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Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:45 pm
by L_William_W
After three attempts, I passed the NY Bar. I'm still waiting to get admitted in NY. I also passed the NJ bar back in 2015. I'm currently working part time in a non-legal field. I desperately need money. I'm 32 (33 in January), live with my parents, and am over $100,000 in debt.

There's a document review position that I'm interested in, but it requires experience. I don't have experience. However, I'm more than willing to learn Relativity. In fact, there are a million YouTube videos that explain how to use Relativity. I'm thinking of falsely stating that I have experience and then using the name of a document review firm on my resume. Is this a reasonable idea?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:46 pm
by UVA2B
...you’re joking, right?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:49 pm
by mvp99
UVA2B wrote:...you’re joking, right?


I give him/her a C- just for the attempt.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:50 pm
by ManoftheHour
In case this isn't a troll, no. You will lose your license.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:01 pm
by SomewhatLearnedHand
Come on...you know this is not ok...right?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:04 pm
by SFSpartan
JFC. In case you aren't a troll - don't do this. How you managed to go through life for nearly 33 years without realizing that this is both wrong and stupid is beyond me.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:19 pm
by L_William_W
I'm not a troll. I'm a desperate person who is on the verge of defaulting. I KNOW I can do this job, but I'm stuck in the lack of experience conundrum. I will spend an entire week learning Relativity. I just want to get my foot in the door. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who has ever embellished on their resume.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:23 pm
by SomewhatLearnedHand
Theres a huge difference between embellishing on a resume and flat out lying about experience you don't have.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 pm
by cavalier1138
L_William_W wrote:I'm not a troll. I'm a desperate person who is on the verge of defaulting. I KNOW I can do this job, but I'm stuck in the lack of experience conundrum. I will spend an entire week learning Relativity. I just want to get my foot in the door. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who has ever embellished on their resume.


You took the bar 3 times, and you still haven't figured out that lying is bad?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:57 pm
by ClubberLang
Why don't you learn relativity on youtube now, then add it as a skill in your resume?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:09 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
OP, what do you do when the place you want to apply to contacts the document review firm to confirm your dates of employment?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:10 pm
by haus
cavalier1138 wrote:
You took the bar 3 times, and you still haven't figured out that lying is bad?

Well... president Trump has not yet figured out it, so it should not come as much of a surprise that others might struggle with this idea.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:14 pm
by LaLiLuLeLo
haus wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
You took the bar 3 times, and you still haven't figured out that lying is bad?

Well... president Trump has not yet figured out it, so it should not come as much of a surprise that others might struggle with this idea.


Wew, hot take.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:32 pm
by EliotAlderson
ClubberLang wrote:Why don't you learn relativity on youtube now, then add it as a skill in your resume?


This

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:34 pm
by estefanchanning
You guys OP is desperate cut him some slack. Obvi he knows this is wrong. He just wants reassurance that chances of getting caught are low.

OP, if you're gonna lie, don't be so blatant. Instead, why don't you start learning Relativity and add that to your skills? Also, can you you somehow tie past work experience to doc review? Like if you worked at a law office, say you did doc review for them even if just once etc.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:40 pm
by SomewhatLearnedHand
estefanchanning wrote:You guys OP is desperate cut him some slack. Obvi he knows this is wrong. He just wants reassurance that chances of getting caught are low.

OP, if you're gonna lie, don't be so blatant. Instead, why don't you start learning Relativity and add that to your skills? Also, can you you somehow tie past work experience to doc review? Like if you worked at a law office, say you did doc review for them even if just once etc.


We're advising him not to flat out lie about the fact that he worked somewhere. Its absolutely in his best interest not to do that.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:42 pm
by L_William_W
estefanchanning wrote:You guys OP is desperate cut him some slack. Obvi he knows this is wrong. He just wants reassurance that chances of getting caught are low.

OP, if you're gonna lie, don't be so blatant. Instead, why don't you start learning Relativity and add that to your skills? Also, can you you somehow tie past work experience to doc review? Like if you worked at a law office, say you did doc review for them even if just once etc.


That's actually a good idea. I'll scrap the original idea (which in retrospect was stupid), but mention Relativity as a skill and maybe say that I did doc review during my law school clinics.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:45 pm
by haus
There is a volunteer project connected to the Minnesota Justice Foundation which is reviewing historical deeds for the presence of racial covenants.

I do not see any reason why you cannot sign up, do some work for the project and reference it.

ETA:
The project itself is called Mapping Prejudice (https://www.mappingprejudice.org)

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:46 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
What kind of clinics? For most clinics I don't think it's going to be at all convincing to say that you did doc review for them (because the point of clinics is to give students active legal work, not doc review).

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:52 pm
by ClubberLang
L_William_W wrote:
estefanchanning wrote:You guys OP is desperate cut him some slack. Obvi he knows this is wrong. He just wants reassurance that chances of getting caught are low.

OP, if you're gonna lie, don't be so blatant. Instead, why don't you start learning Relativity and add that to your skills? Also, can you you somehow tie past work experience to doc review? Like if you worked at a law office, say you did doc review for them even if just once etc.


That's actually a good idea. I'll scrap the original idea (which in retrospect was stupid), but mention Relativity as a skill and maybe say that I did doc review during my law school clinics.


No. What part of this don't you get? Don't lie. If you get an interview, and they ask you where you learned Relativity, say that you learned it on your own to make yourself more marketable. They'll think you are a go getter.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:15 pm
by zhenders
I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:41 pm
by northwood
Don't do it.
Learn the skill, but don't lie about it.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:02 pm
by Anonymous User
zhenders wrote:I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.


The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country. (And to be clear, my curiosity is intellectual; I'm not advocating OP do one thing or another here.)

Do you all really think lying in this profession is so rare that it ought to be a clear, governing, bright-line test that distinguishes what you can do from what others in fact do in this profession? People lie about their race/ethnicity in law school admissions to gain URM/affirmative action advantages (E. Warren is just the most prominent example); people lie to their professors about why their assignments are late or faulty; about what background skills in preparation for a plumb school gig they have; about why they are enrolling in law school in the first place; about which firms they are going out for during on-campus interviews; about how they are studying for their exams and what supplemental services they pay for; in their cover letters and interviews for clerkships; etc etc etc. And I haven't even *begun* to list the many ways in which practicing attorneys lie -- to supervisors, clients, judges, etc.

Some of these lies are "bigger" than others, but then it seems the question is not about lying, it's about whether you can get caught lying. So the permissibility of the practice then turns on the cost-benefit analysis, nothing more. And to those who respond with a distinction between "white" and "grey" and "black" lies, then you're playing a very different game altogether. In that game, how is lying about working for an employer X different than saying (eg) your parents are immigrants of country Y and that you're a first-generation college grad?

To me it seems a more realistic picture of working law in this country counsels that OP pay less attention to flat bans on lying and more on questions like a few posts ago, about what he might say in an interviewer when the firm asks for a reference to verify the claim on his resume.

Why play by a set of rules that no one (or very few others) play by?

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:06 pm
by zhenders
Anonymous User wrote:
zhenders wrote:I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.


The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country. (And to be clear, my curiosity is intellectual; I'm not advocating OP do one thing or another here.)

Do you all really think lying in this profession is so rare that it ought to be a clear, governing, bright-line test that distinguishes what you can do from what others in fact do in this profession? People lie about their race/ethnicity in law school admissions to gain URM/affirmative action advantages (E. Warren is just the most prominent example); people lie to their professors about why their assignments are late or faulty; about what background skills in preparation for a plumb school gig they have; about why they are enrolling in law school in the first place; about which firms they are going out for during on-campus interviews; about how they are studying for their exams and what supplemental services they pay for; in their cover letters and interviews for clerkships; etc etc etc. And I haven't even *begun* to list the many ways in which practicing attorneys lie -- to supervisors, clients, judges, etc.

Some of these lies are "bigger" than others, but then it seems the question is not about lying, it's about whether you can get caught lying. So the permissibility of the practice then turns on the cost-benefit analysis, nothing more. And to those who respond with a distinction between "white" and "grey" and "black" lies, then you're playing a very different game altogether. In that game, how is lying about working for an employer X different than saying (eg) your parents are immigrants of country Y and that you're a first-generation college grad?

To me it seems a more realistic picture of working law in this country counsels that OP pay less attention to flat bans on lying and more on questions like a few posts ago, about what he might say in an interviewer when the firm asks for a reference to verify the claim on his resume.

Why play by a set of rules that no one (or very few others) play by?


Blatantly saying, "I worked at X and have Y experience" when you have never done anything close to working at X and do not have any experience even close to Y is wholly inexcusable. We're not talking about rounding up on your hours report here. Whether there is a bright line to follow or not is entirely beside the point; if there's a gigantic, super fuzzy line that makes a lot of questions difficult, this is still about ten miles on the wrong side of it.

Exceptional use of anon, though.

Re: Lying on resume

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:16 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Anonymous User wrote:
zhenders wrote:I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.


The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country. (And to be clear, my curiosity is intellectual; I'm not advocating OP do one thing or another here.)

Do you all really think lying in this profession is so rare that it ought to be a clear, governing, bright-line test that distinguishes what you can do from what others in fact do in this profession? People lie about their race/ethnicity in law school admissions to gain URM/affirmative action advantages (E. Warren is just the most prominent example); people lie to their professors about why their assignments are late or faulty; about what background skills in preparation for a plumb school gig they have; about why they are enrolling in law school in the first place; about which firms they are going out for during on-campus interviews; about how they are studying for their exams and what supplemental services they pay for; in their cover letters and interviews for clerkships; etc etc etc. And I haven't even *begun* to list the many ways in which practicing attorneys lie -- to supervisors, clients, judges, etc.

Some of these lies are "bigger" than others, but then it seems the question is not about lying, it's about whether you can get caught lying. So the permissibility of the practice then turns on the cost-benefit analysis, nothing more. And to those who respond with a distinction between "white" and "grey" and "black" lies, then you're playing a very different game altogether. In that game, how is lying about working for an employer X different than saying (eg) your parents are immigrants of country Y and that you're a first-generation college grad?

To me it seems a more realistic picture of working law in this country counsels that OP pay less attention to flat bans on lying and more on questions like a few posts ago, about what he might say in an interviewer when the firm asks for a reference to verify the claim on his resume.

Why play by a set of rules that no one (or very few others) play by?

Because just because other people don't care about their integrity still doesn't make it okay to lie. I'm sorry you seem to know so many law students/lawyers who are shitty people.

Also your emphasis on people lying about their ethicity/background to get into law school is kind of weird.