NYC to 200k Forum

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

You're forgetting the $100k bonus. Also meh on those COL calculators. NYC is expensive but you're not paying $200k more on COL than someone in ATL. That's just ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

Dechert matched

>tfw MLB, Dechert and V&E matched before CovingTTTon, WilmerFail, Hogan and A&P
>tfw the bottom of my class makes more than the top of my class

Dechert and V&E's PPP are double Hogan and A&P's, and 50% higher than Covington's. Wilmer only trails them by $200-500K/partner, but it's not a huge surprise here that less profitable firms are slower off the ball.

[Anonymous User]

It really is *astounding* that none of Covington, Wilmer, Gibson, Hogan, or Arnold Porter have matched yet. Boies Schiller taking their time makes more sense because they have to rejigger their entire formula.

I'll agree with you on Gibson, but truth is the vast majority of AmLaw 100 firms haven't matched and are probably hoping to never match. Wilmer, Covington, Hogan, and AP are all in PPP territory ranking from 36-61. In that range only Cooley, Morgan Lewis, and Baker McKenzie have matched.

When only 12% (3 of 25) "peer" firms have matched, I don't understand singling out any as "astounding" for not matching. This is not a done deal for any firms besides Gibson and Latham folks.

You're ignoring leverage ratio. Firms like WH have significantly lower leverage than other peer firms in the low $2 mil PEP range.

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

Those things are dumb. More like a $40k difference.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone else confirm the Dechert match? Please post the memo.

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

You're forgetting the $100k bonus. Also meh on those COL calculators. NYC is expensive but you're not paying $200k more on COL than someone in ATL. That's just ridiculous.

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

You're forgetting the $100k bonus. Also meh on those COL calculators. NYC is expensive but you're not paying $200k more on COL than someone in ATL. That's just ridiculous.

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

Sure but again, the COL argument falls apart when K&S pays its Texas associates on the Cravath scale but not its Atlanta associates.

It's about basic fairness - it is not fair that associates in some offices make significantly more than associates in other offices, particularly when it's objectively true that Atlanta associates have higher hours across the board and higher realization rates than associates in all other offices.

K&S will never raise Atlanta salaries to match other offices until forced (e.g., by a national firm opening a real office here) because partners here are unwilling to take the hit to PPP.

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

You're forgetting the $100k bonus. Also meh on those COL calculators. NYC is expensive but you're not paying $200k more on COL than someone in ATL. That's just ridiculous.

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

Sure but again, the COL argument falls apart when K&S pays its Texas associates on the Cravath scale but not its Atlanta associates.

It's about basic fairness - it is not fair that associates in some offices make significantly more than associates in other offices, particularly when it's objectively true that Atlanta associates have higher hours across the board and higher realization rates than associates in all other offices.

K&S will never raise Atlanta salaries to match other offices until forced (e.g., by a national firm opening a real office here) because partners here are unwilling to take the hit to PPP.

Oh I agree it's unfair. I'm just explaining that COL is different, not that I think that you guys shouldn't make market.

[Anonymous User]

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

That doesn't make an Atlanta senior associate making $200k better off than an NYC senior associate making $440k. That your housing situation isn't as nice doesn't mean that you're not better off financially. Sure the ATL associate might have some equity in his house, but the NYC associate has probably an additional ~$100k of discretionary income. Not a small deal.

Sure but again, the COL argument falls apart when K&S pays its Texas associates on the Cravath scale but not its Atlanta associates.

It's about basic fairness - it is not fair that associates in some offices make significantly more than associates in other offices, particularly when it's objectively true that Atlanta associates have higher hours across the board and higher realization rates than associates in all other offices.

K&S will never raise Atlanta salaries to match other offices until forced (e.g., by a national firm opening a real office here) because partners here are unwilling to take the hit to PPP.

No it's not. If you want to get paid more, move to a market paying firm/office. It's really about market forces: until there are large NYC-based offices in ATL that pay market or enough ATL-based associates lateral for more money, there's no real reason for K&S or A&B to pay market in Atlanta.

[Anonymous User]

Houston and Atlanta cost of living are nice and all, but the real biglaw winners are at Winston & Strawn on the 190 scale in Charlotte. Not even sure what you would do with all of that money as a single 25 year old, especially if you landed that job out of UNC Law on a full ride or otherwise had no debt.

[Anonymous User]

Houston and Atlanta cost of living are nice and all, but the real biglaw winners are at Winston & Strawn on the 190 scale in Charlotte. Not even sure what you would do with all of that money as a single 25 year old, especially if you landed that job out of UNC Law on a full ride or otherwise had no debt.

Uhh....you do realize that there's no requirement to spend all of your money as it comes in right?

[Anonymous User]

Houston and Atlanta cost of living are nice and all, but the real biglaw winners are at Winston & Strawn on the 190 scale in Charlotte. Not even sure what you would do with all of that money as a single 25 year old, especially if you landed that job out of UNC Law on a full ride or otherwise had no debt.

Is Charlotte even that much cheaper than Houston, factoring in taxes?

[Anonymous User]

Houston and Atlanta cost of living are nice and all, but the real biglaw winners are at Winston & Strawn on the 190 scale in Charlotte. Not even sure what you would do with all of that money as a single 25 year old, especially if you landed that job out of UNC Law on a full ride or otherwise had no debt.

Uhh....you do realize that there's no requirement to spend all of your money as it comes in right?

Wow. I had no idea.

To rephrase for your understanding, Charlotte has a lower cost of living than even Atlanta and Houston. Making the new 190 scale there would be quite the windfall for associates as compared to those in New York. In fact, those without student loans to repay would have a much higher income than they may have ever anticipated. They may even facetiously comment that they have more money than they know what to do with - even if they happen to be aware of investment opportunities!

[Anonymous User]

Can someone else confirm the Dechert match? Please post the memo.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/getting ... t-the-day/

[Anonymous User]

Anyone here work for Latham or GDC? Are associates at your firm confident the match is coming or is morale starting to sour? I’m at another Cal firm that has yet to match and I want some anonymous, unverifiable assurances one of you will match soon to force the hand of my firm.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone here work for Latham or GDC? Are associates at your firm confident the match is coming or is morale starting to sour? I’m at another Cal firm that has yet to match and I want some anonymous, unverifiable assurances one of you will match soon to force the hand of my firm.

Friend at GDC says they're nearly 100% confident the match is coming, but they know the firm has a reputation for being "slow." Expectation is sometime mid-to-late next week. Literally just a day or two before raise is supposed to take effect July 1 lol.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

That doesn't make an Atlanta senior associate making $200k better off than an NYC senior associate making $440k. That your housing situation isn't as nice doesn't mean that you're not better off financially. Sure the ATL associate might have some equity in his house, but the NYC associate has probably an additional ~$100k of discretionary income. Not a small deal.

The K&S / A&B scale goes up to $240k for an eighth year. The compression is not nearly as bad as it was before the 2016 raises. That is also before bonus, which is around $30k base plus a variable amount per hour for each hour over the target.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Updated Wall of Shame for a new day. Also fixed the L5Y growth rates; had the wrong formula in the spreadsheet across the board. (If Fried Frank's PPP growth seems crazy, yes, they actually did boost PPP from $1.32MM to $2.94MM over the past five years.)

Wall of Shame for Firms Yet to Announce:

• Kirkland ($4.70MM PPP, 44.7% L5Y PPP growth, 3.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Davis Polk ($3.70MM PPP, 50.7% L5Y PPP growth, 3.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Weil ($3.64MM PPP, 63.2% L5Y PPP growth, 3.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Paul Weiss ($4.56MM PPP, 36.2% L5Y PPP growth, 3.6 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Milbank ($3.46MM PPP, 41.5% L5Y PPP growth, 2.6 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Fried Frank ($2.94MM PPP, 123.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.9 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Simpson ($3.68MM PPP, 38.2% L5Y PPP growth, 3.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Skadden ($3.47MM PPP, 32.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  SullCrom ($4.27MM PPP, 23.8% L5Y PPP growth, 3.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Willkie ($2.97MM PPP, 43.4% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  1. Akin Gump ($2.39MM PPP, 54.9% L5Y PPP growth, 2.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  2. Latham ($3.25MM PPP, 33.0% L5Y PPP growth, 3.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  3. Paul Hastings ($2.91MM PPP, 39.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  4. Boies ($3.27MM PPP, 20.1% L5Y PPP growth, 2.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  4. Shearman ($2.32MM PPP, 52.4% L5Y PPP growth, 2.6 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Vinson & Elkins ($2.36MM PPP, 60.6% L5Y PPP growth, 3.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Quinn ($4.74MM PPP, 6.8% L5Y PPP growth, 2.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  6. King & Spalding ($2.61MM PPP, 31.2% L5Y PPP growth, 2.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Cravath ($4.00MM PPP, 14.2% L5Y PPP growth, 4.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  7. Gibson Dunn ($3.24MM PPP, 15.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Schulte ($2.56MM PPP, 21.6% L5Y PPP growth, 2.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  8. WilmerHale ($2.12MM PPP, 44.9% L5Y PPP growth, 2.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Ropes ($2.32MM PPP, 46.1% L5Y PPP growth, 3.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Dechert ($2.68MM PPP, 27.8% L5Y PPP growth, 3.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Goodwin ($2.15MM PPP, 42.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Proskauer ($2.37MM PPP, 27.9% L5Y PPP growth, 2.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Cahill ($3.69MM PPP, 3.9% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Cooley ($2.08MM PPP, 39.4% L5Y PPP growth, 2.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Winston ($2.16MM PPP, 44.8% L5Y PPP growth, 3.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)[/s]
  9. Baker Botts ($1.84MM PPP, 35.1% L5Y PPP growth, 1.9 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Cleary ($3.07MM PPP, 17.3% L5Y PPP growth, 3.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Debevoise ($2.83MM PPP, 36.2% L5Y PPP growth, 5.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Sidley ($2.26MM PPP, 25.6% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Wilson Sonsini ($2.21MM PPP, 34.4% L5Y PPP growth, 3.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)[/s]
  10. Alston & Bird ($1.93MM PPP, 12.3% L5Y PPP growth, 1.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  White & Case ($2.26MM PPP, 32.9% L5Y PPP growth, 3.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Kramer Levin ($2.15MM PPP, 28.5% L5Y PPP growth, 3.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  11. Sheppard ($1.71MM PPP, 35.2% L5Y PPP growth, 2.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  12. Cadwalader ($2.51MM PPP, -5.3% L5Y PPP growth, 4.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  12. Mayer Brown ($1.58MM PPP, 37.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  14. Holland & Knight ($1.36MM PPP, 43.2% L5Y PPP growth, 2.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  15. McDermott ($1.71MM PPP, 17.3% L5Y PPP growth, 1.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  16. Katten ($1.57MM PPP, 19.8% L5Y PPP growth, 1.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  17. Fragomen ($1.98MM PPP, 31.4% L5Y PPP growth, 4.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  18. Covington ($1.54MM PPP, 22.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  18. Greenberg ($1.63MM PPP, 20.1% L5Y PPP growth, 2.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  20. Fish & Richardson ($1.63MM PPP, 9.8% L5Y PPP growth, 1.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  20. MoFo ($1.74MM PPP, 18.1% L5Y PPP growth, 2.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  22. O'Melveny ($2.01MM PPP, -2.5% L5Y PPP growth, 3.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Orrick ($1.86MM PPP, 14.3% L5Y PPP growth, 3.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  23. Fenwick ($1.51MM PPP, 31.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  24. Jenner ($1.42MM PPP, -4.9% L5Y PPP growth, 1.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Baker McKenzie ($1.30MM PPP, 19.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Morgan Lewis ($1.37MM PPP, -11.7% L5Y PPP growth, 1.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)

Legend:
New York
California
Washington, D.C.
Chicago
Houston
Boston
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Florida

[Anonymous User]

Why does Sherman always seem to be doing so poorly when they've greatly increased profits in the last five years?

[Anonymous User]

Orrick matched according to ATL. Power move. Middle finger to Latham and GDC.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Why does Sherman always seem to be doing so poorly when they've greatly increased profits in the last five years?

It might be that the firm logo looks like it should belong to a casino.

[Anonymous User]

Orrick matched according to ATL. Power move. Middle finger to Latham and GDC.

Maybe OMM will match now?

[Anonymous User]

When you account for cost of living people in markets like Atlanta still come out ahead. Though if associates in other low-cost cities like Houston make market then there's a good argument that folks in ATL should as well. Texas has got to be the absolute sweet spot for being a biglaw associate btw when you weigh compensation, cost of living, difficulty of entering the market and quality of life.

At first sure, but not at later class years. The difference in senior associate comp between ATL and NYC after the latest raises is probably in the vicinity of $200k.

According to a cost of living calculator I just found $340,000 in Manhattan equals roughly $150,000 in ATL. Still looks like the ATL folks come out ahead. Granted I'm not taking bonuses into consideration.

You're forgetting the $100k bonus. Also meh on those COL calculators. NYC is expensive but you're not paying $200k more on COL than someone in ATL. That's just ridiculous.

Property values bruh. A biglaw associate in NYC probably rents an 800 square foot apartment for almost $3,000/month. A biglaw associate in Atlanta can rent a two-bedroom apartment for half that. Random anecdote but I know a finance dude in ATL who makes low six-figures who bought a house after a few years on the job. The actual cost of living probably isn't as great but spending $40k/year on rent versus having a mortgage for $20,000/year and gaining equity definitely makes a big difference.

Under the new tax law, on the margin, the numbers aren't as simple anymore and equalizes some COL adjustments. See the urban institute analysis for those in the 150k and 300k income levels (https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/many-t ... wning-home) In raw numbers, the break even for 150k household to justify buying a house rent would have to exceed $1,885/month to justify buying a house; at the 300k income level, it has to exceed $3,641.

[Anonymous User]

Houston and Atlanta cost of living are nice and all, but the real biglaw winners are at Winston & Strawn on the 190 scale in Charlotte. Not even sure what you would do with all of that money as a single 25 year old, especially if you landed that job out of UNC Law on a full ride or otherwise had no debt.

Is Charlotte even that much cheaper than Houston, factoring in taxes?

It's not. COL is comparable.