i laughed.TEIAM wrote:The irony is amazing.Anonymous User wrote:SOLID anon post.FWIW: Check the Chambers & Partners attorney rankings. Boies has NOBODY through BAND FOUR even ranked (in NYC) aside from Boies and Schiller. Idk what that means for a 1st year associate, but it may say something about the quality of potential partners you might be able to work with.
Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)? Forum
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?rpupkin wrote:It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.cron1834 wrote:Yeah, that seems backwards.runinthefront wrote:You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.
Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.
Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.
There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.AspiringAspirant wrote:Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?rpupkin wrote:It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.cron1834 wrote:Yeah, that seems backwards.runinthefront wrote:You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.
Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.
Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.
There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.rpupkin wrote:The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.AspiringAspirant wrote:Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?rpupkin wrote:It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.cron1834 wrote:Yeah, that seems backwards.runinthefront wrote:You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.
Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.
Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.
There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
In 2016, the American Lawyer reported Boies (using 2014 data, albeit) as being the 9th most leveraged biglaw firm (5.56 non-equity lawyers per equity partner).Only Squire Patton, Lewis Brisbois, DLA Piper, Cadwalader, K&L, Fragomen, Paul Weiss, and White & Case were ahead (in that order). I'll try to find current data.Anonymous User wrote:Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.rpupkin wrote:The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.AspiringAspirant wrote:Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?rpupkin wrote:It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.cron1834 wrote:Yeah, that seems backwards.runinthefront wrote:You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.
Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.
Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.
There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."
Update: I found a good link with updated data. http://www.americanlawyer-digital.com/a ... pg=80#pg80.
On May 1 of this year, the American Lawyer listed the top 100 firms in terms of revenue per lawyer. Boies Shiller's leverage was good for 22nd on that list. For comparison's sake, Williams and Connolly was ranked #94 (1.77 lawyers per equity partner); Cadwalader was ranked #1 (8.73 lawyers per equity partner); Paul Weiss was #8 (5.88 lawyers per equity partner); Cravath was #25 (4.71 lawyers per equity partner); Skadden was #43 (3.69 lawyers per equity partner).
Quinn was 40th in 2014 and 50th in 2016.
I think rpupkin's right.
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- rpupkin
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
I think the source of some of the confusion here is that Boies has a ton of non-equity "partners" who are really just senior associates. They're a bit like KE in that respect.runinthefront wrote:In 2016, the American Lawyer reported Boies (using 2014 data, albeit) as being the 9th most leveraged biglaw firm (5.56 non-equity lawyers per equity partner).Only Squire Patton, Lewis Brisbois, DLA Piper, Cadwalader, K&L, Fragomen, Paul Weiss, and White & Case were ahead (in that order). I'll try to find current data.Anonymous User wrote:Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.rpupkin wrote:
The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.
To be clear, I'm not anti-Boies and I'm not trying to suggest that the firm is a uniquely terrible place to work or anything like that. I just don't think it belongs in the same category as lit boutiques or MTO/W&C.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
Yea, non equity partners are not real partners. Boies is a great firm! But it's more biglaw than boutique.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
This sums up the entire thread nicely.sublime wrote:Yea, non equity partners are not real partners. Boies is a great firm! But it's more biglaw than boutique.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss? This is all so strange.Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
I imagine that he's planning to consider options other than Quinn post-clerkship, and he wanted posters' thoughts on a couple of firms that interested him.runinthefront wrote:I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss?Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.
ETA: I have to admit that, in light of the context the OP just provided, the use of a poll is a little strange.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
That's a weird thing to do. Even assuming that she chose Quinn over Boies and Paul Weiss during her (or his) 1L OCI, OP would probably have more options post-clerkship. OP doesn't need to make any decisions until 2019, at the earliest. And a lot of things can change in two years . . . particularly with a firm like Boies Schiller. I guess I just find this thread wholly unnecessarily in light of OP's update.rpupkin wrote:I imagine that he's planning to consider options other than Quinn post-clerkship, and he wanted posters' thoughts on a couple of firms that interested him.runinthefront wrote:I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss?Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.
ETA: I have to admit that, in light of the context the OP just provided, the use of a poll is a little strange.
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
thanks
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
any more thoughts on this? Facing a similar decision.
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
BSFAnonymous User wrote:any more thoughts on this? Facing a similar decision.
At PW you go six years without taking a deposition, and there are junior litigation partners that have never argued a paying case
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
bump... anyone else?
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
They are both good firms. I have a friend at Boies, I think the money is a big plus. He is making quite a go of it. I think I could be happy there with my personality. He also is working unfathomable hours, and I work a lot. But it means he makes more.
I am at Paul Weiss. I am a second year and have taken multiple depositions (pro bono), run witness interviews on an internal investigation (paying). This is not typical, but the bureaucracy is loose and there is room to maneuver if you know what you’re doing, The culture is great, if you’re into it. The pro bono commitment is very very real and I split time between some high profile litigation and direct impact immigration work. It’s all great. Not extremely hierarchical tho you can have that life if you want it, are unlucky, or aren’t careful. I find I that if I create or pursue responsibilities I am generally given as much as I can handle as fast as I can handle it. I can also just disappear into the crowd occasionally when I need a breather. It’s a good balance as a junior, but I make less money than my friend at boies and he’s doing even crazier stuff, chasing business, and doing much more commercial traditional litigation.
Paul Weiss still is a generalist shop and does this, but there is regulatory defense, investigations, etc galore. None of that is at Boies. This could be a pro or a con. I have a lot of confidence in Brad Karp. People have been wondering what will happen when Boies croaks for years, but depending on your goals this likely does not matter. Tho perhaps Harvey has damaged his brand even now, but I doubt it.
This forum won’t help you I am guessing. I am guessing one feels better and you want to rationalize because you don’t trust yourself entirely. Unfortunately no one can say there is a right answer. Some people might implode at Boies while others might go stir crazy at PW. Pick wrong? Chase skills development and try the other in a few years if you need to no beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Tl;dr roll the dice yo
I am at Paul Weiss. I am a second year and have taken multiple depositions (pro bono), run witness interviews on an internal investigation (paying). This is not typical, but the bureaucracy is loose and there is room to maneuver if you know what you’re doing, The culture is great, if you’re into it. The pro bono commitment is very very real and I split time between some high profile litigation and direct impact immigration work. It’s all great. Not extremely hierarchical tho you can have that life if you want it, are unlucky, or aren’t careful. I find I that if I create or pursue responsibilities I am generally given as much as I can handle as fast as I can handle it. I can also just disappear into the crowd occasionally when I need a breather. It’s a good balance as a junior, but I make less money than my friend at boies and he’s doing even crazier stuff, chasing business, and doing much more commercial traditional litigation.
Paul Weiss still is a generalist shop and does this, but there is regulatory defense, investigations, etc galore. None of that is at Boies. This could be a pro or a con. I have a lot of confidence in Brad Karp. People have been wondering what will happen when Boies croaks for years, but depending on your goals this likely does not matter. Tho perhaps Harvey has damaged his brand even now, but I doubt it.
This forum won’t help you I am guessing. I am guessing one feels better and you want to rationalize because you don’t trust yourself entirely. Unfortunately no one can say there is a right answer. Some people might implode at Boies while others might go stir crazy at PW. Pick wrong? Chase skills development and try the other in a few years if you need to no beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Tl;dr roll the dice yo
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?
Midlevel at a different firm here. Having known people at both and once faced a similar decision myself, I think this is the best answer you are going to get. It depends: Boies is more freewheeling, more early upside but also a very hard-working and a bit disorganized place. Big opportunity but definitely not for everybody. PW is as solid as it gets, still a very demanding place but more structure. PW also has a more varied practice. Both are really about as good as it gets for somebody, the question is what is right for you. Hard to know unless you've worked at a law firm before (and maybe even then) but I wouldn't try to make an apples to apples comparison, they are really quite different and both great options. From either, I suspect if you're unhappy after a while you will the ability to make a switch to somewhere more suitable.Anonymous User wrote:They are both good firms. I have a friend at Boies, I think the money is a big plus. He is making quite a go of it. I think I could be happy there with my personality. He also is working unfathomable hours, and I work a lot. But it means he makes more.
I am at Paul Weiss. I am a second year and have taken multiple depositions (pro bono), run witness interviews on an internal investigation (paying). This is not typical, but the bureaucracy is loose and there is room to maneuver if you know what you’re doing, The culture is great, if you’re into it. The pro bono commitment is very very real and I split time between some high profile litigation and direct impact immigration work. It’s all great. Not extremely hierarchical tho you can have that life if you want it, are unlucky, or aren’t careful. I find I that if I create or pursue responsibilities I am generally given as much as I can handle as fast as I can handle it. I can also just disappear into the crowd occasionally when I need a breather. It’s a good balance as a junior, but I make less money than my friend at boies and he’s doing even crazier stuff, chasing business, and doing much more commercial traditional litigation.
Paul Weiss still is a generalist shop and does this, but there is regulatory defense, investigations, etc galore. None of that is at Boies. This could be a pro or a con. I have a lot of confidence in Brad Karp. People have been wondering what will happen when Boies croaks for years, but depending on your goals this likely does not matter. Tho perhaps Harvey has damaged his brand even now, but I doubt it.
This forum won’t help you I am guessing. I am guessing one feels better and you want to rationalize because you don’t trust yourself entirely. Unfortunately no one can say there is a right answer. Some people might implode at Boies while others might go stir crazy at PW. Pick wrong? Chase skills development and try the other in a few years if you need to no beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Tl;dr roll the dice yo
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