NYC to 200k Forum

[prisonerofazkaban1]

Jones day defender from a few pages back here... I'm just going to shut up now https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/jones-d ... tion-case/

Hoooly smokes. "Spa Day"...shudder.

[Anonymous User]

Jones day defender from a few pages back here... I'm just going to shut up now https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/jones-d ... tion-case/

Hoooly smokes. "Spa Day"...shudder.

I’m the anon from a few pages back, before the complaint on ATL was filed, who was giving Jones Day all the shit for its stupid black-box compensation. I would like to say I’m surprised by these allegations, but not at all. People would much angrier than they already all (as in, schools thinking about banning Jones Day from OCI) if all of Jones Day’s compensation-related shenanigans were brought to light.

[Anonymous User]

Brown Rudnick match across all offices. No summer bonus though (rationale being that above market bonuses are paid to 2400+ hour billers).

I'm ok with it honestly. Its nice that a smaller AmLaw 200 firm pays market at all (190K for first years in Hartford and Providence is kinda crazy).

A firm that rescinded offers to almost half of its incoming associates just before they graduated has now matched. And yet still no word from most of the biggest Boston, DC, and California firms. Very interesting.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=227896

Ropes and Goodwin already matched. Wilmer was slow the last go-around too.

Ropes - full match
WH - ___
Goodwin - full match
Choate - ___
Skadden - full match
Foley Hoag* - ___
Mintz - ___
Fish - ___
Latham - WTF BRO
Proskauer - Milbank only
Weil - full match
Goulston* - ___
Cooley - ___
Nutter* - ___
MLB - full match
JD - clusterfuck
Nixon* - ___
K&L (??) - ___
McDermott - match reported on TLS, not ATL confirmed
HK* - ___

Cooley matched salaries.

Everyone else is watching Choate (and mayyybe Mintz). If those don’t go, the “Boston” firms are probably done.

[Anonymous User]

Jones day defender from a few pages back here... I'm just going to shut up now https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/jones-d ... tion-case/

Hoooly smokes. "Spa Day"...shudder.

I’m the anon from a few pages back, before the complaint on ATL was filed, who was giving Jones Day all the shit for its stupid black-box compensation. I would like to say I’m surprised by these allegations, but not at all. People would much angrier than they already all (as in, schools thinking about banning Jones Day from OCI) if all of Jones Day’s compensation-related shenanigans were brought to light.

If they’re going to mention the associate’s salary they should mention that it’s probably nepotism and not some “fraternity.” The guy’s father-in-law was the partner-in-charge of one of its offices. If my daughter were married to an associate at the firm, I sure as hell would do anything in my power to get that associate PAID.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day 6th year associate was paid 810k??!?

[Anonymous User]

Is DC just staying at 180?

There is no longer such a thing as a "DC market," or any other city market. There hasn't been a a generation. Hundreds, if not thousands, of DC associates at Simpson, Sidley, Morgan Lewis, etc are on the new scale and will soon get the bonuses they earned.

The firms that have raised compete for summers and laterals with the firms that haven't, even firms in their home market. The associates already at "DC firms" or "Boston firms" or what have you see their law school classmates at what they had thought were peer firms suddenly and inexplicably earning more than them, and they see no reason for their firms not to match.

Technically this is true, but there certainly is such a thing as the "DC market" and "DC firms" in the mind of top law students. Wilmer, Williams & Connolly, Covington, Gibson, A&P, Hogan Lovells, ect.--that's the DC clique, and they constitute a "market" for recruiting purposes even if big New York and California firms have DC satellite offices. These are the firms with the biggest summer classes, the home offices, the most DC-focused practices, the best government exit options, and yes, the most "prestige." Its where the kids at FIP are actually trying to go while throw backup bids at Paul Weiss and Cravath. Some satellites matter more: Skadden, Kirkland, and Cleary for example, create market pressure. Others don't; what the handful of Davis Polk associates in the DC office are making is not important. Comp has never taken center stage in DC: Williams & Connolly is still the top prize despite substantial below-market comp, and Boies DC associates have been making more than other DC firms for years, but its rarely a top choice over Covington or Wilmer.

Gibson's inclusion on this list strikes me as strange when (1) Gibson isn't a DC firm and (2) in DC, the size difference between Gibson and Skadden/Kirkland/Cleary is negligible.

Quick website searches show 218 for Gibson, 205 for Kirkland, and 181 for Cleary in the District. I couldn't narrow the count down so easily for Skadden, but I think it would be the largest of those four in DC. Gibson doesn't really belong in the cabal of the core DC firms.

In my experience, Williams & Connolly and Covington have a special "DC elite" aura among 2Ls, and Wilmer, Hogan, and Arnold & Porter are next up as they're thought of as truly "DC firms."

The advantages conferred by that seem to be pretty meaningless once in practice. I don't think HL or A&P confers better gov exit options than GDC or KE or Skadden. There's definitely more of them, though, so it looks that way. And which has more "prestige"? Maybe the Hogan name carries more sway at a happy hour with some House legislative assistant you're trying to pick up. No clue. But the very DC centric firms carry much less sway outside of DC as compared to the bigger boys. To the extent that matters (and it doesn't, really, at all), it's a consideration if you ever think you'll leave the swamp.

I went to one of the HYS schools and GDC in DC was regarded as equal to, if not slightly preferable to, A&P and Hogan. I've always understood the preftige pecking order to go W&C/Covington > GDC/Wilmer > A&P/Hogan [cutoff of the DC "clique" here]> major DC offices of non-DC firms (think like Skadden, Sidley, Akin Gump, JonesDay) > the lower native DC firms (Steptoe, Wiley Rein) and smaller satellites. This is especially true if you lean conservative as FedSoc types love them some GDC DC.

I’m the anon from above giving the original list of DC clique. This is exactly my point. At T6 schools, there’s definitely an impression of who rocks the DC market, and its not guided by national firms with DC satellites—except Gibson, which is why I included it. Although I will say, at my HYS, Covington was more comparable to Wilmer (depended on what work you wanted), and W&C/Kellogg were above Covington on their own tier.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day 6th year associate was paid 810k??!?

I know, right? That's bananas. Like outright INSANE!

[Anonymous User]

Is DC just staying at 180?

There is no longer such a thing as a "DC market," or any other city market. There hasn't been a a generation. Hundreds, if not thousands, of DC associates at Simpson, Sidley, Morgan Lewis, etc are on the new scale and will soon get the bonuses they earned.

The firms that have raised compete for summers and laterals with the firms that haven't, even firms in their home market. The associates already at "DC firms" or "Boston firms" or what have you see their law school classmates at what they had thought were peer firms suddenly and inexplicably earning more than them, and they see no reason for their firms not to match.

Technically this is true, but there certainly is such a thing as the "DC market" and "DC firms" in the mind of top law students. Wilmer, Williams & Connolly, Covington, Gibson, A&P, Hogan Lovells, ect.--that's the DC clique, and they constitute a "market" for recruiting purposes even if big New York and California firms have DC satellite offices. These are the firms with the biggest summer classes, the home offices, the most DC-focused practices, the best government exit options, and yes, the most "prestige." Its where the kids at FIP are actually trying to go while throw backup bids at Paul Weiss and Cravath. Some satellites matter more: Skadden, Kirkland, and Cleary for example, create market pressure. Others don't; what the handful of Davis Polk associates in the DC office are making is not important. Comp has never taken center stage in DC: Williams & Connolly is still the top prize despite substantial below-market comp, and Boies DC associates have been making more than other DC firms for years, but its rarely a top choice over Covington or Wilmer.

Gibson's inclusion on this list strikes me as strange when (1) Gibson isn't a DC firm and (2) in DC, the size difference between Gibson and Skadden/Kirkland/Cleary is negligible.

Quick website searches show 218 for Gibson, 205 for Kirkland, and 181 for Cleary in the District. I couldn't narrow the count down so easily for Skadden, but I think it would be the largest of those four in DC. Gibson doesn't really belong in the cabal of the core DC firms.

In my experience, Williams & Connolly and Covington have a special "DC elite" aura among 2Ls, and Wilmer, Hogan, and Arnold & Porter are next up as they're thought of as truly "DC firms."

The advantages conferred by that seem to be pretty meaningless once in practice. I don't think HL or A&P confers better gov exit options than GDC or KE or Skadden. There's definitely more of them, though, so it looks that way. And which has more "prestige"? Maybe the Hogan name carries more sway at a happy hour with some House legislative assistant you're trying to pick up. No clue. But the very DC centric firms carry much less sway outside of DC as compared to the bigger boys. To the extent that matters (and it doesn't, really, at all), it's a consideration if you ever think you'll leave the swamp.

I went to one of the HYS schools and GDC in DC was regarded as equal to, if not slightly preferable to, A&P and Hogan. I've always understood the preftige pecking order to go W&C/Covington > GDC/Wilmer > A&P/Hogan [cutoff of the DC "clique" here]> major DC offices of non-DC firms (think like Skadden, Sidley, Akin Gump, JonesDay) > the lower native DC firms (Steptoe, Wiley Rein) and smaller satellites. This is especially true if you lean conservative as FedSoc types love them some GDC DC.

I’m the anon from above giving the original list of DC clique. This is exactly my point. At T6 schools, there’s definitely an impression of who rocks the DC market, and its not guided by national firms with DC satellites—except Gibson, which is why I included it. Although I will say, at my HYS, Covington was more comparable to Wilmer (depended on what work you wanted), and W&C/Kellogg were above Covington on their own tier.

I'm the anon you're replying to. Yeah, Kellogg being a lit boutique puts them in rarefied air for sure, along with the appellate divisions of some firms (Latham, Kirkland, etc.). But that's kind of it's own separate thing. If we're talking about what firms most shape the DC landscape, then being super-duper selective is but one component.

[Anonymous User]

Munger matched (+summer bonus), and friend said their summers get retroactive pay bump lol.

[Anonymous User]

Brown Rudnick match across all offices. No summer bonus though (rationale being that above market bonuses are paid to 2400+ hour billers).

I'm ok with it honestly. Its nice that a smaller AmLaw 200 firm pays market at all (190K for first years in Hartford and Providence is kinda crazy).

A firm that rescinded offers to almost half of its incoming associates just before they graduated has now matched. And yet still no word from most of the biggest Boston, DC, and California firms. Very interesting.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=227896

Brown Rudnick is as average as a firm gets and it matched. WTF.

Every form in the AmLaw 100 should be able to match now.

Except there are multiple midwest firms in the AmLaw 100 that operate in mostly third? tier markets that pay substantially below "market."

[Anonymous User]

Munger matched (+summer bonus), and friend said their summers get retroactive pay bump lol.

Hours requirement for bonus? I don't see this on ATL.

[Anonymous User]

Wall of Shame for Firms Yet to Announce:

• Fried Frank ($2.94MM PPP, 55.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.9 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  1. Latham ($3.25MM PPP, 24.8% L5Y PPP growth, 3.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  2. Paul Hastings ($2.91MM PPP, 28.4% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  3. Akin Gump ($2.39MM PPP, 35.5% L5Y PPP growth, 2.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  4. King & Spalding ($2.61MM PPP, 23.8% L5Y PPP growth, 2.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Vinson & Elkins ($2.36MM PPP, 37.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  5. Shearman & Sterling ($2.32MM PPP, 34.4% L5Y PPP growth, 2.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  6. Gibson Dunn ($3.24MM PPP, 13.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  6. Dechert ($2.68MM PPP, 21.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  8. Wilmer ($2.12MM PPP, 31.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  9. Schulte ($2.56MM PPP, 17.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.6 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Cooley ($2.08MM PPP, 28.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  Kramer Levin ($2.15MM PPP, 22.2% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  10. Baker Botts ($1.84MM PPP, 26.0% L5Y PPP growth, 1.9 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  12. Alston & Bird ($1.93MM PPP, 11.0% L5Y PPP growth, 1.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  13. Sheppard Mullin ($1.71MM PPP, 26.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  14. Cadwalader ($2.51MM PPP, 5.6% L5Y PPP decrease, 4.3 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  15. McDermott ($1.71MM PPP, 14.8% L5Y PPP growth, 1.4 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  16. Fragomen ($1.98MM PPP, 23.9% L5Y PPP growth, 4.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  16. MoFo ($1.74MM PPP, 15.3% L5Y PPP growth, 2.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  18. Mayer Brown ($1.58MM PPP, 27.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  19. O'Melveny ($2.01MM PPP, 2.6% L5Y PPP decrease, 3.1 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  20. Orrick ($1.86MM PPP, 12.5% L5Y PPP growth, 3.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  20. Katten ($1.57MM PPP, 16.6% L5Y PPP growth, 1.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  22. Greenberg ($1.63MM PPP, 16.8% L5Y PPP growth, 2.2 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  23. Fish & Richardson ($1.63MM PPP, 8.9% L5Y PPP growth, 1.5 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  24. Covington ($1.54MM PPP, 18.0% L5Y PPP growth, 2.0 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  24. Fenwick ($1.51MM PPP, 23.7% L5Y PPP growth, 2.8 EP:Assoc. leverage)
  26. Jenner ($1.42MM PPP, 5.2% L5Y PPP decrease, 1.7 EP:Assoc. leverage)

Slightly expanded Wall of Shame to generally include all firms that, on paper, are better financially positioned than Morgan Lewis to match raises and bonuses.

Can you link to these numbers?

[Anonymous User]

Munger matched (+summer bonus), and friend said their summers get retroactive pay bump lol.

Hours requirement for bonus? I don't see this on ATL.

MTO match confirmed (salary + bonus). No hours requirement stated for bonus (MTO generally does not apply an hours requirement but does adjust bonuses up or down based on productivity and reviews. This bonus does not appear to depend on those factors.) Summer bump retroactive to the start of the summer.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Jones Day 6th year associate was paid 810k??!?

It’s kinda known that JD will pay well above market to scotus clerks, though I had no idea it was that much above market.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day 6th year associate was paid 810k??!?

It’s kinda known that JD will pay well above market to scotus clerks, though I had no idea it was that much above market.

This guy is not a SCOTUS clerk.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day 6th year associate was paid 810k??!?

It’s kinda known that JD will pay well above market to scotus clerks, though I had no idea it was that much above market.

This guy is not a SCOTUS clerk.

As I mentioned before, this guy’s father-in-law was the partner-in-charge of one of their offices. If they have a black box compensation scheme, this probably happens all the time for people who have relatives there.

Probably never expected to have to reveal this.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

Presumably, yes. Question is do they pull a Cooley.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

What makes you say they're cheap? They all paid market within a few weeks last time.

They're going to be in for a rough OCI, a rash of laterals, and some low morale among associates who remain if they don't match after Gibson, Latham, Wilmer, Skadden, and a lot of other firms with good offices in DC match.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

What makes you say they're cheap? They all paid market within a few weeks last time.

They're going to be in for a rough OCI, a rash of laterals, and some low morale among associates who remain if they don't match after Gibson, Latham, Wilmer, Skadden, and a lot of other firms with good offices in DC match.

One of these firms has still yet to match. COUGH *Wilmer* COUGH.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer has to raise soon, right, given that Goodwin and Ropes and a lot of the non-Boston firms with relatively large Boston offices already have? Once Wilmer raises, the DC firms that are still holding out will likely feel compelled to match, particularly if Latham and Gibson have finally gotten around to matching by then.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

What makes you say they're cheap? They all paid market within a few weeks last time.

They're going to be in for a rough OCI, a rash of laterals, and some low morale among associates who remain if they don't match after Gibson, Latham, Wilmer, Skadden, and a lot of other firms with good offices in DC match.

One of these firms has still yet to match. COUGH *Wilmer* COUGH.

Maybe if we actually started calling it WilmerHALE the folks in Boston would listen to us and realize the Boston market has already moved. In fact, let's call it Hale & Dorr for the week to put the pressure on, and if it doesn't move by Friday we switch to calling it Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering to shame the those in Boston.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

What makes you say they're cheap? They all paid market within a few weeks last time.

They're going to be in for a rough OCI, a rash of laterals, and some low morale among associates who remain if they don't match after Gibson, Latham, Wilmer, Skadden, and a lot of other firms with good offices in DC match.

What makes me say that their PEP is so much lower than "peer" firms nationwide, probably thanks to regulatory work, oh and:

We are aware of the recent announcement by several New York-based firms that they are increasing their associate salary scale. At this point, our view is that this increase in New York salaries does not reflect the prevailing market in Washington or other cities outside New York. Traditionally, associate salaries in New York have been somewhat higher than in other markets around the country. With the recent increase in associate bonuses to match New York levels (which we announced earlier this year), we see this recent move by some New York firms as reinstating the modest differential that we’ve traditionally seen in New York vis-à-vis other markets around the country. To some extent, this may reflect cost-of-living differences, and it may also reflect a slight premium for working in highly leveraged firms with quite limited partnership and promotion opportunities. At this stage, we are not planning to increase associate salaries in any market outside New York, though of course we will continue to study these issues carefully.

That wasn't just CovingTTTon. Pretty much every DC partner believes that crap. But I hope you're right! Come on Hogan and prove me wrong, like, this week plz.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t hold your breath. It’s hard to overstate just how cheap the DC firms are. It’s possible AP/HL/Cov stay put even when Wilmer (a richer firm) matches.

Maybe someday those three will raise, once they see the hit to their recruiting/preftige when they don’t, but right now I think the Covington et al partners are watching this latest raise lose steam and breathing a sigh of relief.

What makes you say they're cheap? They all paid market within a few weeks last time.

They're going to be in for a rough OCI, a rash of laterals, and some low morale among associates who remain if they don't match after Gibson, Latham, Wilmer, Skadden, and a lot of other firms with good offices in DC match.

What makes me say that their PEP is so much lower than "peer" firms nationwide, probably thanks to regulatory work, oh and:

We are aware of the recent announcement by several New York-based firms that they are increasing their associate salary scale. At this point, our view is that this increase in New York salaries does not reflect the prevailing market in Washington or other cities outside New York. Traditionally, associate salaries in New York have been somewhat higher than in other markets around the country. With the recent increase in associate bonuses to match New York levels (which we announced earlier this year), we see this recent move by some New York firms as reinstating the modest differential that we’ve traditionally seen in New York vis-à-vis other markets around the country. To some extent, this may reflect cost-of-living differences, and it may also reflect a slight premium for working in highly leveraged firms with quite limited partnership and promotion opportunities. At this stage, we are not planning to increase associate salaries in any market outside New York, though of course we will continue to study these issues carefully.

That wasn't just CovingTTTon. Pretty much every DC partner believes that crap. But I hope you're right! Come on Hogan and prove me wrong, like, this week plz.

LOL at that CovingTTTon memo. The reality is that Wilmer has to match because Ropes has already matched, and that Latham and GDC have to match because QE and Cooley and Fenwick etc. have matched. That should be enough pressure in DC to get the DC native firms to match.

[Anonymous User]

Associates at top firms that haven't matched are getting restless. I'm a mid-level associate and HYS alum. I bring that up only because law school classmates have been texting me about lateraling and asking which firms pay recruitment bonuses.