How do you decide between small firm offers? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Struck out at OCI, but mass-mailing paid off with four offers from small firms. All the firms will split. I've already accepted the offer from the largest firm (100 lawyers/town of 250,000), but I have no idea what to base the selection of the second firm on. All interviews were phone/Skype, everyone I talked to was friendly, and they all answered the standard questions pretty much the same way. Their SA programs seem to be similarly run & are full-service firms.

Firm A: Southern town of 70,000, 42 lawyers
Firm B: Southern town of 200,000, 35 lawyers
Firm C: same city as B, 16 lawyers

I've tried research, but can't find anything about pay, how many associates get offers, etc... I'm not even sure that info is reported for small firms. The only thing of any substance I was able to find out was which political candidates their partners donated to in the last election. I had a better interview with Firm C because my interviewer seemed to share my sense of humor, but IDK that's the best thing to base an acceptance on. I've read that you shouldn't bring up pay until you've completed your summer and actually have an offer. Does this advice apply to small firms? I don't want to spend my summer somewhere only to discover they pay first-years $45K. Is it ok to email and ask questions? I've been warned against this as well. I don't want to be annoying and have them all start rescinding.

(3.5 GPA at t20 with LR & minimal debt, if that helps)

[tyroneslothrop1]

Your summer salary is probably a decent proxy for your eventual full-time salary. In terms of where to choose, considerations are likely: (1) where do you want to live; (2) does the firm intend to hire you full time, assuming the summer goes well; (3) cash; and (4) practice areas. If you have questions about these issues, I would just politely ask.

[Ohiobumpkin]

What areas of law seem to be the biggest practice groups? A firm with a large practice group in securities work would probably pay more than say a firm with a large practice group in criminal law. Also, firms in larger cities tend to pay more than firms in smaller communities.

[Anonymous User]

I would rather work in the larger city. It isn't exactly what I'd originally hoped for, but I have been there, and it seems livable. My biggest concern is pay. I don't really care about it for the summer (I've heard small firms in small cities even sometimes pay SAs shitty hourly rates), but I would like to know that I will eventually have decent compensation should I end up working there. Would I be ignoring any unwritten rules to ask (seeing as we're talking small firms in the South)?

I looked up the average associate pay for the city (which has a low CoL), and it's listed at $80K. No idea how accurate these estimates are. I have no problems sending a polite inquiry. I just want to make sure this isn't going to reflect badly, somehow - small Southern firm job >>>no job.

Firm B lists itself as a full-service firm with main practice areas in business transactions, business and complex litigation, and environmental & regulatory.

Firm C lists labor & employment law and immigration as main practices.

[UVA2B]

I would rather work in the larger city. It isn't exactly what I'd originally hoped for, but I have been there, and it seems livable. My biggest concern is pay. I don't really care about it for the summer (I've heard small firms in small cities even sometimes pay SAs shitty hourly rates), but I would like to know that I will eventually have decent compensation should I end up working there. Would I be ignoring any unwritten rules to ask (seeing as we're talking small firms in the South)?

I looked up the average associate pay for the city (which has a low CoL), and it's listed at $80K. No idea how accurate these estimates are. I have no problems sending a polite inquiry. I just want to make sure this isn't going to reflect badly, somehow - small Southern firm job >>>no job.

Firm B lists itself as a full-service firm with main practice areas in business transactions, business and complex litigation, and environmental & regulatory.

Firm C lists labor & employment law and immigration as main practices.

Have you gotten offer letters from any of these firms? As mentioned, your SA pay will likely be some indication of your pay as an associate, if that's your biggest concern.

[Anonymous User]

I would rather work in the larger city. It isn't exactly what I'd originally hoped for, but I have been there, and it seems livable. My biggest concern is pay. I don't really care about it for the summer (I've heard small firms in small cities even sometimes pay SAs shitty hourly rates), but I would like to know that I will eventually have decent compensation should I end up working there. Would I be ignoring any unwritten rules to ask (seeing as we're talking small firms in the South)?

I looked up the average associate pay for the city (which has a low CoL), and it's listed at $80K. No idea how accurate these estimates are. I have no problems sending a polite inquiry. I just want to make sure this isn't going to reflect badly, somehow - small Southern firm job >>>no job.

Firm B lists itself as a full-service firm with main practice areas in business transactions, business and complex litigation, and environmental & regulatory.

Firm C lists labor & employment law and immigration as main practices.

Have you gotten offer letters from any of these firms? As mentioned, your SA pay will likely be some indication of your pay as an associate, if that's your biggest concern.

Both offered over the phone within the past week. Nothing in writing (yet anyway). Both are expecting a decision next week.

[UVA2B]

I would rather work in the larger city. It isn't exactly what I'd originally hoped for, but I have been there, and it seems livable. My biggest concern is pay. I don't really care about it for the summer (I've heard small firms in small cities even sometimes pay SAs shitty hourly rates), but I would like to know that I will eventually have decent compensation should I end up working there. Would I be ignoring any unwritten rules to ask (seeing as we're talking small firms in the South)?

I looked up the average associate pay for the city (which has a low CoL), and it's listed at $80K. No idea how accurate these estimates are. I have no problems sending a polite inquiry. I just want to make sure this isn't going to reflect badly, somehow - small Southern firm job >>>no job.

Firm B lists itself as a full-service firm with main practice areas in business transactions, business and complex litigation, and environmental & regulatory.

Firm C lists labor & employment law and immigration as main practices.

Have you gotten offer letters from any of these firms? As mentioned, your SA pay will likely be some indication of your pay as an associate, if that's your biggest concern.

Both offered over the phone within the past week. Nothing in writing (yet anyway). Both are expecting a decision next week.

Wait until you get written offers to make this decision. The rest is moot when your primary concern is salary as an associate.

[deadpanic]

I would also say a huge consideration is offer rates. A ton of mid-size firms - hell, even those considered "big" for the small southern markets you are talking about - do not give anywhere close to 100% offer rates, and it isn't due to bad SAs. I've seen several where an entire small SA class is no-offered just due to no need/not enough resources. It is just not the same beast as traditional BigLaw in almost every category even though you are a "summer associate."

Not sure the best way to go around finding out this info, though.

[Anonymous User]

I would also say a huge consideration is offer rates. A ton of mid-size firms - hell, even those considered "big" for the small southern markets you are talking about - do not give anywhere close to 100% offer rates, and it isn't due to bad SAs. I've seen several where an entire small SA class is no-offered just due to no need/not enough resources. It is just not the same beast as traditional BigLaw in almost every category even though you are a "summer associate."

Not sure the best way to go around finding out this info, though.

I emailed my CSO to see if they have access to any small southern firm info. I looked and came up empty. During my interviews, they both said they considered the SA class as an important hiring resource, but I didn't think at the time to ask about offer rates. Probably 90% of the attorneys at both firms are from the two local law schools, maybe they'd consider me a diversity hire.

[foregetaboutdre]

I strongly considered going to a firm in a southern market that mirrored the few that you outlined. As another poster said, Southern firms, from like 20 attys to 90 seem to not have a traditional 100% offer rates, which made me not pursue the opportunity.

I would advise you to first wait for salary details. Second, did any of them really make it seem like they hire their SAs for FT employment? Further, are any of them expanding?

[malibustacy]

In terms of starting salary and offer rate, I'd just be upfront and ask. These are normal questions to ask when considering a job.

For reputation; honestly, word of mouth. In small towns, I'd consider calling some local attorneys or people that might know and see what they have to say about the firm.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the suggestions. I've got an idea of what I need to research over the weekend now, anyway. I guess I'll stop worrying about it and just email them about pay/offer rate. If they take offense at the question, it's probably a red flag anyway.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I think the idea of asking locally about reputation is a good one. That should be a reasonable proxy for salary and firm stability. I personally would not ask about salary at this stage.

[lolwat]

In terms of starting salary and offer rate, I'd just be upfront and ask. These are normal questions to ask when considering a job.

For reputation; honestly, word of mouth. In small towns, I'd consider calling some local attorneys or people that might know and see what they have to say about the firm.

You know, I agree about the salary. If they're unwilling to tell you, who the fuck knows what else they're holding back.

In terms of reputation, I'd also check out attorneys' involvement in local bar and other professional associations. I'm not in a small town so it could be different, but people here don't get to be president of their county bar associations without having some serious clout and being very well-liked. And a lot of those people end up running their own firms. Same generally holds true for things like director/officer positions in the local FBA Chapter and stuff like that.

That doesn't guarantee the firm is going to be offering you a high salary or anything, but the better the attorneys are, the more likely the firm itself is at least a healthy one.

[XxSpyKEx]

Your summer salary is probably a decent proxy for your eventual full-time salary.

This is true in biglaw but definitely not true at smaller firms (all of the offers besides the one OP accepted are firms of under 50 attys, one is only 16 attys. Hiring summer "clerks" that are paid more like $12-20 /HR for those clerks is normal practice at firms this small).

OP, I agree with people on here's suggestion re: asking people who practice in the area about the firm's reputation and whatnot. Directly asking the firm what they pay 1st year associates at this stage sounds like a mistake to me (this just isn't done). You can get an idea of what the firm pays based on practice areas. Stuff like criminal law and immigration simply doesn't pay well, which will trickle down to the accociates in terms of lower pay. (Obviously, there are exceptions like white collar boutiques and firms that only handle business visas for F500 companies, but that's not the norm). Employment & Labor law can pay decently, but it depends on what they do in those areas as well. A firm that does employee side worker's comp and title VII claims probably won't pay very well. Complex commercial litigation & business transactions will typically general more money (since companies that pay these firms have more money). Honestly, just based on the info you've provided, I would bet the starting salary at Firm B will be better than Firm C. It's possible that Firm C is an outlier boutique small firm and Firm B handles really low end stuff, but just looking at the number of attorneys and practice areas leads me to believe that the odds are you'll do a lot better at Firm B. Quite frankly, Firm B is the type of firm that a lot of biglaw litigation associates try to exit into (in-house tends to be a less viable option for biglaw lit associates, just because there's a lot less of those positions generally), so while you might be bummed about not snagging up biglaw, Firm B is probably a really good place to land. (I'm making some big assumptions here, since we don't actually know the specific details of any of those firms, but generally based on practice areas and number of lawyers for a secondary market, it sounds promising. Obviously, a lot of the rest depends on the types of clienta that the firm gets business from and the culture of the place, which will be based on the partners). You also noted that these firms are in a smaller secondary city, so one thing to keep in mind is that a smaller pay will go a lot further in that city that it would NYC. In other words, making something like a $100k in some smaller secondary city is arguably better than making $160k in NYC just because of how much further that $100k will go.

[Anonymous User]

Your summer salary is probably a decent proxy for your eventual full-time salary.

This is true in biglaw but definitely not true at smaller firms (all of the offers besides the one OP accepted are firms of under 50 attys, one is only 16 attys. Hiring summer "clerks" that are paid more like $12-20 /HR for those clerks is normal practice at firms this small).

OP, I agree with people on here's suggestion re: asking people who practice in the area about the firm's reputation and whatnot. Directly asking the firm what they pay 1st year associates at this stage sounds like a mistake to me (this just isn't done). You can get an idea of what the firm pays based on practice areas. Stuff like criminal law and immigration simply doesn't pay well, which will trickle down to the accociates in terms of lower pay. (Obviously, there are exceptions like white collar boutiques and firms that only handle business visas for F500 companies, but that's not the norm). Employment & Labor law can pay decently, but it depends on what they do in those areas as well. A firm that does employee side worker's comp and title VII claims probably won't pay very well. Complex commercial litigation & business transactions will typically general more money (since companies that pay these firms have more money). Honestly, just based on the info you've provided, I would bet the starting salary at Firm B will be better than Firm C. It's possible that Firm C is an outlier boutique small firm and Firm B handles really low end stuff, but just looking at the number of attorneys and practice areas leads me to believe that the odds are you'll do a lot better at Firm B. Quite frankly, Firm B is the type of firm that a lot of biglaw litigation associates try to exit into (in-house tends to be a less viable option for biglaw lit associates, just because there's a lot less of those positions generally), so while you might be bummed about not snagging up biglaw, Firm B is probably a really good place to land. (I'm making some big assumptions here, since we don't actually know the specific details of any of those firms, but generally based on practice areas and number of lawyers for a secondary market, it sounds promising. Obviously, a lot of the rest depends on the types of clienta that the firm gets business from and the culture of the place, which will be based on the partners). You also noted that these firms are in a smaller secondary city, so one thing to keep in mind is that a smaller pay will go a lot further in that city that it would NYC. In other words, making something like a $100k in some smaller secondary city is arguably better than making $160k in NYC just because of how much further that $100k will go.

Mind if I PM you with a few more details?

[XxSpyKEx]

Your summer salary is probably a decent proxy for your eventual full-time salary.

This is true in biglaw but definitely not true at smaller firms (all of the offers besides the one OP accepted are firms of under 50 attys, one is only 16 attys. Hiring summer "clerks" that are paid more like $12-20 /HR for those clerks is normal practice at firms this small).

OP, I agree with people on here's suggestion re: asking people who practice in the area about the firm's reputation and whatnot. Directly asking the firm what they pay 1st year associates at this stage sounds like a mistake to me (this just isn't done). You can get an idea of what the firm pays based on practice areas. Stuff like criminal law and immigration simply doesn't pay well, which will trickle down to the accociates in terms of lower pay. (Obviously, there are exceptions like white collar boutiques and firms that only handle business visas for F500 companies, but that's not the norm). Employment & Labor law can pay decently, but it depends on what they do in those areas as well. A firm that does employee side worker's comp and title VII claims probably won't pay very well. Complex commercial litigation & business transactions will typically general more money (since companies that pay these firms have more money). Honestly, just based on the info you've provided, I would bet the starting salary at Firm B will be better than Firm C. It's possible that Firm C is an outlier boutique small firm and Firm B handles really low end stuff, but just looking at the number of attorneys and practice areas leads me to believe that the odds are you'll do a lot better at Firm B. Quite frankly, Firm B is the type of firm that a lot of biglaw litigation associates try to exit into (in-house tends to be a less viable option for biglaw lit associates, just because there's a lot less of those positions generally), so while you might be bummed about not snagging up biglaw, Firm B is probably a really good place to land. (I'm making some big assumptions here, since we don't actually know the specific details of any of those firms, but generally based on practice areas and number of lawyers for a secondary market, it sounds promising. Obviously, a lot of the rest depends on the types of clienta that the firm gets business from and the culture of the place, which will be based on the partners). You also noted that these firms are in a smaller secondary city, so one thing to keep in mind is that a smaller pay will go a lot further in that city that it would NYC. In other words, making something like a $100k in some smaller secondary city is arguably better than making $160k in NYC just because of how much further that $100k will go.

Mind if I PM you with a few more details?

Sure.