Lying on resume

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Samarcan
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby Samarcan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:37 pm

.
Last edited by Samarcan on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pancakes3
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby pancakes3 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
zhenders wrote:I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.


The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country. (And to be clear, my curiosity is intellectual; I'm not advocating OP do one thing or another here.)

Do you all really think lying in this profession is so rare that it ought to be a clear, governing, bright-line test that distinguishes what you can do from what others in fact do in this profession? People lie about their race/ethnicity in law school admissions to gain URM/affirmative action advantages (E. Warren is just the most prominent example); people lie to their professors about why their assignments are late or faulty; about what background skills in preparation for a plumb school gig they have; about why they are enrolling in law school in the first place; about which firms they are going out for during on-campus interviews; about how they are studying for their exams and what supplemental services they pay for; in their cover letters and interviews for clerkships; etc etc etc. And I haven't even *begun* to list the many ways in which practicing attorneys lie -- to supervisors, clients, judges, etc.

Some of these lies are "bigger" than others, but then it seems the question is not about lying, it's about whether you can get caught lying. So the permissibility of the practice then turns on the cost-benefit analysis, nothing more. And to those who respond with a distinction between "white" and "grey" and "black" lies, then you're playing a very different game altogether. In that game, how is lying about working for an employer X different than saying (eg) your parents are immigrants of country Y and that you're a first-generation college grad?

To me it seems a more realistic picture of working law in this country counsels that OP pay less attention to flat bans on lying and more on questions like a few posts ago, about what he might say in an interviewer when the firm asks for a reference to verify the claim on his resume.

Why play by a set of rules that no one (or very few others) play by?

Because just because other people don't care about their integrity still doesn't make it okay to lie. I'm sorry you seem to know so many law students/lawyers who are shitty people.

Also your emphasis on people lying about their ethicity/background to get into law school is kind of weird.


I emphasized that point because I anticipated other posters will respond to my first post by distinguishing the other cases of lying by exploiting vagueness principles ("blatantly lying about whether you worked at firm X is not like rounding up your hours," etc.). The ethnicity case does seem like this one -- it's on the "right side" of the use of the "blatancy" test, if you just want to stipulate the relevant test to use.

I'm actually kind of surprised you think my emphasis on that point is weird, if by weird it strikes you as unusual, given how many people who are in a position to use it either do use it or at least think about using it. (Maybe you think I'm just very cynical.)

Finally, the point about integrity seems a little unproductive. If OP is considering doing what he's considering doing, the moral system that renders lying a veto on some contemplated action may not be the one he shares with you (if it was, he wouldn't be considering this action). So raising the integrity point is kind of like pointing to a prohibition in the Bible when an atheist asks what he can and cannot do -- the presuppositions may not apply.

I don't think anything I'd say further would be helpful for OP, so I'll just leave it there.


so, why anon?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Because just because other people don't care about their integrity still doesn't make it okay to lie. I'm sorry you seem to know so many law students/lawyers who are shitty people.

Also your emphasis on people lying about their ethicity/background to get into law school is kind of weird.

I emphasized that point because I anticipated other posters will respond to my first post by distinguishing the other cases of lying by exploiting vagueness principles ("blatantly lying about whether you worked at firm X is not like rounding up your hours," etc.). The ethnicity case does seem like this one -- it's on the "right side" of the use of the "blatancy" test, if you just want to stipulate the relevant test to use.

I'm actually kind of surprised you think my emphasis on that point is weird, if by weird it strikes you as unusual, given how many people who are in a position to use it either do use it or at least think about using it. (Maybe you think I'm just very cynical.)

Yeah, I think you're overly cynical about this. I don't think people are rampantly misrepresenting their ethnicity/background to get into law school. In fact, I reject your contention that it's not about lying, but about whether you get caught. Again, your selection of law students/lawyers sounds very depressing, or maybe it's just your view of the universe that's depressing.

Finally, the point about integrity seems a little unproductive. If OP is considering doing what he's considering doing, the moral system that renders lying a veto on some contemplated action may not be the one he shares with you (if it was, he wouldn't be considering this action). So raising the integrity point is kind of like pointing to a prohibition in the Bible when an atheist asks what he can and cannot do -- the presuppositions may not apply.

You asked a general question, I gave a general answer.

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cron1834
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby cron1834 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:24 am

That dude sounds like a college freshman who just finished his first ethics course. What a terrible couple of posts, with literally no point.

To the op: don’t be like that. Don’t be a liar.

L_William_W
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby L_William_W » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:00 am

The fact of the matter is that integrity won't pay my student loans or enable me to move out of my parent's house.

I knew a guy who did bankruptcies and foreclosures. Sometimes he would deliberately make bullshit discovery requests just to delay the foreclosure process. This is a dishonest field. There's no way that both a plaintiff and defendant in a civil suit are telling the 100% truth.

Anyway, I have to complete the 50 hour requirement in NY. But afterwards, I'm going to look into doc review. During my free time this month, I'll look at Relativity videos and hope that a potential employer will be impressed by the fact that I learned it, even though I don't have any actual experience. And after thinking about it, I realized that the amount of money I'd make from doc review wouldn't be worth getting disbarred if the Character and Fitness committee found out that I lied.

And haus, thanks for the link. I'll look into that.

cavalier1138
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:42 am

L_William_W wrote:The fact of the matter is that integrity won't pay my student loans or enable me to move out of my parent's house.

I knew a guy who did bankruptcies and foreclosures. Sometimes he would deliberately make bullshit discovery requests just to delay the foreclosure process. This is a dishonest field. There's no way that both a plaintiff and defendant in a civil suit are telling the 100% truth.


If you don't see the difference between making reasonable-but-likely-useless motions and lying about material facts, I'm predicting a long, difficult road ahead for you.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:16 am

OP, don't lie on your resume.

For larger legal issues, use your volunteer experience to learn how pleadings and forms work in family, LL/T, debtor/creditor, crim defense, low-level immigration, and various other parts of law that are commonly called "shitlaw." Find new places to volunteer. When you have no idea how a particular hearing works, look up court dockets and observe in court. Add skills to your resume as you get them and feel comfortable about them.

For doc review, you'll be doing first level stuff. If you can fill out a long-winded electronic form, you can use Relativity. The review centers will train you on Relativity's protocol, if only because protocol will change in every case. Because of that, many review centers think it's better to just retrain/give a quick refresher on Relativity on the first day of a review. If you really want to watch a video, but I can get you trained right now for general first level review protocol:

Look at this image. See how it just looks like a boring website? Good, because it is. And now it's your job.

Let's start with the various numbered areas. Look at Pane 2: See how it's a doc? Good. Review it. Read it. See what's highlighted, and compare those highlights to the terms in Pane 6: Those highlights mean something, and they were turned on by higher-up reviewers and IT. Maybe the terms are highlighted pink, because they indicate attorney-client privilege. Maybe they're red because they're a key search term that makes a document "relevant" (or "responsive"). Either way, read the document to see what it's about and pay attention to the highlights. EDIT: Keep in mind the highlights (or lack of highlights) may be false hits, and merely relying on them means you're error-prone. Too many errors and the law firm will hate you, and you won't get on another review. Read for context.

Now you're read it. Good. Review your coding manual given to you on day 1 of the review. Does the doc fit into a category of some sort? Good. Code it as such in Pane 4. If it's responsive, code it as such by clicking relevant buttons. If it's not responsive, code it as such. If the document contains privileged or litigation material, code it atty-client or work product. If it contains sensitive client material, code it confidential. Double check your protocol. If you have to look at related docs, those are called "families," usually emails and attachments. See Pane 5 for those docs. Maybe you code the family docs the same way, "family coding". Maybe you don't. Check your coding manual. See those blue buttons between Panes 4 & 5? Once you're done coding this doc, click "Save and Next" and go to the next doc. You'll see the counter in Pane 3 move up 1 number. Having trouble viewing the doc? Try a different viewer in Pane 1. Still having trouble? Mark it tech issue in Pane 4 and click save and next. Do that 60 times a minute, because that's what your superiors expect. Not enough time? Eh, sucks to be you. Wanna protest? Eh. Maybe listen to music or podcasts instead, and that's assuming your review center even lets you have your phone with you and also that they give you the wi-fi password. A lot of building basements have trouble even getting 3G for streaming.

All done? The number in Pane 3 says you're done? Good. You've done a batch of docs. Check them in. Before you do, since your job depends on you not making careless errors. Double check all the documents on the documents pane.You can run filters to see if you coded everything for responsiveness. You can run filters to make sure all your priv calls have notes or whatever too. Run some quick filters to clean up your careless errors you made because you got bored and also forgot your headphones. That overwhelming urge to rip your hair out over the pointlessness of this all? That's what's left of your dignity. Ignore that urge.

Afterwards, click on the batch set tab. Check in your completed set of docs that are hopefully perfect so someone on the quality control (QC) team doesn't come and ask you mundane questions about your competency in a way that someone who gets drunk on petty power can do. Then check out a new batch.

After you're done for the day, be happy that you often get paid weekly. Hope you're not 1099, though.

With that, you can add "Familiar with first level review using Relavity" somewhere on your resume. If it seemed like a quick and dirty lesson, take heart that someone on your review will know even less about how to use the software. Keep applying to reviews on the posselist. Don't worry, some review will need entry-level reviewers. It might not be until after Christmas, since it appears many don't like litgiation ruining the holidays.

tyroneslothrop1
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby tyroneslothrop1 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:59 pm

The disconnect between our profession's ostensible emphasis on truth and ethics and the daily practice of law is I think interesting. It can be difficult to distinguish zealous advocacy and a simple lie. Last week, I had an attorney attempt to bluff me away from pursuing certain discovery (i.e., the documents you are looking for don't say what you think). I persisted and the next day the attorney offered to dismiss his client in exchange for a waiver of costs. That attorney was almost certainly lying through his teeth, but that sort of thing occurs on a daily basis. If he'd gotten us to back off, that would have been good lawyering, right?

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deuceindc
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby deuceindc » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:29 pm

tyroneslothrop1 wrote:If he'd gotten us to back off, that would have been good lawyering, right?


No, that would have been lying. This really isn't as difficult as you (or other people in this tread) are making it seem.

Damage Over Time
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby Damage Over Time » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:30 pm

tyroneslothrop1 wrote: If he'd gotten us to back off, that would have been good lawyering, right?


a lie that leads to a positive outcome is still a lie

1styearlateral
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby 1styearlateral » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:20 pm

No need to lie because I’m pretty sure doc review positions are easy to land. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a doc review ad looking for 5+ years exp or anything.

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pancakes3
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:58 pm

L_William_W wrote:There's a document review position that I'm interested in, but it requires experience. I don't have experience.


this implies there are doc review positions you're not interested in?

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BVest
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby BVest » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:07 pm

mvp99 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:...you’re joking, right?


I give him/her a C- just for the attempt.


Why? There's no evidence OP attended a T13. An F is allowed.

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:50 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
zhenders wrote:I second what everyone else here has said.

1. Don't lie. I mean of all of the stupid things to do, you jump on a forum to get everyone's views on whether flat-out lying on your resume is a good idea? This is one of a VERY small handful of professions where your literal right to practice can be taken away--and this is one of a very small number of things you can do that can lead to that. Frankly, the fact that you're so seriously considering this makes me think you really shouldn't be a lawyer.

2. Look for pro bono opportunities to build your resume. If you need to make money, apply for restaurant jobs; make ends meet other ways. Don't lie and lose your license.

3. As others have suggested, learn the skills, and put that on your resume. Be prepared to talk about where you gained your skills. If you can find a way to learn that includes a certification, that's even better.

Don't lie on your resume.


The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country. (And to be clear, my curiosity is intellectual; I'm not advocating OP do one thing or another here.)

Do you all really think lying in this profession is so rare that it ought to be a clear, governing, bright-line test that distinguishes what you can do from what others in fact do in this profession? People lie about their race/ethnicity in law school admissions to gain URM/affirmative action advantages (E. Warren is just the most prominent example); people lie to their professors about why their assignments are late or faulty; about what background skills in preparation for a plumb school gig they have; about why they are enrolling in law school in the first place; about which firms they are going out for during on-campus interviews; about how they are studying for their exams and what supplemental services they pay for; in their cover letters and interviews for clerkships; etc etc etc. And I haven't even *begun* to list the many ways in which practicing attorneys lie -- to supervisors, clients, judges, etc.

Some of these lies are "bigger" than others, but then it seems the question is not about lying, it's about whether you can get caught lying. So the permissibility of the practice then turns on the cost-benefit analysis, nothing more. And to those who respond with a distinction between "white" and "grey" and "black" lies, then you're playing a very different game altogether. In that game, how is lying about working for an employer X different than saying (eg) your parents are immigrants of country Y and that you're a first-generation college grad?

To me it seems a more realistic picture of working law in this country counsels that OP pay less attention to flat bans on lying and more on questions like a few posts ago, about what he might say in an interviewer when the firm asks for a reference to verify the claim on his resume.

Why play by a set of rules that no one (or very few others) play by?

Because just because other people don't care about their integrity still doesn't make it okay to lie. I'm sorry you seem to know so many law students/lawyers who are shitty people.

Also your emphasis on people lying about their ethicity/background to get into law school is kind of weird.


Looks like a case of anon abuse to me Nony.

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Caesar Salad
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby Caesar Salad » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country.


Mask on

Samarcan wrote:I don't think anything I'd say further would be helpful for OP, so I'll just leave it there.


Fuck it, mask off

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BlendedUnicorn
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:46 pm

Caesar Salad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The overwhelming flavor of responses to OP makes me curious about whether TLS is a representative cross-section of lawyers in this country.


Mask on

Samarcan wrote:I don't think anything I'd say further would be helpful for OP, so I'll just leave it there.


Fuck it, mask off


I was too lazy to unmask both posts.

cavalier1138
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:11 pm

Caesar Salad wrote:
Samarcan wrote:I don't think anything I'd say further would be helpful for OP, so I'll just leave it there.


Fuck it, mask off


Shocker.

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davey jones
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby davey jones » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:35 pm

i have no advice but if ur gonna go ahead w/ this i can give u my number as a reference

i am currently unemployed and theyll probably be able to tell but i'll say so much nice shit i promise. definitely not going to out you or do something "honest" or whatever

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cron1834
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby cron1834 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:17 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Caesar Salad wrote:
Samarcan wrote:I don't think anything I'd say further would be helpful for OP, so I'll just leave it there.


Fuck it, mask off


Shocker.

Truly loathsome poster.

Babum
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Lying on resume

Postby Babum » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:35 pm

L_William_W wrote:
estefanchanning wrote:You guys OP is desperate cut him some slack. Obvi he knows this is wrong. He just wants reassurance that chances of getting caught are low.

OP, if you're gonna lie, don't be so blatant. Instead, why don't you start learning Relativity and add that to your skills? Also, can you you somehow tie past work experience to doc review? Like if you worked at a law office, say you did doc review for them even if just once etc.


That's actually a good idea. I'll scrap the original idea (which in retrospect was stupid), but mention Relativity as a skill and maybe say that I did doc review during my law school clinics.


That's another lie. Here's something to think about: the fact that they want someone with experience doesn't mean they won't take someone without experience. You can still apply and definitely list Relativity as a skill.

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lavarman84
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:41 pm

Is getting a doc review job that competitive? I'm not trying to shit on you, OP, but you might get the job even without experience (especially if you have Relativity as a skill on your resume).

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ggocat
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby ggocat » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:51 am

I'm sorry you're in a rough spot, OP.

But I'm disgusted by your post. I don't know if it's the lack of integrity or apparent stupidity that I'm most offended by.

Don't make the rest of us look like shit.

The answer to your question is "no."

kyle1978
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Lying on resume

Postby kyle1978 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:01 am

ggocat wrote:I'm sorry you're in a rough spot, OP.

But I'm disgusted by your post. I don't know if it's the lack of integrity or apparent stupidity that I'm most offended by.

Don't make the rest of us look like shit.

The answer to your question is "no."


I agree. Lying for a job is bottom of the barrel.

nyu2019maybeplease
Posts: 99
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:32 pm

Don't lie, and don't try to rationalize lying. Your post makes the rest of us look bad.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Lying on resume

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:28 pm

yea I'd lie my ass off. It's doc review not rocket science.




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