When do you start making money? T3 Forum

[Nebby]

Did you go to law school solely for the purpose of making money?

Did you? Dumb question

[Nebby]

Did you go to law school solely for the purpose of making money?

Did you attend law school without first understanding the bimodal salary distribution in the legal profession?

https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012 ... wyer-jobs/

Did you think this would be helpful?

[Nebby]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

After reading this thread, I doubt you will have a return on investment. You go to a t50. The absolute best case for you is making 50k after fighting to get a job at graduation (if you are one of the lucky half of your class that will get a job at all).

Some of the people in this thread were successful, but they are not what is likely.

You should have known all this before heading to school. All this information is publicly available.

Dumb post

[sparkytrainer]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

After reading this thread, I doubt you will have a return on investment. You go to a t50. The absolute best case for you is making 50k after fighting to get a job at graduation (if you are one of the lucky half of your class that will get a job at all).

Some of the people in this thread were successful, but they are not what is likely.

You should have known all this before heading to school. All this information is publicly available.

Dumb post

Cool bro

[cavalier1138]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

I mean, there's a chance, but how much of an investment are you talking about? And how are your grades?

If you have a lot of debt, you may have no choice but to go with a long-term PAYE payment plan.

[PorscheFanatic]

.

[Nebby]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

After reading this thread, I doubt you will have a return on investment. You go to a t50. The absolute best case for you is making 50k after fighting to get a job at graduation (if you are one of the lucky half of your class that will get a job at all).

Some of the people in this thread were successful, but they are not what is likely.

You should have known all this before heading to school. All this information is publicly available.

Dumb post

Cool bro

I wanted to make my thoughts publicly available

[Ken Kesey]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

After reading this thread, I doubt you will have a return on investment. You go to a t50. The absolute best case for you is making 50k after fighting to get a job at graduation (if you are one of the lucky half of your class that will get a job at all).

Some of the people in this thread were successful, but they are not what is likely.

You should have known all this before heading to school. All this information is publicly available.

Dumb post

#realtalkpost

Paying for a T3 law school is an objectively terrible decision.

[Anonymous User]

Do you have good grades, low debt, and are okay with working in tax?

If so, apply to NYU/GT tax LLM. I was at a T1 and did decently well in law school but struck out completely. Currently at one of those programs and had my job lined up since September. A good amount of my classmates got jobs already too. Salary ranges 85k to 105k right now. Most of the recruiting however will be done in the Spring and those offers usually range in the 105k to 120k range for accounting firms. Plus, you get another bite at the Big Law apple if you're into executive compensation.

[Johann]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

After reading this thread, I doubt you will have a return on investment. You go to a t50. The absolute best case for you is making 50k after fighting to get a job at graduation (if you are one of the lucky half of your class that will get a job at all).

Some of the people in this thread were successful, but they are not what is likely.

You should have known all this before heading to school. All this information is publicly available.

Dumb post

#realtalkpost

Paying for a T3 law school is an objectively terrible decision.

agreed. thank god for PAYE.

[FascinatedWanderer]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

Frankly, you seem like someone who's unable to put in the requisite research before hand and do a reasonable risk or cost/benefit analysis. I wouldn't count on making much money going forward.

[Aergia]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

Frankly, you seem like someone who's unable to put in the requisite research before hand and do a reasonable risk or cost/benefit analysis. I wouldn't count on making much money going forward.

Whoa, cool it. One bad decision doesn't mean automatic peasant for life.

[Nebby]

False.

I didnt expect to land in a pile of money but I expected a return on investment for my time/ effort at school. It seems like that will be possible with some hard work and luck. As long as I know there is a chance that is enough to keep me going.

Frankly, you seem like someone who's unable to put in the requisite research before hand and do a reasonable risk or cost/benefit analysis. I wouldn't count on making much money going forward.

Brave post

[1styearlateral]

This is exactly what I was looking for. I was wondering if something like this was possible and it seems that it is. Can you elaborate on how you did this? I will do my best to learn as much as possible. I know I will have to work hard and fight for it, but I am absolutely willing to do whatever it takes.

Any advice you can offer on lateraling or learning as fast as possible would be awesome!

This is pretty much it:

I haven't personally done this, but some of my friends have. Here's what worked for them

1) Do something super niche that's currently hot in big law. M&A, Cap markets, investment pool funds, etc. If you get super good at something, when you're a second or third year, it doesn't matter where you started, Biglaw will suck yo' d***.

2) A couple of my friends worked at a well-established small law that was later acquired by big law. Key here is to find a booming small law firm that has great clients in a niche business, preferably tangential to something currently hot in big law. Chances are high that they'll be acquired by a biglaw firm.

3) If you are flexible with location, apply to NY. Biglaw NY is constantly hiring. They need warm bodies.

My $10k bump was at my old firm but that's because I think they knew that I'd leave if they gave me any less. I also got a $5k bump automatically after being admitted.

The only real way to make more money in shit-midlaw is to lateral. As one poster said above, no small firm is going to give you a 50% raise because they like you (maybe if you bill 2800 hours/year you might be able to convince them).

[albanach]

Did you go to law school solely for the purpose of making money?

Did you attend law school without first understanding the bimodal salary distribution in the legal profession?

https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012 ... wyer-jobs/

Did you think this would be helpful?

Yes. It answer's your question. Many T3 graduates (and indeed many from higher ranked schools too) will never make more than they could have as an undergraduate and the majority of new lawyers earn somewhere between $40-60k.

And for those 0Ls reading the thread, it is a reminder of this fact.

[AVBucks4239]

Since someone else has opined on a possible transactional track, this is my perspective as a litigator entering my fourth year in December.

Step One: The first thing you need to do is hustle to make sure you get your first job. That is by far the most important thing--to land on your feet somewhere, damn near anywhere, and begin learning the ropes of practicing law. My story as to how I landed my first (and current) job is here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... a#p8464462

Do not begrudge small firms or what this board refers to as "shit law," because those firms will (usually) allow you to gain a ton of hands-on experience drafting motions, handling files, attending hearings, etc.

Step Two: The next thing to do is to make sure you do damn good work. This is a lot harder than it sounds because you don't really learn this stuff for a while. I was actually in hot water at my current firm for making small mistakes all the time, but I've pulled my head out of my ass by being maniacally organized, meeting all deadlines, and honing my craft as a legal writer.

My experience has been that doing good work for a partner leads him or her to giving you more work, and then that in turns leads to a niche. Probably 90% of my practice now comes from two partners who are going to retire soon, and I am probably in line to take over their biggest clients in two employer-related practice areas.

Step Three: If you do good work, and then start to niche down, you'll not just be marketable in your own firm, but you'll start to get noticed elsewhere. Judges, clients, and opposing counsel will notice you at hearings. Recruiters will start contacting you. Opposing counsel will ask you for beers after a hearing, and this in turn will turn into an informal interview of sorts to see if they can pry you away from your current firm.

My personal experience so far: started here in December of 2014. I've had several raises since then. I've also had multiple interviews and offers over the past year or so. One was to go to a small boutique firm, and another was to join a solo attorney and basically run his civil practice. I've also had multiple big law interviews, although no offers yet (not sure if I would take them, honestly, but did it for the interview experience).

These opportunities would provide raises, but I really like my current firm. The partners let me come and go as I please, I only have to bill 1,500 hours a year, and nobody slams something up my ass with just a day or two to go. I just got a nice little raise this summer, and the board advised that I might be getting another one here at the end of the year. I also have gotten wind that I'm on the right track for partnership, which would probably lead me to a pay of somewhere between $85-100k just five years out of law school. The mid-level partners here make about $120-150k, which is a huge number in my very LCOL area.

Honestly, though, everything comes back to doing good work. Doesn't matter if you're shit law or big law, if you do shit work, you'll get canned pretty quickly. I'm convinced the reason a lot of lawyers don't like practicing is because there are no shortcuts. This is a tough way to make a living--you'll have friends who are salesman dicking around on Twitter all day, and you're there billing your time to justify your existence. And you're keeping up with a ton of files and the civil rules and the local rules and the judge's rules and 20 emails a day and clients who just have the most unreasonable of expectations. It's tough. But if you hone down and do good work, you can do pretty well in this field.

To summarize: (1) get a job, any job; (2) do good work; (3) niche down if you can; (4) be social and professional with opposing counsel; (5) watch your email for recruiting emails and follow up; (5) do good work.

[AVBucks4239]

Yes. It answer's your question. Many T3 graduates (and indeed many from higher ranked schools too) will never make more than they could have as an undergraduate and the majority of new lawyers earn somewhere between $40-60k.

And for those 0Ls reading the thread, it is a reminder of this fact.

As a counter-point to this, I keep in touch with about eight friends from the T3 I attended as a 1L. The breakdown is:

3 in big law
1 doing SSDI/workers' comp
1 in a 25 civil litigation firm (does pretty darn well)
1 in house counsel at Nationwide
2 started their own firm

My friends might not be (and likely are not) a representative sample, but to add to my post above, if you do good work, good things can break your way.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the helpful tips and motivation. It seems with good/ hard work and a little luck it can work out.

[1styearlateral]

Thanks for the helpful tips and motivation. It seems with good/ hard work and a little luck it can work out.

People who put the work in almost always get rewarded. It's not very common to have amazing opportunities fall into your lap, even if you go to a great school and get great grades--it's just a little easier if you do.