.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. It's worse on some days than others. I made a post about a month or two ago on here about looking for another job so soon after starting my current one. I'm still there and hasn't gotten too much better. However, I've changed my perspective and it's helped tremendously. I take out all my aggression/fear/anxiety and put it to use with exercising - specifically, boxing. I feel untouchable after I box in the morning, and I really don't have a negative thought the rest of the day.

As for my perspective toward my job, what I come back to is asking myself, "what's the worst thing they could do to me? Fire me." It wouldn't be ideal, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and would ultimately get me out of an environment that I dislike.

To the OP: find your outlet, whatever it is. Some passion outside of this profession. Doesn't have to be boxing. It can be another form of exercise, cooking a new dish, picking up an instrument and taking lessons, etc. And, as is true for me, the worst that can happen is you get fired (unless you're a Mob attorney). The world will keep spinning, the sun will come up, you'll look for another job and your life will move on. Don't rob yourself of that opportunity.

[sprintin23]

I am going to need you to step back from that ledge, my friend. Seriously, I If were you, I would speak with a professional or anyone asap. The stress of big law or any profession is not worth your life, fam. There are plenty of other positions within this profession that you can do and be happy with. I really hope you find peace with whatever you are doing and realize there is way much more to life than slaving for the almighty green. Godspeed.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, I've thought about it but I doubt that I would ever or could ever do it. I honestly thought it was normal to think about suicide, but maybe it's not? Like at what point does it become a serious problem rather than just an intellectual exercise to think about your agency over your own mortality?

I have no reason to be unhappy and every reason to be thankful. I've gotten near-perfect grades, am summering at one of the most elite law firms in the country, won't have much debt after law school...and yet here I am wondering if now that I'm on the treadmill if I can ever get off it.

And if I'm having an existential crisis as a summer what will it be like as an associate?

[whats an updog]

If you think about this, I strongly urge you to see someone. Getting help isn't weak and it isn't only for other people. Everyone can use the help of someone trained to help others with emotional and psychological well-being. Even if the first therapist you see isn't a fit, don't give up on it.

The hardest part is making the first appointment. It's not awkward and your insurance likely will cover most of it. Just give it a try.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve been planning on doing it if I can’t find a decent legal or other professional job after graduating from a T10 and ivy undergrad (struckout at oci). But sounds from this thread the grass isn’t even greener if that happens so maybe I just don’t have anything to look forward to. Am already seeing a therapist but they really don’t understand how depressing every day is when you know you might end up being a barista or uber driver even though you attended a “prestigious” school to enter a “prestigious” profession and how awful it is to be constantly surrounded by successful people. Seems like everyone, including my therapist, just assumes I’ll be fine because of my education but I know it’s not true. I often think I’d rather just stop living than live with the embarrassment of being a failure even though I’ve had every advantage to succeed.

[Anonymous User]

Please seek help ASAP. Life is very precious and you are worth so much/ are so much more than the type of job you have, where you go to school, the things you own.

[Anonymous User]

It crosses my mind too. DJ clerk in flyover country looking for a job after clerkship ends in August. Have probably sent out maybe 300+ applications to Biglaw, mid-law, federal judges, and USAO's (I've been out 3-4 years) and have nothing. I thought it would have been easier with the clerkship but it hasn't and the constant rejection and feelings of not being good enough (middling grades from a T-2) have become overwhelming.

[Anonymous User]

The thing is, none of this shit matters. Biglaw doesn’t matter, money doesn’t matter, none of this shit matters. What matters is the time you spend with the people you love. The memories, the experiences, the things that truly enrich your life. I think if we could all get out of our heads about this fucked up profession and this narrow view of success, we would be content with so much less. Who gives a shit about what anyone else thinks? I’d like to believe that we live our lives for more than just what others think of us. Worst case scenario: you get fired from your job or have to take a job that you think is beneath you. Well, hopefully that gives you more time to do the things that are truly important. Move somewhere affordable, find a job that pays the bills, and start thinking differently. Chasing someone else’s definition of success (or what we’ve been conditioned to believe success means) is going to leave you feeling empty and depressed. I’d be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 people would rather not do the “presitigious” job but only do so because they can’t let go of this idea that prestige, money, and all that jazz are the only true metric of success. It’s not. If I get fired from biglaw and struggle to find a new job, I’ll just go move somewhere super cheap and find a job that pays enough. I don’t need to live in excess. Will my self-worth take a hit? Absolutely. But I will bounce back and I 100% believe that some good might actually come of that because I don’t have the courage to listen to the voice inside of me that says I deserve better than this fucked up profession.

[Npret]

The depressing effect of debt is one of the many reasons I push back against taking on massive debt to be a lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

Earlier this year, I was having similar thoughts. Everything just felt hopeless. I had worked so hard to get what I thought was my dream job. Spoiler alert - big law (or law generally) is not for everyone and will exacerbate existing mental health issues. It took finally seeing a therapist and getting onto anti-depressants to realize that it is healthy to set reasonable boundaries and it is not a failure to acknowledge that this is not the life you want. Hope things get better - just know you’re not alone.

[northwood]

Hi all:

Please remember that you are never alone, that if all else, you have this site to use. Someone will listen, someone will respond ( with an appropriate response) and someone will care.

[Anonymous User]

Hi OP. I know it doesn't feel like it, but this is temporary. You can feel happy again and things will get better. I know it's probably hard to see (which is okay!), but you do have options. I echo everyone who suggested talking to someone. You'd be surprised; pretty much everyone is in therapy these days! It's okay to not like the first person you talk to... sometimes it takes awhile to find a therapist that clicks.

Remember, you have people in your life who care about you. We are strangers on the internet and we care about you. Check in and let us know how you're doing.

[Anonymous User]

The best piece of advice I can give you is not to think about the "what ifs" or anything that isn't under your direct control. Put in the work and continue to do that until you get your desired outcome. I was in an extremely bad place during 2L, with all hope of legal employment whithering away. Literally, the same day before I landed my summer gig, I made a hard promise with myself that no matter what happened I would continue on. You have to make that promise with yourself too. And when I say that I was in a bad place- I truly was. Before I graduated, I landed multiple offers for even better firms and I'm in big law now. There are hard days, but the thing is- I control everything. Work isn't like school. While there is much more uncharted territory, I am able to firmly carve out the path that I want for myself. Persistence is absolutely key, along with focusing on what's in front of you. Do not give up- ever.

[glitched]

I’ve been planning on doing it if I can’t find a decent legal or other professional job after graduating from a T10 and ivy undergrad (struckout at oci). But sounds from this thread the grass isn’t even greener if that happens so maybe I just don’t have anything to look forward to. Am already seeing a therapist but they really don’t understand how depressing every day is when you know you might end up being a barista or uber driver even though you attended a “prestigious” school to enter a “prestigious” profession and how awful it is to be constantly surrounded by successful people. Seems like everyone, including my therapist, just assumes I’ll be fine because of my education but I know it’s not true. I often think I’d rather just stop living than live with the embarrassment of being a failure even though I’ve had every advantage to succeed.

As someone who also struck out from OCI (T6, Berkeley undergrad, STEM degree), I feel your pain for sure. And I also walked the line you're walking now. But your job, your school, your grades - none of that defines you. Those are your characteristics, not your character. This is a blip in your overall story, a conflict that you will overcome. And this is hard to accept, but there's no embarrassment for failure. Yes it's natural to feel shame, but that too will pass. Think about all your favorite books and movies - the best stories come from characters that meet difficult hardships, usually caused by their own mistakes. You don't even have to look to fiction actually, just look at history - from Lincoln to Steve Jobs to Colonel Sanders (yes the KFC guy) - so many people have failed and moved on.

I used to wonder what my friends back home would think if I came back from law school without a job. But as I've gotten older, I realized that my friends don't really care about that kind of thing. When I think about my friends, I don't think about their jobs, I think about their characters - like all the times we've supported each other through the years. Anyway - if you, or anyone else here, needs someone to talk to, feel free to PM me.

[Anonymous User]

Hey bud,

I've been in your boat--at least, I've been close to it. Keeping in mind that you may be struggling with anxiety and/or depression (like me), you should know that you have some options. Are you working with someone who doesn't respect you as a human being? If so, you should confront them. And if confronting them doesn't work, then let a partner know how you're feeling.

At a certain point last year, I realized that the fifth-year or whatever giving me assignments every day at 7 PM out of the blue and then demanding completion by 12 was an outlier, even in Biglaw. After weeks and weeks of having to drop all plans at 10 PM on Saturdays and Sundays with no notice period--of effectively living a life tethered to within 20 minutes of a computer--I'd had enough. I secured another job and spoke to a partner, basically conveying to the partner that I couldn't work with this guy anymore.

You may be working with an abusive associate, partner/supervisor. But the work isn't worth your health. Go speak with them and let them know that you're feeling burned out and need a bit more time. The worst case scenario if that happens (you being fired -- extremely unlikely) is an infinitely better scenario than your killing yourself.

Biglaw can feel like a trapdoor, but it's not. The values of so many of these people are utterly horrible. Don't let their value judgments affect how you see yourself. Keep your head up. Your life is too important.

[Anonymous User]

Only a rising 3L SA in BOS but I can say I did. For purposes of this story I'll mention that I am a male because I think the male stigma on emotion doesn't help.

Very frequently in middle school through undergrad (Chem Eng. Major) I thought about it. My brother is a physician and I had only a few close friends at least I had hoped they were but even now am not really sure. Any time I was compared to my brother and also had to see him in a short span it drove me insane. We are VERY close and he only knows very recently that I had any problems at all (not quite sure he still knows the severity). I was driving home from work one day senior year of college on a day I only worked and didn't have class and I drove over a small bridge that crosses a river that ran through my undergrad town. For a second all I could think about was jerking the wheel and going in and calling it a life. I cried hysterically for the rest of the day with my room door closed under the covers. Every now and then I still think back to that day.

Law school has, much to my surprise, made it a little better. I'm used to working long hours. My year off I worked in production and would work 50-70 hours a week, often not seeing the sun for weeks because I would be on night shift and extreme hours. Sure, I'll work the same hours, but because of law school I have moved away from all the things that caused my depression, I've met the most lovely lady only recently, and any long hours I work I can see the outside and windows. Not only that, but I've met friends that I can rely on.

This is a long-winded way of saying that it can get worse before it gets better, but it can get better. I never sought treatment, and VERY rarely things creep up again but not nearly as heavy or long-lasting as before. Find a way to get away from stimuli that depress you, and what I learned is never drink so much alcohol you can't drive unless you're absolutely sure you're in good company. I really only drink and get drunk when I'm with my gf, or my absolute closest friends, otherwise it's 1 or 2 and I'm out because for me, when I'm not completely invested in my environment and I've been drinking, my mind wanders off into bad places. I've tested that theory and any time I can think of where I drank too much and was not in a very comfortable situation I would feel depressed. I hope this helps.

[Bla Bla Bla Blah]

Yes. It's worse on some days than others. I made a post about a month or two ago on here about looking for another job so soon after starting my current one. I'm still there and hasn't gotten too much better. However, I've changed my perspective and it's helped tremendously. I take out all my aggression/fear/anxiety and put it to use with exercising - specifically, boxing. I feel untouchable after I box in the morning, and I really don't have a negative thought the rest of the day.

As for my perspective toward my job, what I come back to is asking myself, "what's the worst thing they could do to me? Fire me." It wouldn't be ideal, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and would ultimately get me out of an environment that I dislike.

To the OP: find your outlet, whatever it is. Some passion outside of this profession. Doesn't have to be boxing. It can be another form of exercise, cooking a new dish, picking up an instrument and taking lessons, etc. And, as is true for me, the worst that can happen is you get fired (unless you're a Mob attorney). The world will keep spinning, the sun will come up, you'll look for another job and your life will move on. Don't rob yourself of that opportunity.

The outlet thing: My problem is that if I add anything at all to my schedule, everything falls apart. Full time dad to two little people, and doing well for myself at an IP boutique. However, just the stress of trying to get my work done while also trying to be there for my kids (especially now that it's summer) is driving me towards a mental breakdown I think.

Realized that I really have no time, or capacity, to date a few weeks ago when my son got injured playing with his buddies, and I was barely able to work, let alone keep up with dating, what with monitoring him for about a week. Broke off my relationship. This time I'm consigned to being alone. As far as someone to really talk to about life, my significant other is really it. My buddies and I don't really talk if, and when, we get together--emotional support usually isn't something dudes do well for each other. It's more activity based. Family is hyper-religious crazy. No support there. And I don't talk to my female friends about my weaknesses... ego?!

In busy weeks at work, I have about zero time for any excercise. My sleep pattern, and health, takes a hit... and it's extremely difficult to get back into a routine, especially when once work ebbs I need to spend extra time with my kids to let them know that they matter.

Seems like I have no time for hobbies anymore. Can't remember when I last learned a song on my guitar. Don't surf or skate anymore, which were my high school hobbies. Used to love reading. Hate it since law school. Haven't read a book since I was a bright eyed history grad on his was to UVa Law... only really read if I'm paid to do it nowadays.

If it wasn't for my kids, I would definitely be checking out. And the thought still crosses my mind often enough. I gave my gun to my father a few years back when I realized that, even after digging myself out of post-graduate hell, I would likely suffer from depression frequently enough that I don't want to risk having a rifle around in moments of weakness.

The worst part is I feel like I've lost interest in living very recently. Just got a nice raise, everything is going well enough, but it's like I've lost all drive and energy. I do things for my kids because they are a priority. I just am not interested in trying to even think about anything outside of my obligations anymore (work/kids). And Im even starting to struggle with that.

Problem is I am very social about activities, i.e., don't really have an interest in movies, television shows, cooking, sports, or most activities unless I'm doing them with, or for, others... which adds a hurdle to getting involved in something self-developmental (if I even had time). My work is so isolating (I work remote, which adds to it) that I get used to this empty, alone, feeling and forget how much of a people person I really am (love my kids, but need more time to get out with friends for adult interactions). I also fade out of my social circles due to work, so it's not as though I always have some activity, or friend, there to pick me up as soon as I'm finished with the isolation that is writing complex arguments. And partners, opposing counsel, obviously do not help the situation.

Just feeling lost recently, which is strange with how good work has gone for me. Know I need help, but it really is a personal thing... a mental "get back up and fight" type of personal coaching to get out of this funk, right!? It just feels like somehow I'm broken this time. Feeling like I've lost hope this time. If even when things are really good career wise I feel like life is pointless, like pushing that Sisyphus rock up the hill one more time isn't something I'm up to anymore, I'm just wondering if there really is any hope that things will get better?

[northwood]

First off thank you for palpating in this thread. You situation is like others so you are not the only single parent attorney who feel like this, and therefore you are not alone.


It will get better. Sounds like while you enjoy the pay you don’t like working remotely, as you need interaction with others. Can you scale back your responsibilities? If not perhaps trying to find a more team oriented job where collaboration is a necessity? Do you think your parents or someone could watch the kiddos one day a week so you can join a league ( call it a networking even on your calendar, but know it’s a purely social endeavor- no work at all to be discussed)

Working in law is can be horrendous on dating. But do t give up.