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Anonymous User wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:For the record, Chicago firms do not really do pre-OCI, correct?

For the record, almost every market is moving to pre-oci. It may not be at the same level of DC, but I know multiple people over the past 2-3 years that got Chicago offers pre-oci. It is in your best interest to mass mail and do as much pre-oci as possible for EACH market because firms are really figuring out how beneficial this whole thing is for them.

So don't listen to career services? I believe in the TLS hivemind, but they keep telling me pre-OCI is only for the best candidates and NYC firms/don't mail firms coming to OCI because they might ding you before you get to interview...

It is in career services BEST interest for pre-oci to go away, especially at t13s. One of the main attractions for students at t13 is that OCI is pure lottery, unlike at other schools. That means a 2.8 student could still get an interview at Arnold and Porter DC, even if their GPA restriction is a 3.7 (just making up a hypo). At non-t13s, AP gets to pre-select their candidates, so they can decide to only interview the top 10 gpas in the class. Pre-OCI is now being used as a tool by firms to get the their classes partially (and in more and more cases completely filled) before OCI instead of going through the lottery of what students they might get and whether they are a good fit for the firm.

Speaking from personal experience: I was a median t13 student trying to snag DC. If I didn't hustle my ass off, network, and mass mail each firm in DC a few years ago, I would have struck out without pre-oci. Further, a significant chunk of my class's top 25% kids who wanted DC completely struck out. Yet myself and 3 other friends all got biglaw in DC with median/slightly under median grades because we hustled, networked, and got pre-oci opportunities. With pre-oci, I had 3 offers in July. Once OCI came around, I got exactly 0 offers from it. My career services office was pissed as they explicitly told me to wait to OCI. Guess what? If I had listened, I wouldn't have gotten biglaw. That is the honest truth.

More and more firms are seeing the trend and moving this way especially outside of DC. I know of a firm that got some bad press last fall because they cancelled their OCI interviews for a bunch of offices because they had completely filled up their classes with pre-oci kids. This is the new trend. Don't wait and be a sucker. Plus, the vast majority of firms won't ding you pre-oci. If they aren't sold on you yet, most will say we look forward to meeting you at OCI. I think out of the hundreds of firms I networked/mass mailed summers ago, I probably got 2-3 rejections before OCI.

As far as alums you have already spoken to, if they haven't asked for a resume, chances are they aren't going to push it if you sent it. The goal with networking is to talk about their practice and their firm. Learn something. Take notes. They are useful come OCI if necessary. What happened to me and my friends who all did this was if an associate or partner liked you, they would ask for your resume or ask if you were interested in working there as a summer. I wouldn't push my own resume directly. You can ask each person about the summer program and questions concerning it, and hopefully they get the hint. But I had plenty of conversations that didn't gel with the other person and didn't get my resume pushed.

My goal when networking and what I suggest now is you think about a 10% rule. You conceivably want 10% of your networking calls/coffee meetings to end up with a resume push and possible interview. Now after talking to a bunch of people, it seems a median t13 student who is articulate and interesting gets about a 5-10% rate of conversation to interview during pre-oci (completely scientific I know). So that means you need to be having a lot of these calls/emails/coffees. Especially given about 50% of the initial networking email wont result in a response.

I looked at my calendar from a few years ago and I had something like 60 calls or coffees with associates and partners in June (remember that doesn't count the initial emails). From those 60 or so networking opportunities, I received 6 interviews/callbacks in both DC and a secondary market, and it resulted in 3 offers in July.

re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

yyyuppp wrote:re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

Yes, and this is what happens in DC as well. The best advice, which I have been trying to give in this thread, is that you both mass mail and network with these firms. The SINGLE best way to get pre-oci offers is to have someone from the firm itself push your resume and get you a callback.

The exceptions to this are growing however. Like the above poster suggested, the top firms in NYC dont care about networking. They will schedule callbacks in June if they like your resume. This is also growing in other markets, but your by and far best bet is to mass mail and network, especially network in the city/cities you really want. So if you really want Chicago, your best bet is to start hustling right now for Chicago and prepare your app materials. So when grades come out, you can email blast NYC and other markets, but also have ground work laid down in Chicago for internal people in a firm pushing your resume and app.

Fletch23 wrote:
When cold-emailing alumni, would you suggest reaching out to associates or partners to get the ball rolling?

I usually e-mailed associates, but don't be afraid of e-mailing partners either (especially if they're the only one in the office you're most interested in). I used this approach for my top choice market, where there weren't a ton of alumni from my school so that may have helped. Be careful not to send out TOO many requests at a time as you risk overwhelming yourself. Start with a manageable number and go from there. I had a surprisingly high rate of responses (close to 2/3) on these, and each one of those resulted in about a half hour phone call, so keep that in mind.

Anonymous User wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:For the record, Chicago firms do not really do pre-OCI, correct?

For the record, almost every market is moving to pre-oci. It may not be at the same level of DC, but I know multiple people over the past 2-3 years that got Chicago offers pre-oci. It is in your best interest to mass mail and do as much pre-oci as possible for EACH market because firms are really figuring out how beneficial this whole thing is for them.

So don't listen to career services? I believe in the TLS hivemind, but they keep telling me pre-OCI is only for the best candidates and NYC firms/don't mail firms coming to OCI because they might ding you before you get to interview...

Career services often gives bad advice.

carsondalywashere wrote:
Actually, one more question; what about with alums I already have spoken with? Can I send them my resume and ask who I should send it to? Is there a more tactful way of attaching a resume in that situation?

Yes absolutely reach out to alumni you've already spoken to. And don't be afraid to attach your resume...I wouldn't find that weird at all. Just don't be pushy about it (don't ask them to DO anything with it). If you don't attach the resume they don't really know if you're a realistic candidate or not and it's harder for them to help you. Attorneys aren't dumb; we know law students want jobs and I think for the most part people like to feel helpful if they can.

What does an email via mass mail look like?

ZVBXRPL wrote:What does an email via mass mail look like?

mine was like "I am a rising 2L at X Law School. I am very interested in working in X FIRM''s summer associate program next year and I want to provide to you a resume, as well as an unofficial transcript and cover letter. These docs are attached yada yada... i really look forward to interviewing with your big old law firm this summer yada yada "

my cover letter would introduce myself and highlight any connection i've already made with the firm (i.e. going to a recruiting event or talking to an attorney at a career night or something, or even just speaking with some associates via email). Then I would explain my interest in the firm and why it makes a lot of sense for me to want to work there (like, i really want to litigate, and i really want to be in new york cuz of its dynamic legal market, you guys are one of the best for lit in new york). I would also mention that i know that the work at X firm is demanding and requires dedication and skill, but that my academic record reflects that i can cut it.

theres a lot of ways to do it, but i hope this helps.

Anonymous User wrote:

ZVBXRPL wrote:What does an email via mass mail look like?

mine was like "I am a rising 2L at X Law School. I am very interested in working in X FIRM''s summer associate program next year and I want to provide to you a resume, as well as an unofficial transcript and cover letter. These docs are attached yada yada... i really look forward to interviewing with your big old law firm this summer yada yada "

my cover letter would introduce myself and highlight any connection i've already made with the firm (i.e. going to a recruiting event or talking to an attorney at a career night or something, or even just speaking with some associates via email). Then I would explain my interest in the firm and why it makes a lot of sense for me to want to work there (like, i really want to litigate, and i really want to be in new york cuz of its dynamic legal market, you guys are one of the best for lit in new york). I would also mention that i know that the work at X firm is demanding and requires dedication and skill, but that my academic record reflects that i can cut it.

theres a lot of ways to do it, but i hope this helps.

Helpful. I'm a rising 2L at NYU. <3.10 GPA. Should I mass mail? Include GPA? Or just wait for EIW?

Should I mass mail? Include GPA? Or just wait for EIW?

Yes. Judgment call. No.

sparkytrainer wrote:

yyyuppp wrote:re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

Yes, and this is what happens in DC as well. The best advice, which I have been trying to give in this thread, is that you both mass mail and network with these firms. The SINGLE best way to get pre-oci offers is to have someone from the firm itself push your resume and get you a callback.

The exceptions to this are growing however. Like the above poster suggested, the top firms in NYC dont care about networking. They will schedule callbacks in June if they like your resume. This is also growing in other markets, but your by and far best bet is to mass mail and network, especially network in the city/cities you really want. So if you really want Chicago, your best bet is to start hustling right now for Chicago and prepare your app materials. So when grades come out, you can email blast NYC and other markets, but also have ground work laid down in Chicago for internal people in a firm pushing your resume and app.

what did your mass mailing strategy exactly entail? I networked my ass off during the semester and kept in touch with a lot of partners and associates. Do I mass mail my application to them directly, or do I risk burning bridges too early?

rwajo12 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

yyyuppp wrote:re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

Yes, and this is what happens in DC as well. The best advice, which I have been trying to give in this thread, is that you both mass mail and network with these firms. The SINGLE best way to get pre-oci offers is to have someone from the firm itself push your resume and get you a callback.

The exceptions to this are growing however. Like the above poster suggested, the top firms in NYC dont care about networking. They will schedule callbacks in June if they like your resume. This is also growing in other markets, but your by and far best bet is to mass mail and network, especially network in the city/cities you really want. So if you really want Chicago, your best bet is to start hustling right now for Chicago and prepare your app materials. So when grades come out, you can email blast NYC and other markets, but also have ground work laid down in Chicago for internal people in a firm pushing your resume and app.

what did your mass mailing strategy exactly entail? I networked my ass off during the semester and kept in touch with a lot of partners and associates. Do I mass mail my application to them directly, or do I risk burning bridges too early?

I’m not the quoted anon, just another rising 2L who just started mass mailing, so take this with a grain of salt.

My process is to email my application materials to the recruiter (or submit them online if the firm requires it), then email all of my contacts at the firm a copy of my resume and let them know I’ve applied.

Anonymous User wrote:

rwajo12 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

yyyuppp wrote:re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

Yes, and this is what happens in DC as well. The best advice, which I have been trying to give in this thread, is that you both mass mail and network with these firms. The SINGLE best way to get pre-oci offers is to have someone from the firm itself push your resume and get you a callback.

The exceptions to this are growing however. Like the above poster suggested, the top firms in NYC dont care about networking. They will schedule callbacks in June if they like your resume. This is also growing in other markets, but your by and far best bet is to mass mail and network, especially network in the city/cities you really want. So if you really want Chicago, your best bet is to start hustling right now for Chicago and prepare your app materials. So when grades come out, you can email blast NYC and other markets, but also have ground work laid down in Chicago for internal people in a firm pushing your resume and app.

what did your mass mailing strategy exactly entail? I networked my ass off during the semester and kept in touch with a lot of partners and associates. Do I mass mail my application to them directly, or do I risk burning bridges too early?

I’m not the quoted anon, just another rising 2L who just started mass mailing, so take this with a grain of salt.

My process is to email my application materials to the recruiter (or submit them online if the firm requires it), then email all of my contacts at the firm a copy of my resume and let them know I’ve applied.

thanks! any bites yet?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I’d appreciate some insight.

I’m below median at a T25 school and DC is my target market. I’m interested in a somewhat niche field that most biglaw firms don’t have as a practice area, but a handful of firms in DC do. I have substantive experience (2+ years) in this field from before law school and am working at a boutique firm this summer doing the same thing.

My question is - how should I go about massmailing for those firms? Would it be wiser to email partners right off the bat? My fear is if I send it to a recruiter my resume will be thrown straight in the garbage because of my grades. None of the partners went to my law school/undergrad so I can’t use that. I know that experience is king for this field (all of the associates who work at the firms I’m targeting lateraled from other firms/no one came up through OCI) so I’m hoping my background gives me an edge. Thanks in advance y’all!!!!

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

rwajo12 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

yyyuppp wrote:re chicago: as of last summer, they do pre oci offers but not from just emailing a resume and grades to a recruiting department. I go to NU and know no one who got an offer from a chicago firm who didn't have a relationship with that firm established somehow, or were a URM and the firm contacted them. Its possible that that happened, but its not like new york at all, and there is no evidence that chicago really moving in that direction. so, there is no harm in emailing, but don't be surprised if nothing comes of it. OCI is likely still the way to go for the vast majority of chicago firms. keep in mind this is just my experience. but, my experience was that pre-OCI in new york was extremely productive and in chicago it was silence. I think that's telling.

So for nyc, especially V15, pre oci is a real thing and you will be at a disadvantage if you have the grades for these firms but didn't mail them.

Yes, and this is what happens in DC as well. The best advice, which I have been trying to give in this thread, is that you both mass mail and network with these firms. The SINGLE best way to get pre-oci offers is to have someone from the firm itself push your resume and get you a callback.

The exceptions to this are growing however. Like the above poster suggested, the top firms in NYC dont care about networking. They will schedule callbacks in June if they like your resume. This is also growing in other markets, but your by and far best bet is to mass mail and network, especially network in the city/cities you really want. So if you really want Chicago, your best bet is to start hustling right now for Chicago and prepare your app materials. So when grades come out, you can email blast NYC and other markets, but also have ground work laid down in Chicago for internal people in a firm pushing your resume and app.

what did your mass mailing strategy exactly entail? I networked my ass off during the semester and kept in touch with a lot of partners and associates. Do I mass mail my application to them directly, or do I risk burning bridges too early?

I’m not the quoted anon, just another rising 2L who just started mass mailing, so take this with a grain of salt.

My process is to email my application materials to the recruiter (or submit them online if the firm requires it), then email all of my contacts at the firm a copy of my resume and let them know I’ve applied.

thanks! any bites yet?

Nothing substantial yet this summer, but I just started sending out applications a day or two ago. I did get plenty of bites for 1L SA positions using this method FWIW.

Should one be lucky enough to get an offer by mass mailing, will firms typically allow you to hold that open through OCI? Even if it is over a month? I am considering mass mailing firms in New York and would be willing to go there but would prefer Chicago which I will be targeting during OCI.

Anonymous User wrote:Should one be lucky enough to get an offer by mass mailing, will firms typically allow you to hold that open through OCI? Even if it is over a month? I am considering mass mailing firms in New York and would be willing to go there but would prefer Chicago which I will be targeting during OCI.

Yes they will

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I’d appreciate some insight.

I’m below median at a T25 school and DC is my target market. I’m interested in a somewhat niche field that most biglaw firms don’t have as a practice area, but a handful of firms in DC do. I have substantive experience (2+ years) in this field from before law school and am working at a boutique firm this summer doing the same thing.

My question is - how should I go about massmailing for those firms? Would it be wiser to email partners right off the bat? My fear is if I send it to a recruiter my resume will be thrown straight in the garbage because of my grades. None of the partners went to my law school/undergrad so I can’t use that. I know that experience is king for this field (all of the associates who work at the firms I’m targeting lateraled from other firms/no one came up through OCI) so I’m hoping my background gives me an edge. Thanks in advance y’all!!!!

First, you need to be honest with yourself. You are below median at a t25 trying to get DC. You have almost a zero percent chance. Top 25% kids at t13 strike out from DC all of the time.

Once you are honest with yourself, you need to do 2 things. 1- target these partners ASAP for coffees/lunches/calls. Ask about their practice and their firms. Really talk fluently about why you are interested in this niche field and your experiences. That is your hook. Hey Partner X, tell me about niche y because I have particular experience in Y and think it would be a great fit for me for ZZ reasons. Hopefully a partner bites and asks for the resume. At that point, you should have made enough of an impression that you at least get a look.

2- you need to mass mail every firm in every market. You have really poor chances of getting biglaw generally, let alone DC. You need to mass mail at least 500+ offices. Do not get discouraged. Recognize at the onset your chances are zero and then if something works out, all the better.

@sparkytrainer

Thank ya kindly! I should’ve prefaced I’m not interested in working in biglaw if it’s not in this practice group - I know I wouldn’t have a shot in hell if I just wanted to do general (for lack of a better word) lit/corp. I’m not that delusional

should we mass mail firms that we are bidding on at OCI? what if it’s a firm that is known to do a lot of pre-OCI hiring? I am slightly below median at a T13 so don’t want to screw myself by mass mailing.

Anonymous User wrote:should we mass mail firms that we are bidding on at OCI? what if it’s a firm that is known to do a lot of pre-OCI hiring? I am slightly below median at a T13 so don’t want to screw myself by mass mailing.

You should have been mass mailing days ago. You NEED to start mass mailing EVERY firm in the big markets literally yesterday. You are below median. You are a target person for not getting biglaw. You need TO HUSTLE AND MASS MAIL NOW! If you wait, you will be in a world of hurt.

I go to the same school as you - we just got grades. my concern is that part of the advantage of of lottery style OCI is that I can land an interview before the firm sees my grades, while I can get rejected via mass mail for my grades alone.

Anonymous User wrote:I go to the same school as you - we just got grades. my concern is that part of the advantage of of lottery style OCI is that I can land an interview before the firm sees my grades, while I can get rejected via mass mail for my grades alone.

they aren't going to reject you at OCI before OCI. during pre-OCI they just pull people they like out of the pile of people who email them and bring them in for interviews. also, if its the case where they would actually reject you at prior to OCI based on your grades alone (which, again, they won't) its extremely likely that you never would have gotten a callback.

My CDO (GW/ND/Emory/BC) explicitly says that we are not allowed to mass mail firms that are coming to OCI. I'm not sure what the consequences would be if they find out we did mass mail OCI firms. What's the move here? Should I go ahead and apply to those firms anyway or just apply to firms that aren't coming?

Anonymous User wrote:My CDO (GW/ND/Emory/BC) explicitly says that we are not allowed to mass mail firms that are coming to OCI. I'm not sure what the consequences would be if they find out we did mass mail OCI firms. What's the move here? Should I go ahead and apply to those firms anyway or just apply to firms that aren't coming?

Your career services office is explicitly trying to fck you. If I remember correctly, oci at those schools is pre select anyway. So certainly ignore them. It makes sense that t13 hate the pre oci movement because one of the selling points is lottery oci. But your list of schools isn’t a pure lottery. Mass mail and mass mail away. Your career office isn’t looking out for you, it’s looking out for itself. It is in your best interest to mass mail and network. That is a fact proven over time by a lot of people, including myself. My career office at my t13 yelled at me for even suggesting mass mailing and trying to get an offer pre oci. Guess what? My offers from pre oci were the only offers I got. Didn’t get one at oci. If I had listened, I would have not gotten biglaw.

You should start mass mailing the moment you get your grades. You should be mass mailing every firm you can in your target locations

GPA on resume if the grades aren't hot? I'll be attaching my transcript anyway so not sure if it'd make a difference.