Soonest quitting as a first-year Forum

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:40 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a question for the anon OP considering going back to a sales role:
I'm considering a big law gig or taking a sales role in a large, well-known tech firm. The job is similar to an account manager type position where you work with clients and have sales quotas to meet each year. Salary is around 120k, 40k signing bonus, and stock. I'm wondering whether it's worth taking this job over big law. My hesitation is sales and whether it leads to good exit opportunities (say I want to work in strategy/operations or some other business role later). I don't mind not practicing law, I just want to choose the career that leads to good future opportunities and ideally doesn't have crazy hours like big law.
-Assumings your big tech firm is a LinkedIn, Amazon, Salesforce, etc... you'll very likely keep pace with biglaw comp through to senior associate, but you'll likely never make biglaw partner compensation unless you make VP of Sales (you'll still make less than biglaw partner comp but there are tons of Sales VPs in Big Tech that are printing $500k-$600k).
Biglaw partners in (some markets) at (some firms) might make more than a VP of Sales, but who do you think, on average, works more? I bet dollar per hour the VP of Sales works half as much.
I'd say that's definitely a safe bet, except with Amazon. Depending on what team you land on, Amazon can be ridiculous. They have released some terrible press lately in the last few years though over this and I've heard they're trying to change their image. So they might have improved on this front recently, but I do know some Amazon people that work really rough hours.
Anonymous User wrote:Well first of all a fifty percent pay cut from biglaw is an immense amount of money lol. But in any case I always advise folks to make it a year unless they're like...near a breakdown. Get your bonus and see if you don't get better at it

Not if you're only working 50% or less of the hours

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by 1styearlateral » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a question for the anon OP considering going back to a sales role:
I'm considering a big law gig or taking a sales role in a large, well-known tech firm. The job is similar to an account manager type position where you work with clients and have sales quotas to meet each year. Salary is around 120k, 40k signing bonus, and stock. I'm wondering whether it's worth taking this job over big law. My hesitation is sales and whether it leads to good exit opportunities (say I want to work in strategy/operations or some other business role later). I don't mind not practicing law, I just want to choose the career that leads to good future opportunities and ideally doesn't have crazy hours like big law.
-Assumings your big tech firm is a LinkedIn, Amazon, Salesforce, etc... you'll very likely keep pace with biglaw comp through to senior associate, but you'll likely never make biglaw partner compensation unless you make VP of Sales (you'll still make less than biglaw partner comp but there are tons of Sales VPs in Big Tech that are printing $500k-$600k).
Biglaw partners in (some markets) at (some firms) might make more than a VP of Sales, but who do you think, on average, works more? I bet dollar per hour the VP of Sales works half as much.
I'd say that's definitely a safe bet, except with Amazon. Depending on what team you land on, Amazon can be ridiculous. They have released some terrible press lately in the last few years though over this and I've heard they're trying to change their image. So they might have improved on this front recently, but I do know some Amazon people that work really rough hours.
Amazon notoriously runs its legal department like biglaw. Amazon is definitely an outlier.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by mrs.miawallace » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:Had a peer a few years back quit big Law after a couple weeks, and this was someone who came off of a clerkship. It was very surprising.

What..? I hope there was no claw-back on his bonus

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Miznitic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:12 pm

When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:13 pm

Is anyone sick of biglaw at this point in their first year already too?

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Miznitic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:47 pm

When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:54 pm

I mean I wish there was a way to quit clerkship lol

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bruinfan10

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by bruinfan10 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:07 pm

Miznitic wrote:When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.
I always thought leaving before the 2 year mark flagged you as "not being able to cut it" or as having potentially been fired. Generous to only apply that to leaving during the first year.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:02 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Miznitic wrote:When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.
I always thought leaving before the 2 year mark flagged you as "not being able to cut it" or as having potentially been fired. Generous to only apply that to leaving during the first year.
Biglaw midlevel, previous lateral, been on hiring committee for a couple of years at my current firm.

Not sure about the firms you two work at, but the idea that a youngish associate has the power to make a firm "not take chances" on a lateral candidate because they don't meet the associate's 1-2 year job stability threshold is kind of laughable.

Then again maybe your firms operate differently.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by jd20132013 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Miznitic wrote:When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.
I always thought leaving before the 2 year mark flagged you as "not being able to cut it" or as having potentially been fired. Generous to only apply that to leaving during the first year.
Way too many people leave before two years for this to be sensible

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by bruinfan10 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
Miznitic wrote:When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.
I always thought leaving before the 2 year mark flagged you as "not being able to cut it" or as having potentially been fired. Generous to only apply that to leaving during the first year.
Biglaw midlevel, previous lateral, been on hiring committee for a couple of years at my current firm.

Not sure about the firms you two work at, but the idea that a youngish associate has the power to make a firm "not take chances" on a lateral candidate because they don't meet the associate's 1-2 year job stability threshold is kind of laughable.

Then again maybe your firms operate differently.
My firm (and committee) operates very differently than yours. No need to take it personally.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Miznitic » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:59 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Miznitic wrote:When I see an associate with less than a year of experience at a particular firm, I assume they were fired. I don't take chances with those candidates.
I always thought leaving before the 2 year mark flagged you as "not being able to cut it" or as having potentially been fired. Generous to only apply that to leaving during the first year.
Pay attention to, "less than a year." One year or more is fine in most circumstances. Six months? No.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:20 pm

Just quit my firm after 9 months. I was luckily able to lateral, luckily, into a job I've been trying to get for years. FWIW, the job market seems pretty good as there are a fair amount of firms looking for juniors. But your results may vary.

I think if you have a legitimate answer that explains why you're leaving so soon (i.e. one that doesn't bash the firm/people) most employers seem to buy it. Obviously, as shown above, people will have differing views on this, but there's hope out there for the miserable.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:30 pm

Three months into biglaw and already shooting out apps. I have loans but tbh really don’t care. Hoping to see some traction after bar results in January. I’d honestly go down to like $60k a year for a job with regular hours, legal or not, and never look back. IBR here I come. This shit isn’t worth the “optics” of making it a full year or two

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:30 pm
Three months into biglaw and already shooting out apps. I have loans but tbh really don’t care. Hoping to see some traction after bar results in January. I’d honestly go down to like $60k a year for a job with regular hours, legal or not, and never look back. IBR here I come. This shit isn’t worth the “optics” of making it a full year or two
I'm only like a month in and I also feel this way. I'm already exhausted because I keep getting stuck with weekend and late night work. I feel like I'm on call 24/7. But I also don't even get assignments during the day/normal hours, so my hours aren't even that great. Hoping it gets better in the new year....

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by emc91 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:30 pm
Three months into biglaw and already shooting out apps. I have loans but tbh really don’t care. Hoping to see some traction after bar results in January. I’d honestly go down to like $60k a year for a job with regular hours, legal or not, and never look back. IBR here I come. This shit isn’t worth the “optics” of making it a full year or two
Does WFH make it more bearable for you? WFH has made biglaw okay for me so far, but if we have to go back five days a week, I won’t be able to leave quickly enough.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Elston Gunn » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:30 pm
Three months into biglaw and already shooting out apps. I have loans but tbh really don’t care. Hoping to see some traction after bar results in January. I’d honestly go down to like $60k a year for a job with regular hours, legal or not, and never look back. IBR here I come. This shit isn’t worth the “optics” of making it a full year or two
Do you, but I’d caution against making a huge decision so quickly. There were 3 month periods where I was really unhappy in Big Law, but there were also much longer stretches when I thought it was fine, and easily worth the money and marketability I was gaining. This may just be a really bad three months. It also gets better as you start to understand what is being asked of you more.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:15 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:30 pm
Three months into biglaw and already shooting out apps. I have loans but tbh really don’t care. Hoping to see some traction after bar results in January. I’d honestly go down to like $60k a year for a job with regular hours, legal or not, and never look back. IBR here I come. This shit isn’t worth the “optics” of making it a full year or two
Do you, but I’d caution against making a huge decision so quickly. There were 3 month periods where I was really unhappy in Big Law, but there were also much longer stretches when I thought it was fine, and easily worth the money and marketability I was gaining. This may just be a really bad three months. It also gets better as you start to understand what is being asked of you more.
Thanks, appreciate the input. The thing is, it hasn’t even been a really bad three months, it’s just that everyone’s lives look progressively worse to me the more senior they are and the more responsibility they have. If anything, I’ve had it easy so far. It’s the fact that when I log on at 8am (after a full night’s sleep, mind you) everyone I’m working with has been “away 6 hours.” If that’s what I have to look forward to, I don’t want it. And I’m fully prepared for the job search to take 6+ months, so I figured I should get the ball rolling.

In response to the other poster above, I know my firm wants first-years back in the office ASAP, and we don’t get our own offices, so I’d like to be out before that happens. I imagine the job search will be a lot more difficult working in person in shared offices.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:27 pm

Also just started. Found out that a firm that is more reputable in my practice area is looking for associates. Would it be weird to apply even though I just started? If so, how would I apply (through website, contacting hiring partner, etc.)

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:15 pm
It’s the fact that when I log on at 8am (after a full night’s sleep, mind you) everyone I’m working with has been “away 6 hours.
Please don't think away times are telling of how much anyone is working really in any way. One of the benefits of billable hours is, well, we know how much people are working. Most firms have targets of around 2000 hours -- take your current hours, extrapolate how much would change if you were billing 2,200 hours, and try to determine how awful it would be for you. As you get more senior, you generally bill more of the hours you are in the office as well.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:36 am
Please don't think away times are telling of how much anyone is working really in any way. One of the benefits of billable hours is, well, we know how much people are working. Most firms have targets of around 2000 hours -- take your current hours, extrapolate how much would change if you were billing 2,200 hours, and try to determine how awful it would be for you. As you get more senior, you generally bill more of the hours you are in the office as well.
Not same anon, but what percentage of their hours worked do efficient and focused first-years typically bill? Even ballpark is fine. I am not sure that I would even be willing to bill 2,000 if doing so requires me to work 3,000.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:47 am

Ramp up time is really difficult to tell between firms and practice groups so first year numbers is tough to guage. I'd say 80-90% billable rate is about right on average over a year for 2nd-4th years depending on group work amount and how long you can work without a break

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:22 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:36 am
Please don't think away times are telling of how much anyone is working really in any way. One of the benefits of billable hours is, well, we know how much people are working. Most firms have targets of around 2000 hours -- take your current hours, extrapolate how much would change if you were billing 2,200 hours, and try to determine how awful it would be for you. As you get more senior, you generally bill more of the hours you are in the office as well.
Not same anon, but what percentage of their hours worked do efficient and focused first-years typically bill? Even ballpark is fine. I am not sure that I would even be willing to bill 2,000 if doing so requires me to work 3,000.
I’m the anon thinking about quitting, and fwiw consider myself to be pretty focused (idk what an “efficient” first year is). I bill about 70% of the time I’m sitting at or near my computer.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 am
I’m the anon thinking about quitting, and fwiw consider myself to be pretty focused (idk what an “efficient” first year is). I bill about 70% of the time I’m sitting at or near my computer.
Numbers are likely higher with WFH -- being a first year in the office, this number could range from 5% to 90%.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Post by emc91 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:29 am
I’m the anon thinking about quitting, and fwiw consider myself to be pretty focused (idk what an “efficient” first year is). I bill about 70% of the time I’m sitting at or near my computer.
Numbers are likely higher with WFH -- being a first year in the office, this number could range from 5% to 90%.
God I never want to go back. I’m so much less productive in the office.

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