Is Law School Worth it? Forum

[nixy]

All the whiny, passive aggressive posts here are perfect examples of why certain people in law can't get jobs in the Valley, start their own successful business or law firm, or convince VCs they're worth investing in. They take multiple posts to make a point it took me 1 post to make pages ago, without all the whining. Talk about inefficiency and wasting time. If I was a client, boss, or investor, I'd jump out the window from how inefficient they are and all the whining that comes with it. I would hop out that window and take a chance with gravity rather than sit through that meeting.

You should really stop posting like an asshole.

With few exceptions not many attorneys make FBI director or SEC of State but LOTS of attorneys make partner….even at your old firm.

...except many more lawyers don't become partner.

[glitched]

Was largely unemployable before law school. Made $23k in the middle of nowhere. Went to HYS with near full need based aid but still have 150k plus debt. Work in biglaw in major market and wake up hating my life everyday. Thoughts alternate between suicide and fleeing the country to escape debt. Law school was not worth it for me and wouldn’t be no matter how much I made.

Hey man/woman, I don't know how serious you are, but wanted to say to you (and anyone that might be feeling the same) that suicide is never the right answer. If you find yourself feeling that way or thinking like that, please find someone to talk to (I've been through that too and I'm open to talk things through if you want to PM me). Debt really sucks, trust me I know I took near-sticker for law school, but it's a very solvable problem. And suicide is NOT the answer. There's life while you're in debt, and there's life after it.

[Npret]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

[2013]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

You’re generally correct that it’s very hard. But, how many in that original 100 are partners at lower ranked v100 firms? Probably a quarter to a fifth. If your goal is to be a partner at a v5, probably less than a 1% shot. But people trade down all the time for partnership prospects.

[Npret]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

You’re generally correct that it’s very hard. But, how many in that original 100 are partners at lower ranked v100 firms? Probably a quarter to a fifth. If your goal is to be a partner at a v5, probably less than a 1% shot. But people trade down all the time for partnership prospects.

If you trade down, you still need business.

[nixy]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

You’re generally correct that it’s very hard. But, how many in that original 100 are partners at lower ranked v100 firms? Probably a quarter to a fifth. If your goal is to be a partner at a v5, probably less than a 1% shot. But people trade down all the time for partnership prospects.

1/4-1/5 is still not a lot of people making partner.

[MillllerTime]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

You’re generally correct that it’s very hard. But, how many in that original 100 are partners at lower ranked v100 firms? Probably a quarter to a fifth. If your goal is to be a partner at a v5, probably less than a 1% shot. But people trade down all the time for partnership prospects.

1/4-1/5 is still not a lot of people making partner.

I don't know what my odds of making equity partner are, and frankly I do not really care at all. My point, and I think a point made by a few others in this thread, was that nobody needs to make equity partner at a v5 for law school to be worth it. Even if we're just talking about the financial return. OP and anyone choosing whether to attend law school should be doing so based on reasonably likely outcomes, not comparing fringe scenarios like WLRK equity partner vs. founder of the next Facebook.

[nixy]

Oh, I agree. I was only responding to Toni’s blithe optimism about making partner (which was more of a tangent).

[Toni V]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

[nixy]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

Look, just stop. The up-and-out model of law firm partnership is not actually widespread across other professions. And saying someone is "placed on partnership track" is kind of meaningless when firms know perfectly well the degree of attrition they'll see in a given class long before anyone gets to actually being considered for partnership.

(Also, your point originally seemed to be that of course people could realistically expect to be made partner, so I'm not really sure what you're arguing.)

[nick417]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain. Plus, most normal associates realize that the value of trying to make partner is not worth it. Actually, "cut it" should be replaced with "not everyone manages to be insane with zero life."

But anyway, law school is worth it if you can limit your debt and the law school can place you in a job that pays off your debt. Even then there is some risk.

[Npret]

Lots of lawyers don’t make partner. It’s a handful every year and many deserving candidates don’t make it- depends on the practice, which partners back them, what business you bring it, openings, etc. Making partner is not a meritocracy and not something you get if your area doesn’t need you. Don’t go to a firm looking to make partner, at least not topnyc firms.
Firms announce their partners each year, give it a look.
In 2014 Cravath made 4 equity partners, I’m sure the incoming class was close to 100 people.
That was the first thing that popped up,do your own research.
Also note, firms are going to more levels of partnership where associates become non-equity types of partners and never make equity partner.

You’re generally correct that it’s very hard. But, how many in that original 100 are partners at lower ranked v100 firms? Probably a quarter to a fifth. If your goal is to be a partner at a v5, probably less than a 1% shot. But people trade down all the time for partnership prospects.

1/4-1/5 is still not a lot of people making partner.

I don't know what my odds of making equity partner are, and frankly I do not really care at all. My point, and I think a point made by a few others in this thread, was that nobody needs to make equity partner at a v5 for law school to be worth it. Even if we're just talking about the financial return. OP and anyone choosing whether to attend law school should be doing so based on reasonably likely outcomes, not comparing fringe scenarios like WLRK equity partner vs. founder of the next Facebook.

A person in this very thread said law school was worth it because you can be the fbi Director or a big law partner. That’s why it was discussed.
The level of ignorance about law, law firms and law careers on this forum seems to have returned to pre recession levels. The balance and insight by experienced attorneys seems to be mainly gone and it’s 0Ls telling themselves things they wish were true.

I won’t try to fight that unrealistic and factually false viewpoint on my own.i did that once already on another account(I think it was sunynp) years ago. Once the posters here started collecting data, getting their own experience and most importantly, once law school Transparency was started, the sentiment on the forums became more realistic.

It seems we’re back to thinking law school is worth it when for most people it just isn’t. It’s too expensive, biglaw isn’t certain and even getting biglaw doesn’t mean you have it made compared to other careers.

Good luck everyone. Just try to find people who will give you straight answers at their firm and do your own research. Talk to a lot of people, not just one happy first year who thinks he’s set for life.

[Toni V]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

[nixy]

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

This is so totally not helpful. There have been 43 US presidents since this country began and there are 100 senators at any given time. Most lawyers are not going to become president or a senator.

[Anonymous User]

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

Two members of Congress are from cooley law school.

[Npret]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

No one is looking at which first years will make partner. I don’t know why you keep throwing out incorrect and irrelevant information.
Does it bother you that law school is a terrible choice for many people? I don’t understand why you want to deny reality.

[Toni V]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

No one is looking at which first years will make partner. I don’t know why you keep throwing out incorrect and irrelevant information.
Does it bother you that law school is a terrible choice for many people? I don’t understand why you want to deny reality.

It may be a poor choice for some but a WONDERFUL choice for many others! Stepping out of school into an immediate six fig income is reality.

[Npret]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

No one is looking at which first years will make partner. I don’t know why you keep throwing out incorrect and irrelevant information.
Does it bother you that law school is a terrible choice for many people? I don’t understand why you want to deny reality.

It may be a poor choice for some but a WONDERFUL choice for many others! Stepping out of school into an immediate six fig income is reality.

If all you want is to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and 3 years for a shot at a 6 figure job, then go for it. If you measure that as success then I think you and others are being very shortsighted. At least calculate how many years you need to work to break even.

[Anonymous User]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

No one is looking at which first years will make partner. I don’t know why you keep throwing out incorrect and irrelevant information.
Does it bother you that law school is a terrible choice for many people? I don’t understand why you want to deny reality.

It may be a poor choice for some but a WONDERFUL choice for many others! Stepping out of school into an immediate six fig income is reality.

If all you want is to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and 3 years for a shot at a 6 figure job, then go for it. If you measure that as success then I think you and others are being very shortsighted. At least calculate how many years you need to work to break even.

Dunno why this is so difficult a concept for a lot of people. Sticker is almost never worth it. If you have good stats then your #1 priority should be to get a substantial if not full scholarship to reduce your COA. If your gpa is high enough take the LSAT until you get a T13 full ride. Then you will get the best of both worlds as far as minimal debt and tremendous odds at making $180K right out of law school. This is what I did and I’m already richer than if I had worked my shit pre-law job for the last four years. If your gpa is outside the range or after a lot of effort the LSAT just isn’t crossing into that 170s then a full ride to a good regional is still a great bet to improve your career prospects as your downside to missing biglaw is low, and paying some tuition to a T13 may not be so bad depending on your risk aversion and career alternatives. Just don’t pay sticker. But people here should stop pretending the alternatives are pay sticker or don’t go. This is a faulty assumption people keep making that ignores where the bulk of value in attending law school lies.

[Npret]

When someone joins a firm, the firm immediately places them on a partnership track but not everyone manages to “cut it.” This is true in all professions. Not everyone ends up playing on the first-string.

There is some truth to this: a good firm should make a hiring decision based on whether it could imagine this person being a partner. If the answer is no, have to consider why you are hiring this person.

But the "cut it" makes it sound like every individual has an equal opportunity to make partner. This is definitely not the case. My firm (a 600+ attorney firm) promotes 4-5 new partners a year. Making partner is more random and can be based on factors outside of your control such as what practice group you are assigned to or assignments you obtain.

I partially agree with your assessment....making partner is far from a sure thing. But yes, some will not “cut it,” while others may fall by the wayside for the reasons you pointed out.

Trivia in ref to this topic. 58% of our presidents were lawyers. 57% of our US Senators are lawyers.

No one is looking at which first years will make partner. I don’t know why you keep throwing out incorrect and irrelevant information.
Does it bother you that law school is a terrible choice for many people? I don’t understand why you want to deny reality.

It may be a poor choice for some but a WONDERFUL choice for many others! Stepping out of school into an immediate six fig income is reality.

If all you want is to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and 3 years for a shot at a 6 figure job, then go for it. If you measure that as success then I think you and others are being very shortsighted. At least calculate how many years you need to work to break even.

Dunno why this is so difficult a concept for a lot of people. Sticker is almost never worth it. If you have good stats then your #1 priority should be to get a substantial if not full scholarship to reduce your COA. If your gpa is high enough take the LSAT until you get a T13 full ride. Then you will get the best of both worlds as far as minimal debt and tremendous odds at making $180K right out of law school. This is what I did and I’m already richer than if I had worked my shit pre-law job for the last four years. If your gpa is outside the range or after a lot of effort the LSAT just isn’t crossing into that 170s then a full ride to a good regional is still a great bet to improve your career prospects as your downside to missing biglaw is low, and paying some tuition to a T13 may not be so bad depending on your risk aversion and career alternatives. Just don’t pay sticker. But people here should stop pretending the alternatives are pay sticker or don’t go. This is a faulty assumption people keep making that ignores where the bulk of value in attending law school lies.

I’m not pretending anything. I paid nothing for law school between scholarships and family money earmarked for my education because I went to undergrad on scholarships. What I’m addressing is the idea that just because the initial biglaw salary is high, law school is worth it.
Most people don’t see beyond the dollar signs of being a first year without considering debt, getting laid off, hating the work, needing sleep, being on call with little control, cancelling plans, etc.
Law was good for me- though I started out as a striver, I learned it wasn’t enough for me after getting ill, etc. I was lucky I had great partners that liked me from the beginning and I always was able to do good timely work under pressure.
I saw people who lasted less than a year, people who got fired without ever having bad reviews, and others who stayed hating it and doing the minimum they could because they owed a fortune, but the minimum still consumed them. Lots of divorces, affairs and unhappy spouses and children too. Many biglaw lawyers would not send their kids into the same career because they have seen how it’s changed over time.

This thread has been too rosy, shortsided, and unrealistic based on my experience and my observations of others.

I feel the loss of experienced voices has crippled the quality of advice here.

[JohnnieSockran]

I like biglaw so far. I think law school was worth it.

Biglaw is rosy.

[Anonymous User]

For me it was definitely not worth it. I spent a couple years in a government agency in an NTE position, volunteered for a while after that, finally got a new job, only to have my boss resign as the result of a scandal and take down the entire office with him, and now I'm searching for work again. The highs have definitely been high, but periodic unemployment and constantly trying to find opportunities to contribute is extremely wearing. Even if I had a steady gig at an agency, I'm pretty sure I'd find it unfulfilling, since at least at my agency, promotion and work assignments were based on seniority, not quality of work. As soon as I get rid of these loans (yay PSLF) I'm probably going to mail it in and find something more interesting/productive to do with my life.

[lagamemnon]

I like biglaw so far. I think law school was worth it.

Biglaw is rosy.

How far in are you?

[Npret]

I like biglaw so far. I think law school was worth it.

Biglaw is rosy.

How far in are you?

I’m guessing 1st year and not corporate. But there are definitely people who like biglaw. I used to be one of them. In my view it depends on how much status you get from your job title and to a lesser extent, income.
If I did biglaw hiring I would go for the middle class (or even lower)strivers every time.The people who went to Harvard over a full ride elsewhere, and not to use Harvard’s version of lrap, are another good source.

[JohnnieSockran]

I like biglaw so far. I think law school was worth it.

Biglaw is rosy.

How far in are you?

I’m guessing 1st year and not corporate. But there are definitely people who like biglaw. I used to be one of them. In my view it depends on how much status you get from your job title and to a lesser extent, income.
If I did biglaw hiring I would go for the middle class (or even lower)strivers every time.The people who went to Harvard over a full ride elsewhere, and not to use Harvard’s version of lrap, are another good source.

Lolz. I'm corporate. Not sure how you both struggled to catch the sarcasm, but post was meant as a joke becaus npret and a bunch of anons are getting all fired up over this thread, which has completely devolved.

But, I generally like my job (corporate, biglaw).