Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

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Boies or PW?

Boies
37
73%
PW
14
27%
 
Total votes: 51

longtimelurker123
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:06 pm

Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby longtimelurker123 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:34 pm

TEIAM wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
FWIW: Check the Chambers & Partners attorney rankings. Boies has NOBODY through BAND FOUR even ranked (in NYC) aside from Boies and Schiller. Idk what that means for a 1st year associate, but it may say something about the quality of potential partners you might be able to work with.


SOLID anon post.

The irony is amazing.


i laughed.

AspiringAspirant
Posts: 47
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby AspiringAspirant » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:37 pm

rpupkin wrote:
cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.

Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.

Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.

You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.

There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."

Yeah, that seems backwards.

It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.


Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?

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rpupkin
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:51 pm

AspiringAspirant wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.

Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.

Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.

You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.

There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."

Yeah, that seems backwards.

It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.


Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?


The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.

Anonymous User
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:23 pm

rpupkin wrote:
AspiringAspirant wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.

Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.

Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.

You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.

There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."

Yeah, that seems backwards.

It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.


Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?


The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.


Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.

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runinthefront
Posts: 1943
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby runinthefront » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
AspiringAspirant wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Where you want to lateral is important to consider. PW places a lot of people as AUSAs, especially in SDNY/EDNY. A lot of their partners participate in the revolving door between firms/DOJ, and so have connections that can be useful for getting associates jobs at the latter. Boies will probably make it easier to lateral into another litigation boutique.

Not that you can't go Boies to AUSA or PW to boutique -- I'm sure many people do that each year -- but there is also a discernible trend.

Also, one thing that was useful to me when making a similar decision was a v10 partner telling me that you can always go v10 to Boies/Susman/Munger/etc. but rarely if ever the other way around. Going to PW doesn't close doors in the same way starting at Boies does. Of course he had a stake in the game, but I got the sense that his advice was accurate.

You drank the shit out of his Kool-Aid.

There may be another reason why you rarely see people go from Susman/Munger/Boies to a "V10."

Yeah, that seems backwards.

It does (as everyone is saying), though you could make an argument that Boies is closer to PW than it is to Susman/Munger. Boies isn't old-school big law, but I think of it more as a Quinn/PW kind of shop (albeit with better compensation) and less of a Susman/Keker/W&C/MTO kind of place.


Could you explain more about what you think distinguishes these two groups of firms?


The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.


Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.


In 2016, the American Lawyer reported Boies (using 2014 data, albeit) as being the 9th most leveraged biglaw firm (5.56 non-equity lawyers per equity partner).Only Squire Patton, Lewis Brisbois, DLA Piper, Cadwalader, K&L, Fragomen, Paul Weiss, and White & Case were ahead (in that order). I'll try to find current data.

Update: I found a good link with updated data. http://www.americanlawyer-digital.com/a ... pg=80#pg80.

On May 1 of this year, the American Lawyer listed the top 100 firms in terms of revenue per lawyer. Boies Shiller's leverage was good for 22nd on that list. For comparison's sake, Williams and Connolly was ranked #94 (1.77 lawyers per equity partner); Cadwalader was ranked #1 (8.73 lawyers per equity partner); Paul Weiss was #8 (5.88 lawyers per equity partner); Cravath was #25 (4.71 lawyers per equity partner); Skadden was #43 (3.69 lawyers per equity partner).

Quinn was 40th in 2014 and 50th in 2016.

I think rpupkin's right.

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rpupkin
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:33 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
The firms in the latter group have low leverage, invest in associate development in a meaningful way, and offer a non-negligible chance of making equity partner after a few years. None of those things are really true of Boies Schiller.


Are we talking about the same firm? As a recent SA, I can tell you that Boies staffs its cases very leanly (the "learning-by-doing" model for new associates in the same vein as Susman, Keker, W&C, MTO, and--admittedly--Quinn), and has extremely low leverage. Just based on their website directory, they actually have more partners than associates, equity notwithstanding. While having the bulk of the partnership as non-equity is a different firm model for sure, even if that's what you're focusing on, Boies still isn't leveraged in the same way that Quinn/PW are. Much closer to a standard lit boutique than a hulking BigLaw behemoth.


In 2016, the American Lawyer reported Boies (using 2014 data, albeit) as being the 9th most leveraged biglaw firm (5.56 non-equity lawyers per equity partner).Only Squire Patton, Lewis Brisbois, DLA Piper, Cadwalader, K&L, Fragomen, Paul Weiss, and White & Case were ahead (in that order). I'll try to find current data.

I think the source of some of the confusion here is that Boies has a ton of non-equity "partners" who are really just senior associates. They're a bit like KE in that respect.

To be clear, I'm not anti-Boies and I'm not trying to suggest that the firm is a uniquely terrible place to work or anything like that. I just don't think it belongs in the same category as lit boutiques or MTO/W&C.

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sublime
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby sublime » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Yea, non equity partners are not real partners. Boies is a great firm! But it's more biglaw than boutique.

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cron1834
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby cron1834 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:43 pm

sublime wrote:Yea, non equity partners are not real partners. Boies is a great firm! But it's more biglaw than boutique.

This sums up the entire thread nicely.

Anonymous User
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:30 pm

OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.

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runinthefront
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby runinthefront » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.

I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss? This is all so strange.

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rpupkin
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:09 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.

I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss?

I imagine that he's planning to consider options other than Quinn post-clerkship, and he wanted posters' thoughts on a couple of firms that interested him.

ETA: I have to admit that, in light of the context the OP just provided, the use of a poll is a little strange.

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runinthefront
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby runinthefront » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:17 pm

rpupkin wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Current 3L heading out to clerk, summered at Quinn. This was all very informative. Thanks.

I'm confused. You summered at Quinn in 2017. You accepted a clerkship for 2018. Why did you make a thread asking about Boies vs. Paul, Weiss?

I imagine that he's planning to consider options other than Quinn post-clerkship, and he wanted posters' thoughts on a couple of firms that interested him.

ETA: I have to admit that, in light of the context the OP just provided, the use of a poll is a little strange.

That's a weird thing to do. Even assuming that she chose Quinn over Boies and Paul Weiss during her (or his) 1L OCI, OP would probably have more options post-clerkship. OP doesn't need to make any decisions until 2019, at the earliest. And a lot of things can change in two years . . . particularly with a firm like Boies Schiller. I guess I just find this thread wholly unnecessarily in light of OP's update.

Anonymous User
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:39 pm

thanks
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Boies or PW for Lit (NYC)?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:52 pm

.




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