Be very wary of Cadwalader (NYC) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a junior that recently left CWT in NYC, so I thought I would throw my hat in the ring. I can't speak too much to the other offices; I have had nothing but good experiences (albeit limited) with Charlotte and DC folks. I have heard horror stories from friends about a couple people in Charlotte, but that is probably true of every office of every big law firm, right?

Speaking to my friends at other firms in NYC I do think CWT CAN be worse than other places. But it really depends on what group you work in. Capital markets and corporate can be very tough groups from everything I have gathered. And I don't mean hours (CWT hours are probably better than V20 firms). The environment in these groups is what makes them tough. On the other hand, real estate and parts of financial services are supposed to be really great groups to work in. Additionally, health care and IP are supposed to be pretty good groups to be in, but they are very small and maybe have one junior at a time. It certainly is the case that if you go to CWT to do capital markets or corporate you are likely to have a difficult experience.

[Anonymous User]

Does it apply to all practice groups? Is it partner dependent and it just so happens there are a bunch of bad eggs?

In 2016 they named 10 new partners, up from 5 in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. This seems like a shift to expand the relatively small partnership, does it mean anything to you having had worked there?

OP here. Yes, it applies to most practice groups, specifically Cap Markets, Corporate and Financial Services. For the Corporate associates, the QOL has gotten even worse with the recent hiring of a young hot shot partner who basically runs the entire department and Cap Markets has always been known to be awful.

I have no idea if the partners are equity or non-equity, but it does not signal "growth" of any kind. All signs point to the exact opposite. For a firm like CWT to name more partners that hurts associates if things continue to swing down.

Things aren't really swinging down...if anything the firm is understaffed right now.

[Anonymous User]

Does it apply to all practice groups? Is it partner dependent and it just so happens there are a bunch of bad eggs?

In 2016 they named 10 new partners, up from 5 in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. This seems like a shift to expand the relatively small partnership, does it mean anything to you having had worked there?

OP here. Yes, it applies to most practice groups, specifically Cap Markets, Corporate and Financial Services. For the Corporate associates, the QOL has gotten even worse with the recent hiring of a young hot shot partner who basically runs the entire department and Cap Markets has always been known to be awful.

I have no idea if the partners are equity or non-equity, but it does not signal "growth" of any kind. All signs point to the exact opposite. For a firm like CWT to name more partners that hurts associates if things continue to swing down.

Things aren't really swinging down...if anything the firm is understaffed right now.

Lol. The firm has taken tons of losses in almost every department other than cap markets. The firm financials continue to lag every year. It's sole focus at this point in NYC is cap markets. It's putting all its eggs in this basket. Things have been swinging down for the firm generally, and god forbid if the economy worsens than the firm is in very deep shit.

[Anonymous User]

I am a junior that recently left CWT in NYC, so I thought I would throw my hat in the ring. I can't speak too much to the other offices; I have had nothing but good experiences (albeit limited) with Charlotte and DC folks. I have heard horror stories from friends about a couple people in Charlotte, but that is probably true of every office of every big law firm, right?

Speaking to my friends at other firms in NYC I do think CWT CAN be worse than other places. But it really depends on what group you work in. Capital markets and corporate can be very tough groups from everything I have gathered. And I don't mean hours (CWT hours are probably better than V20 firms). The environment in these groups is what makes them tough. On the other hand, real estate and parts of financial services are supposed to be really great groups to work in. Additionally, health care and IP are supposed to be pretty good groups to be in, but they are very small and maybe have one junior at a time. It certainly is the case that if you go to CWT to do capital markets or corporate you are likely to have a difficult experience.

These posts are important but like you said, they take very few juniors and this will not be the outcome for the vast majority of new associates. Especially as the firm continues to hunker down on capital markets.

[Anonymous User]

Apparently at least one no-offer in NYC summer class for no articulated reason (told from someone who is in that office).

I was around for that summer's no-offer, and it was for very good reason. I'm not giving details or any identifiable information, but it's a wonder it didn't make ATL.

I was the second or third defender in this thread, who said the alarmism lacked nuance, and my group has been very busy this year. Maybe it's just because I'm one of the lucky juniors in a non-cap-markets group, but to say the firm is only cap markets is less true now than, say, year ago. Our group is hiring, my friends in some other small groups are swamped. I talked about the financials in my last post — yes the firm is smaller, but with some notable exceptions (e.g. antitrust departures) it's fairly strategically smaller, not just spiraling down. Admittedly, things at Cad are not just rocking and rolling like some firms, but they're not awful either, most of my friends are fairly happy.

Like I said before, I think everyone's perception is based on a fairly small sample size, and their personal experience with a few partners/lawyers. The self-selected people who start TLS threads probably skew to the end of the bell curve of bad experiences. That doesn't mean it's irrelevant for a law student evaluating firms, but it means the more accurate interpretation might be "here's a person who had a bad experience," not "everyone hates their life there, it's the worst place to work."

[Anonymous User]

Had an awful CB there a few years back. Everyone looked miserable. I have one close friend from LS there and he hated it. Luckily he got out of there. My LS career services told me to avoid this place at all costs. FYI

[Anonymous User]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

[nealric]

Cad had the same rep when I summered in 2012. Good to see they are consistent.

They had this reputation when I started looking at firms in 2007.

[Pikachu0202]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

You reap what you sow. If you treat your associates like shit for so long you’re not going to be able to fill a 20 person summer class where you are basically guaranteed a job that pays you $180,000. Let that sink in as a testament to what a miserable place CWT is.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

[Pikachu0202]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

[Anonymous User]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

lol I wish. If I was I'd hire myself and be done with this whole process

[Diglett]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

lol I wish. If I was I'd hire myself and be done with this whole process

flame. no one wants to work at Cadwalader.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

lol I wish. If I was I'd hire myself and be done with this whole process

flame. no one wants to work at Cadwalader.

I would b/c it would mean I would have 2L biglaw summer employment

[Diglett]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

lol I wish. If I was I'd hire myself and be done with this whole process

flame. no one wants to work at Cadwalader.

I would b/c it would mean I would have 2L biglaw summer employment

Sorry to hear. Are you at a t14 where you can do 3L OCI?

[Anonymous User]

I have heard from a friend who works in the NYC office that they are having trouble filling up their summer class. for those who struck out at OCI or don't have an SA, might not hurt to send your resume there.

Just recently got an email saying, in fact, the opposite. They clearly said they completed hiring for their 2L 2018 Summer Associate Program, and would not be doing any more interviews.

Sup Cad recruiting?

lol I wish. If I was I'd hire myself and be done with this whole process

flame. no one wants to work at Cadwalader.

I would b/c it would mean I would have 2L biglaw summer employment

Sorry to hear. Are you at a t14 where you can do 3L OCI?

Yeah, but of course I'm gonna try and get something before then. Still mass mailing, hoping something will bite.

[Anonymous User]

I know someone who summered at Cad NYC and said is almost all practices seemed dead. He didn't work during the summer.

[Anonymous User]

I know someone who summered at Cad NYC and said is almost all practices seemed dead. He didn't work during the summer.

I summered there and had the exact opposite experience. Never had an issue getting work. Seemed like there weren't enough summers to go around. Also didn't really get a sense of any bad atmosphere, although I didn't do much cap markets work which is the notorious group.

[Diglett]

I know someone who summered at Cad NYC and said is almost all practices seemed dead. He didn't work during the summer.

I summered there and had the exact opposite experience. Never had an issue getting work. Seemed like there weren't enough summers to go around. Also didn't really get a sense of any bad atmosphere, although I didn't do much cap markets work which is the notorious group.

Summers definitely are a good barometer of firm health and morale.

[ProHacViceAgain]

Former Cadwalader DC associate here. Please do not spread lies about our old firm.

The summer classes keep getting smaller, the D.C. office no longer has a summer program and a very large portion of the 2016 summer class did not even return. The firm had to bring in a bunch of recent grads to fill the first year ranks. The 2016 associates who did return have also left in record numbers and two were already fired.

This is untrue. The DC office does have a summer program, any 2016 summer not part of the practice group that moved got an offer to return and will, and the 2016 associates all returned save two: one moved with the practice group to another firm and another went to go clerk. The rest came back. The offices that shut down were in Asia, because they were branches to aid the DC practice group that left.

The reality is that the firm experienced some unanticipated departures and now everyone's making a big deal out of something that has happened to every other firm. (WSRG has taken a group from Sidley, Winston from McDermott, Quinn from Skadden, Holland & Knight from Jones Day -- it's part of the industry.) But that isn't to say that young associates shouldn't look forward to an amazing start to their career. I loved my time at CWT: there was good work, hands-on experience with drafting/filing and plenty of face time with partners. There was one partner who is brilliant, who has been at CWT his whole career, and who is without a doubt the nicest and most effective mentor I've ever had. Also, the current attorney resources department is top-notch. It's run by a former attorney who used to give us practical, useful advice whenever we asked for it. Even when I was lateraling (I left DC to go home to my family and SO) partners and associates were happy to call connections and former classmates on my behalf, and when I got my current job (V15 firm in my top choice market-- having partners calling on your behalf helps), they and staff threw me a goodbye party (or two). In short... don't listen to OP. I'm not sure why he's bitter at CWT, but his experience is likely personal.

Weak effort. Pro tip to the Cad recruiting person who wrote this - be more subtle. If you had just wrote "IDK I'm a former associate and thought it was OK" then people might have taken notice. You went overboard and made it too obvious.

Pro tip to law students - recruiting at stable and decent firms doesn't require posting fake tls testimonials

FTW. very weak effort. all that schmoozin' skill probably landed recruiting job to begin with

[ProHacViceAgain]

Apparently at least one no-offer in NYC summer class for no articulated reason (told from someone who is in that office).

I was around for that summer's no-offer, and it was for very good reason. I'm not giving details or any identifiable information, but it's a wonder it didn't make ATL.

I was the second or third defender in this thread, who said the alarmism lacked nuance, and my group has been very busy this year. Maybe it's just because I'm one of the lucky juniors in a non-cap-markets group, but to say the firm is only cap markets is less true now than, say, year ago. Our group is hiring, my friends in some other small groups are swamped. I talked about the financials in my last post — yes the firm is smaller, but with some notable exceptions (e.g. antitrust departures) it's fairly strategically smaller, not just spiraling down. Admittedly, things at Cad are not just rocking and rolling like some firms, but they're not awful either, most of my friends are fairly happy.

Like I said before, I think everyone's perception is based on a fairly small sample size, and their personal experience with a few partners/lawyers. The self-selected people who start TLS threads probably skew to the end of the bell curve of bad experiences. That doesn't mean it's irrelevant for a law student evaluating firms, but it means the more accurate interpretation might be "here's a person who had a bad experience," not "everyone hates their life there, it's the worst place to work."

or great experiences! Hooray BigLaw!

[Anonymous User]

Because summer associate and recruiting season is coming up, as a junior at CWT, the horror stories are true. This is not a good place to work. Most juniors leave after a year, and the quality of each summer class keeps going down. I’d avoid this place unless it’s your only offer, and even then know you’re going to be looking to lateral within a year (like most people do).


They also increased the hours requirement for the bonus, and have refused any kind of work from home policy. They don’t pay bonuses until the last week in February (to discourage laterals) and I’ve heard it’s common for partners to transfer associate billable hours to non-billable hours. This hasn’t happened to me personally, but I’d be livid if a partner took away some of my billable hours to charge a client less.


With that being said, if you’re at a lower ranked school, it’s a good opportunity to get your foot in the door at big law. Our past summer classes have include people from lower ranked schools (think Fordham and below) and I think this year they’re hiring someone from Ohio State law.

[QContinuum]

I’ve heard it’s common for partners to transfer associate billable hours to non-billable hours. This hasn’t happened to me personally, but I’d be livid if a partner took away some of my billable hours to charge a client less.

If true, that's ridiculous. At all firms, partners frequently write off associate billables to charge a client less, but associates still get billable credit for those written-off hours. At most, an associate might get talked to about improving efficiency, but associates won't magically see their "2000 billables" somehow get busted down to 1900 after the partner bills the client.

Our past summer classes have include people from lower ranked schools (think Fordham and below) and I think this year they’re hiring someone from Ohio State law.

To be fair, I don't know what percentage of CWT's summer class comes from outside the T20. But even at the V5/V10/etc., you'll see non-T20 grads pretty frequently. The difference is that the T13s will each send multiple students each year, while each of the non-T20 students will almost certainly be the only student from their school (and may be the only student from their school in the past half decade or longer).

[Anonymous User]

Because summer associate and recruiting season is coming up, as a junior at CWT, the horror stories are true. This is not a good place to work. Most juniors leave after a year, and the quality of each summer class keeps going down. I’d avoid this place unless it’s your only offer, and even then know you’re going to be looking to lateral within a year (like most people do).


They also increased the hours requirement for the bonus, and have refused any kind of work from home policy. They don’t pay bonuses until the last week in February (to discourage laterals) and I’ve heard it’s common for partners to transfer associate billable hours to non-billable hours. This hasn’t happened to me personally, but I’d be livid if a partner took away some of my billable hours to charge a client less.


With that being said, if you’re at a lower ranked school, it’s a good opportunity to get your foot in the door at big law. Our past summer classes have include people from lower ranked schools (think Fordham and below) and I think this year they’re hiring someone from Ohio State law.

Clearly you have some type of intense prejudice against people from "Fordham and below". Considering Wachtell just hired a recent Fordham grad, maybe Cadwalader isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel hiring people from those schools. I would also bet big money that someone from the top 30% of Fordham has a very good chance of being a better lawyer then someone from the bottom 50 of CCN. There may very well be reasons someone should be wary of Cadwalader but I don't think hiring people from outside the T-14 is one of them.

[ConfusedNYer]

The fact that a firm that traditionally had a lot of T14 summers is consistently having less and less each summer should probably be something that should be considered and seen as a red flag, not that its a reason unto itself for avoiding a firm. (And no, having a summer from Ohio State Law or any other single law school is not what I'm talking about when I say this, obviously summer classes across all firms will have capable summers from the top of their class across all law schools and these summers will likely be high quality attorneys.)

The reason is NOT that the quality of the summers across the board will be lower if its filled with non T14 students.

The reason is that these firms care about having a high number of T14 summers because they brag about it to their clients and for better or worse firms care about the appearance of prestige (remember what profession we are talking about.) If a firm has 10 students from Columbia one summer and 2 the next, there is a very good chance there's some partner somewhere in the firm complaining about it to recruiting and they're going to try and fix that the following summer. If they can't, it shows that the firm is having recruiting issues which likely signals larger issues with the firm. Now maybe Cadwalader's recruiting really doesn't care about this and their isn't any internal pressure from partners to keep T14 recruiting up, but I doubt that. (Now I'm basing this partially on conversations I've had with the recruiting folks at my firm, so its a bit anecdotal, but I also can't imagine the crotchety, boomer partner from HLS being happy when the summer class has zero recruits from his alma mater.)

This isn't to say that the above attitude is a good thing. But, I think pretending it says nothing about the firm if a large summer class used to draw 75% from the T14 and now only draws 50% in most cases is a bit odd.