NYC to 200k

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BenJ

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby BenJ » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MillllerTime wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have any current biglaw associates heard if their firms are planning a response to the effects of the tax law. Poster above is correct that loss of SALT deductions will be a hit on associates. Just wondering if the cravath/davis polk/simpson/kirkland etc have communicated anything to associates?


Not sure this will garner much sympathy. My understanding is that the new tax law is pretty bad for law firm partners and service providers in general.


It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not as generous to law firms as it is to some other passthrough businesses. Law firm partners and associates still get a 2 point cut in their top marginal rate, from 39% to 37%.


Biglaw partners in Texas maybe. It's a huge hit to biglaw partners in New York, Illinois, California, etc. who pay a ton in state tax, far more than offset by the small drop in the top rate.

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RCSOB657

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby RCSOB657 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:54 pm

BenJ wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MillllerTime wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Have any current biglaw associates heard if their firms are planning a response to the effects of the tax law. Poster above is correct that loss of SALT deductions will be a hit on associates. Just wondering if the cravath/davis polk/simpson/kirkland etc have communicated anything to associates?


Not sure this will garner much sympathy. My understanding is that the new tax law is pretty bad for law firm partners and service providers in general.


It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not as generous to law firms as it is to some other passthrough businesses. Law firm partners and associates still get a 2 point cut in their top marginal rate, from 39% to 37%.


Biglaw partners in Texas maybe. It's a huge hit to biglaw partners in New York, Illinois, California, etc. who pay a ton in state tax, far more than offset by the small drop in the top rate.



Perhaps those affected might band together to get their state and municipality laws changed then.

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cfcm

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby cfcm » Tue May 01, 2018 6:56 am


2013

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby 2013 » Tue May 01, 2018 8:05 am

Banks regularly raise salaries because they more frequently lose top talent to PE/Hedge Funds/VC. These firms pay a TON of money.

They regularly only recruit from the top schools and refuse to look at other schools, which significantly limits their pool of applicants (some state school students can get jobs there with like a 4.0).

Biglaw doesn’t have in-house offering market pay to associates, so the associates are less inclined to jump ship. Also, associate hours at big banks are like 80-100 hours a week.

They’re honestly probably going to try to hire more people, work them less, pay them like 175-200, but will probably offer smaller bonuses (still huge, but like 100 to top bucket).

TLDR: banking raises =/= biglaw raises. Apples or oranges comparison.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2018 10:34 am

NYC to 210?

ruski

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby ruski » Tue May 01, 2018 12:11 pm

2013 wrote:Banks regularly raise salaries because they more frequently lose top talent to PE/Hedge Funds/VC. These firms pay a TON of money.

They regularly only recruit from the top schools and refuse to look at other schools, which significantly limits their pool of applicants (some state school students can get jobs there with like a 4.0).

Biglaw doesn’t have in-house offering market pay to associates, so the associates are less inclined to jump ship. Also, associate hours at big banks are like 80-100 hours a week.

They’re honestly probably going to try to hire more people, work them less, pay them like 175-200, but will probably offer smaller bonuses (still huge, but like 100 to top bucket).

TLDR: banking raises =/= biglaw raises. Apples or oranges comparison.


although I imagine HF/PE hiring has slowed down significantly over the last few years, so I don't think you're reasoning there is correct.

and bankers might spend more hours in the office, but their "billable" time is definitely waayyy lower. and its only bad as an analyst, associates and up work way less.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby buttholesurfer » Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm

jd20132013 wrote:yep if I were Crabath I wouldn’t ever raise first year salaries again

Literally any top 25 grad can do those jobs


Marxist fallacies are alive and well, I see.

jd20132013

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby jd20132013 » Wed May 02, 2018 1:26 am

buttholesurfer wrote:
jd20132013 wrote:yep if I were Crabath I wouldn’t ever raise first year salaries again

Literally any top 25 grad can do those jobs


Marxist fallacies are alive and well, I see.



??

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2018 1:28 am

Anyone at a V5 noticing abnormally high mid-level attrition? That's the important factor.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2018 2:54 am

Yup. Attrition is higher than last year at my firm.

2013

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby 2013 » Sat May 12, 2018 6:39 am

Midlevel attrition should not lead to a higher starting salary for first years. I think that bigger bonuses will start to be given, especially to midlevel and senior associates. I mean, it’s already happening at boutiques and at Kirkland.

Cravath raised to 180 but kept its bonus structure untouched. Maybe if it changed the bonuses, maybe more midlevels would stay.

A lot of in-house jobs have incentive bonuses and stock options that biglaw has to compete with, so maybe bonuses that are like 1.5x Cravath wouldndo the trick of lower attrition at the higher levels.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby KM2016 » Sat May 12, 2018 10:08 pm

2013 wrote:Midlevel attrition should not lead to a higher starting salary for first years. I think that bigger bonuses will start to be given, especially to midlevel and senior associates. I mean, it’s already happening at boutiques and at Kirkland.

Cravath raised to 180 but kept its bonus structure untouched. Maybe if it changed the bonuses, maybe more midlevels would stay.

A lot of in-house jobs have incentive bonuses and stock options that biglaw has to compete with, so maybe bonuses that are like 1.5x Cravath wouldndo the trick of lower attrition at the higher levels.


While I understand your though process re bonuses, I don't necessarily agree. Remember, bonuses are not guaranteed compensation, especially with the way that many firms have put strings attached to bonuses, upped hours requirements, etc. Personally, as a mid-level, while I'd love a bigger bonus, I'd prefer a hike to my base salary since its guaranteed.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2018 11:42 pm

KM2016 wrote:
2013 wrote:Midlevel attrition should not lead to a higher starting salary for first years. I think that bigger bonuses will start to be given, especially to midlevel and senior associates. I mean, it’s already happening at boutiques and at Kirkland.

Cravath raised to 180 but kept its bonus structure untouched. Maybe if it changed the bonuses, maybe more midlevels would stay.

A lot of in-house jobs have incentive bonuses and stock options that biglaw has to compete with, so maybe bonuses that are like 1.5x Cravath wouldndo the trick of lower attrition at the higher levels.


While I understand your though process re bonuses, I don't necessarily agree. Remember, bonuses are not guaranteed compensation, especially with the way that many firms have put strings attached to bonuses, upped hours requirements, etc. Personally, as a mid-level, while I'd love a bigger bonus, I'd prefer a hike to my base salary since its guaranteed.



I get what you’re saying as well, but the next jump will realistically only be the firms that essentially have guaranteed bonuses, aka the most elite firms. So raising bonuses probably will be better.

Raising both salary and bonus would be great, though.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby KM2016 » Thu May 31, 2018 2:25 am

Well this is interesting...Weil cutting 2 years off of partnership track in hopes to retain midlevels due to rising attrition rates. You know what else will "prompt more fourth- and fifth-year associates to stay at Weil, rather than jump to a competitor or an in-house career...?" MOAR MONEY.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/05/30/weil-gotshal-shortens-path-to-partnership-in-bid-to-retain-associates/

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nealric

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby nealric » Thu May 31, 2018 8:30 am

KM2016 wrote:Well this is interesting...Weil cutting 2 years off of partnership track in hopes to retain midlevels due to rising attrition rates. You know what else will "prompt more fourth- and fifth-year associates to stay at Weil, rather than jump to a competitor or an in-house career...?" MOAR MONEY.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/05/30/weil-gotshal-shortens-path-to-partnership-in-bid-to-retain-associates/


As a former midlevel, I will say a realistic chance at partnership would have meant more to me than a bit more money (not saying that' really what Weil is offering).

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Cobretti

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Cobretti » Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 am

nealric wrote:
KM2016 wrote:Well this is interesting...Weil cutting 2 years off of partnership track in hopes to retain midlevels due to rising attrition rates. You know what else will "prompt more fourth- and fifth-year associates to stay at Weil, rather than jump to a competitor or an in-house career...?" MOAR MONEY.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/05/30/weil-gotshal-shortens-path-to-partnership-in-bid-to-retain-associates/


As a former midlevel, I will say a realistic chance at partnership would have meant more to me than a bit more money (not saying that' really what Weil is offering).

Does this really make it more realistic though? I don't think this means they will be making more partners total. This should only be a perceived benefit to people that view themselves as on track to make partner, and now they think it will be worth it to stick around and try to do it at Weil because its less risky for them than it would be to wait until they are a 10th year. Granted these are the people they are probably most concerned with retaining, so I'm not saying it isn't a good policy, just saying this probably isn't going to really affect retention rates of most of your rank and file midlevels that aren't in it to win it.

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nealric

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby nealric » Thu May 31, 2018 1:12 pm

Cobretti wrote:
nealric wrote:
KM2016 wrote:Well this is interesting...Weil cutting 2 years off of partnership track in hopes to retain midlevels due to rising attrition rates. You know what else will "prompt more fourth- and fifth-year associates to stay at Weil, rather than jump to a competitor or an in-house career...?" MOAR MONEY.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/05/30/weil-gotshal-shortens-path-to-partnership-in-bid-to-retain-associates/


As a former midlevel, I will say a realistic chance at partnership would have meant more to me than a bit more money (not saying that' really what Weil is offering).

Does this really make it more realistic though? I don't think this means they will be making more partners total. This should only be a perceived benefit to people that view themselves as on track to make partner, and now they think it will be worth it to stick around and try to do it at Weil because its less risky for them than it would be to wait until they are a 10th year. Granted these are the people they are probably most concerned with retaining, so I'm not saying it isn't a good policy, just saying this probably isn't going to really affect retention rates of most of your rank and file midlevels that aren't in it to win it.


As I said, I don't think accelerating the partnership track makes it more realistic. Just saying that it would be more important than being paid more. At the end of the day a difference of $20-$30k isn't going to be enough to keep people around if they were already thinking of leaving.

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Cobretti

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Cobretti » Thu May 31, 2018 1:23 pm

nealric wrote:
Cobretti wrote:
nealric wrote:
KM2016 wrote:Well this is interesting...Weil cutting 2 years off of partnership track in hopes to retain midlevels due to rising attrition rates. You know what else will "prompt more fourth- and fifth-year associates to stay at Weil, rather than jump to a competitor or an in-house career...?" MOAR MONEY.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/05/30/weil-gotshal-shortens-path-to-partnership-in-bid-to-retain-associates/


As a former midlevel, I will say a realistic chance at partnership would have meant more to me than a bit more money (not saying that' really what Weil is offering).

Does this really make it more realistic though? I don't think this means they will be making more partners total. This should only be a perceived benefit to people that view themselves as on track to make partner, and now they think it will be worth it to stick around and try to do it at Weil because its less risky for them than it would be to wait until they are a 10th year. Granted these are the people they are probably most concerned with retaining, so I'm not saying it isn't a good policy, just saying this probably isn't going to really affect retention rates of most of your rank and file midlevels that aren't in it to win it.


As I said, I don't think accelerating the partnership track makes it more realistic. Just saying that it would be more important than being paid more. At the end of the day a difference of $20-$30k isn't going to be enough to keep people around if they were already thinking of leaving.

I think we all think about leaving in the back of our minds every day, the question is more when. Higher compensation could maybe make some people push back their timeline, which is ultimately what the firms are hoping for rather than making everyone believe they will be partner one day.

If any V5 comp committee partners read this: there are plenty of us willing to selllease our souls for longer at the right price

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:42 am

V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Fletch23 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).


Interesting. Are most headed to other firms, or going in-house?

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:38 pm

My NYC firm is bleeding too. People are going to other firms in other markets where the pay is the same or taking a business role somewhere. We're hiring many more laterals than we use to

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).

What is the standard amount of attrition at a V10 after three years?

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Fletch23 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).

What is the standard amount of attrition at a V10 after three years?


Historically, it is 50%. 80% by the conclusion of year five.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Wild Card » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:53 am

Fletch23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).

What is the standard amount of attrition at a V10 after three years?


Historically, it is 50%. 80% by the conclusion of year five.


The deadliest cancers have better five-year survival rates. LJL.

I want to ask what percentage of departing associates do so voluntarily, but now that I've kept track of and spoken to many of the associates who've left my firm, I myself couldn't say.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby MillllerTime » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:27 am

Wild Card wrote:
Fletch23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V10 firm here- can confirm we are bleeding mid-levels. 3 years in and more than 60% of my starting class has jumped ship (whether voluntarily or no).

What is the standard amount of attrition at a V10 after three years?


Historically, it is 50%. 80% by the conclusion of year five.


The deadliest cancers have better five-year survival rates. LJL.

I want to ask what percentage of departing associates do so voluntarily, but now that I've kept track of and spoken to many of the associates who've left my firm, I myself couldn't say.


Well this seems unnecessarily dark. Most associates I know are not clinging to their biglaw job like it's their life. Probably closer to inverse.



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