2019 Vault 100 Rankings Released

[hoos89]

Are the Above the Law rankings more accurate?

PPP and RPL are the best metrics. Law firms exist to make money. Nothing else matters.

I’ve heard this but always found it kinda curious. As an associate, you’re not an owner of the firm, so why would your first concern be its revenue or profitability? I can’t imagine a non-lawyer would ever pick his company based on its earnings per share or whatever. Especially not if (for some reason) he knew he’d probably never own its stock.

1) it's a sign of the financial stability of the firm (i.e. job security) and 2) higher PPP/RPL means the firm is more likely to match future raises. also a sign that the firm gets high level work and is likely to correlate with exit options.

[Anonymous User]

Are the Above the Law rankings more accurate?

PPP and RPL are the best metrics. Law firms exist to make money. Nothing else matters.

I’ve heard this but always found it kinda curious. As an associate, you’re not an owner of the firm, so why would your first concern be its revenue or profitability? I can’t imagine a non-lawyer would ever pick his company based on its earnings per share or whatever. Especially not if (for some reason) he knew he’d probably never own its stock.

They all pay the same and do the same stuff. Quality of life is going to be group/partner specific more than any firmwide generalizations. You can do the chambers bands but if the firm isn’t overall profitable you could get screwed anyways on comp and the stability of leaving when you want as opposed to getting canned early.

[Anonymous User]

LaTTTham in the V5 is the silliest thing I've ever heard of

This profession has the shortest term memory in the world

Although DPW definitely deserves the ousting

[Anonymous User]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

[nealric]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

It's kind of like USNWR putting Harvard in front of Yale from time to time. The larger institution tends to occupy more mind space.

[Anonymous User]

Milbank is a V10, this list is idiotic

So confused by you. V10 means Vault 10 and we are talking about vault rankings. So either the list is idiotic and you shouldn’t refer to a firm by their vault ranking or it isn’t idiotic and their vault ranking matters.

Noob. V10 doesn't mean shit in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

It's kind of like USNWR putting Harvard in front of Yale from time to time. The larger institution tends to occupy more mind space.

The difference is USNWR never put Harvard in front of Yale. When the rankings first came out in 1987 (or 1988 I'm not sure), they tied.
Also, USNWR is based clearly on selectivity. On the other hand, Vault overall rankings are not based on selectivity either. Vault has a separate selectivity rankings and that's based on selectivity.

[Anonymous User]

Are the Above the Law rankings more accurate?

PPP and RPL are the best metrics. Law firms exist to make money. Nothing else matters.

I’ve heard this but always found it kinda curious. As an associate, you’re not an owner of the firm, so why would your first concern be its revenue or profitability? I can’t imagine a non-lawyer would ever pick his company based on its earnings per share or whatever. Especially not if (for some reason) he knew he’d probably never own its stock.

Whether a firm would match the market bonus or salary is tied closely to those PPP and RPL metrics.

[jbagelboy]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

It's kind of like USNWR putting Harvard in front of Yale from time to time. The larger institution tends to occupy more mind space.

except this has literally never happened

[nealric]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

It's kind of like USNWR putting Harvard in front of Yale from time to time. The larger institution tends to occupy more mind space.

The difference is USNWR never put Harvard in front of Yale. When the rankings first came out in 1987 (or 1988 I'm not sure), they tied.
Also, USNWR is based clearly on selectivity. On the other hand, Vault overall rankings are not based on selectivity either. Vault has a separate selectivity rankings and that's based on selectivity.

I'm probably thinking of Stanford USNWR is largely selectivity, but there's also survey score involved.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, Paul Hastings. I see you. Is PH actually a good place to work (not talking about prestige, I’m talking about the culture, hours, and overall work/life balance)?

consensus seems to be no

Well, shit, what are these rankings even good for? They trick people into making poor decisions.

Well, only stupid people put any weight into these rankings that place Cravath ahead of Wachtell. As someone who's working in biglaw, I would say the more specific Vault rankings (region, practice area, etc) could be helpful to law students. I participated in the Vault survey as well and I can say the overall rankings are just completely useless.

It's kind of like USNWR putting Harvard in front of Yale from time to time. The larger institution tends to occupy more mind space.

The difference is USNWR never put Harvard in front of Yale. When the rankings first came out in 1987 (or 1988 I'm not sure), they tied.
Also, USNWR is based clearly on selectivity. On the other hand, Vault overall rankings are not based on selectivity either. Vault has a separate selectivity rankings and that's based on selectivity.

I'm probably thinking of Stanford USNWR is largely selectivity, but there's also survey score involved.

I know this is all silly and trivial stuff. But just to point out, Stanford has never been number 1. TLS has a thread containing historical rankings which I looked at years ago. USNWR have been remarkably stable, especially the top 6.

[smokeylarue]

I know this is all silly and trivial stuff. But just to point out, Stanford has never been number 1. TLS has a thread containing historical rankings which I looked at years ago. USNWR have been remarkably stable, especially the top 6.

I assume he is talking about the infinitely more famous and important USNews rankings for top colleges. The top schools swap spots all the time.

[Anonymous User]

Are the Above the Law rankings more accurate?

PPP and RPL are the best metrics. Law firms exist to make money. Nothing else matters.

I’ve heard this but always found it kinda curious. As an associate, you’re not an owner of the firm, so why would your first concern be its revenue or profitability? I can’t imagine a non-lawyer would ever pick his company based on its earnings per share or whatever. Especially not if (for some reason) he knew he’d probably never own its stock.

Within the same professional industry, usually we value those companies with higher revenues/profits as likely better. Think people mentioning I work at a Fortune 100 or whatever.

I think the only distinction in law is higher aggregate revenue or aggregate profit matter less as there is less added benefit/synergy to being one firm so the per person metrics matter significantly more.

[nealric]

I know this is all silly and trivial stuff. But just to point out, Stanford has never been number 1. TLS has a thread containing historical rankings which I looked at years ago. USNWR have been remarkably stable, especially the top 6.

I assume he is talking about the infinitely more famous and important USNews rankings for top colleges. The top schools swap spots all the time.

That may be it. Have to admit I don't follow USNWR very closely.

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

[dabigchina]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

I'm the anon who posted this ranking. I don't work at Kirkland.

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

Lol. Equity Partnership prospects are not good at Kirkland or Cravath.

I’d also put Boies above Kirkland. And also Kellog, Keker and Kobre & Kim (since they’re all practically at 100 attorneys)

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

MTO

[Anonymous User]

People have more of an issue with Kirkland than below-market W&C?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

Lol. Equity Partnership prospects are not good at Kirkland or Cravath.

I’d also put Boies above Kirkland.

Equity partnership prospects are not *good* at anywhere that is prestigious enough to be considered here. Prestige comes from working for prestigious clients. Building a book when your clients are institutions like Goldman, KKR, Blackstone, etc etc is extremely difficult.

However, if you are a senior associate at Cravath or a non-share at Kirkland, you will be able to get shares at a slightly lesser firm, or go in-house somewhere excellent - that is the point of prestige, and if you don't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

Lol. Equity Partnership prospects are not good at Kirkland or Cravath.

I’d also put Boies above Kirkland.

Equity partnership prospects are not *good* at anywhere that is prestigious enough to be considered here. Prestige comes from working for prestigious clients. Building a book when your clients are institutions like Goldman, KKR, Blackstone, etc etc is extremely difficult.

However, if you are a senior associate at Cravath or a non-share at Kirkland, you will be able to get shares at a slightly lesser firm, or go in-house somewhere excellent - that is the point of prestige, and if you don't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Yeah, sorry Kirkland. Proposed revised:

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Kellog Hansen
5. Boies Schiller
6. Cravath

[Anonymous User]

The Real Top 5 Most Prestigious Law Firms: (firms with over 100 lawyers)

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Cravath
5. Kirkland

(based on a combination of associate pay, partnership prospects, brand recognition, viable exit options)

Kirkland associate detected

Except it's true

Lol. Equity Partnership prospects are not good at Kirkland or Cravath.

I’d also put Boies above Kirkland.

Equity partnership prospects are not *good* at anywhere that is prestigious enough to be considered here. Prestige comes from working for prestigious clients. Building a book when your clients are institutions like Goldman, KKR, Blackstone, etc etc is extremely difficult.

However, if you are a senior associate at Cravath or a non-share at Kirkland, you will be able to get shares at a slightly lesser firm, or go in-house somewhere excellent - that is the point of prestige, and if you don't see that, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Yeah, sorry Kirkland. Proposed revised:

1. Wachtell Lipton Rosen and Katz
2. Williams & Connolly
3. Susman Godfrey
4. Kellog Hansen
5. Boies Schiller
6. Cravath

nope

1. Paul Hastings
2. Dechert
3. Cadwalader
4. Troutman Sanders
5. Cadwalader