Fed Not that Great Forum

[JayDubya]

How does promotion work in the feds? For instance, if promotion potential for a position is GS-15, do you do a year at each level working up to 15 and then progress through each step of 15?

[Anonymous User]

How does promotion work in the feds? For instance, if promotion potential for a position is GS-15, do you do a year at each level working up to 15 and then progress through each step of 15?

I came into my agency at 12 with 15 potential. 3+ years later I'm still a 12. Try to look for an agency that has a career track to 14. I believe those agencies it's usually 11-14 and one year at each to get to 14.

On another note, how do you find fed jobs in secondary markets? I've been looking for a fed. job in or around NYC or Philly for over a year now and have seen maybe 3 postings on USAjobs. I got my DC fed gig off my school's symplicity but they pretty much only post DC stuff.

[Anonymous User]

How does promotion work in the feds? For instance, if promotion potential for a position is GS-15, do you do a year at each level working up to 15 and then progress through each step of 15?

For most fed attorney jobs it's GS-11 to GS-14 with an "automatic" promotion every year (except it usually takes an extra year to go from GS-13 to GS-14). I use quotation marks because technically it's not automatic; you only make the grade promotion if you've demonstrated during the preceding year that you've successfully carried out the duties of your present grade. But the large majority of people get their promotions, so it's almost a given.

Re: GS-15, once you're promoted to a grade, you start at step 1. The exception is if you had so many steps in your lower grade that you would actually lose money if you were promoted a grade. I think OPM has a rule governing those situations; regardless, people often negotiate an extra number of steps to match their salary in their last grade. In general, though, you start the steps all over once you're promoted a grade. I believe it takes around 17 years to go through all the steps...so get to GS-15 as soon as you can

[Anonymous User]

I came into my agency at 12 with 15 potential. 3+ years later I'm still a 12. Try to look for an agency that has a career track to 14. I believe those agencies it's usually 11-14 and one year at each to get to 14.

On another note, how do you find fed jobs in secondary markets? I've been looking for a fed. job in or around NYC or Philly for over a year now and have seen maybe 3 postings on USAjobs. I got my DC fed gig off my school's symplicity but they pretty much only post DC stuff.

Wow, gs-12 after 3 years experience is really tough. Is this a position with SSA or the VA? I have heard those agencies specifically try to keep salaries down, which is why they are so frequently hiring.

As far as non-D.C. gigs, you can set up a search on USAJobs to show only jobs in specific cities or states. I have one set up with about 20 states that I would be happy to move to, and I get a few postings per week that way. They seem to be mostly civilian-attorney positions with the Army/Navy/Air Force, requiring skills I have no way of acquiring. The other common thing to see are positions with ICE or CPB, which personally am not interested in. I'm guessing good fed attorney jobs in affordable areas that don't require specialized skills are only gonna come open up a few times a year.

Right now, I've got a job I'm pretty happy with, but it's not in an area I want to settle down in, and I don't think I can get past gs-14 here, at least not without like 10+ years experience.

[Anonymous User]

I have 1 year, 7 mos experience in the private sector. It's experience that doesn't translate to government positions. I currently make ~$130,000, but I don't enjoy it and I want a better work/life balance.

I have an offer for a GS11/1 federal position (potential 14). Am I crazy for wanting to take this? I would switch to PAYE and go for forgiveness.

[lessperfect]

I have 1 year, 7 mos experience in the private sector. It's experience that doesn't translate to government positions. I currently make ~$130,000, but I don't enjoy it and I want a better work/life balance.

I have an offer for a GS11/1 federal position (potential 14). Am I crazy for wanting to take this? I would switch to PAYE and go for forgiveness.

I think it totally depends on the agency and whether you are interested in their work. Also, if you don't like it, does the agency have exit options? You also of course have to consider your financial circumstances and whether you can afford to take a pay cut. Will they negotiate salary at all? Sometimes, agencies will allow you to go up a few steps (within the same grade-- in this instance, GS-11) to help match your salary. It can't hurt to ask. Can I ask if it's BVA or SSA?

[Anonymous User]

I have 1 year, 7 mos experience in the private sector. It's experience that doesn't translate to government positions. I currently make ~$130,000, but I don't enjoy it and I want a better work/life balance.

I have an offer for a GS11/1 federal position (potential 14). Am I crazy for wanting to take this? I would switch to PAYE and go for forgiveness.

I think it totally depends on the agency and whether you are interested in their work. Also, if you don't like it, does the agency have exit options? You also of course have to consider your financial circumstances and whether you can afford to take a pay cut. Will they negotiate salary at all? Sometimes, agencies will allow you to go up a few steps (within the same grade-- in this instance, GS-11) to help match your salary. It can't hurt to ask. Can I ask if it's BVA or SSA?

Not BVA or SSA. I like the agency and it seems to have good promotion potential. It is a "universal" area of gov law that I can take with me. I already asked and they do not negotiable grade or step.

But I think I'll suck it up and take it. I can eat ramen for a few more years if that means I can relax in my free time.

[Anonymous User]

Wow, gs-12 after 3 years experience is really tough. Is this a position with SSA or the VA? I have heard those agencies specifically try to keep salaries down, which is why they are so frequently hiring.

Those agencies hire a lot of attorneys not because salary is low (they tend to be GS-11 to 14 with annual promotions), but because turnover is unusually high due to the production requirements and resulting low morale. One of them has such problems getting people to sign on that they just opened up GS-9 positions.

[lessperfect]

I have 1 year, 7 mos experience in the private sector. It's experience that doesn't translate to government positions. I currently make ~$130,000, but I don't enjoy it and I want a better work/life balance.

I have an offer for a GS11/1 federal position (potential 14). Am I crazy for wanting to take this? I would switch to PAYE and go for forgiveness.

I think it totally depends on the agency and whether you are interested in their work. Also, if you don't like it, does the agency have exit options? You also of course have to consider your financial circumstances and whether you can afford to take a pay cut. Will they negotiate salary at all? Sometimes, agencies will allow you to go up a few steps (within the same grade-- in this instance, GS-11) to help match your salary. It can't hurt to ask. Can I ask if it's BVA or SSA?

Not BVA or SSA. I like the agency and it seems to have good promotion potential. It is a "universal" area of gov law that I can take with me. I already asked and they do not negotiable grade or step.

But I think I'll suck it up and take it. I can eat ramen for a few more years if that means I can relax in my free time.

Well, it sounds like you've largely made your decision. Work/life balance is really important, so I don't think you're crazy for taking it (obviously, not knowing your personal or financial circumstances). Congrats on the position; it's pretty hard to land a Gov't job these days.

[Anonymous User]

I have 1 year, 7 mos experience in the private sector. It's experience that doesn't translate to government positions. I currently make ~$130,000, but I don't enjoy it and I want a better work/life balance.

I have an offer for a GS11/1 federal position (potential 14). Am I crazy for wanting to take this? I would switch to PAYE and go for forgiveness.

I think it totally depends on the agency and whether you are interested in their work. Also, if you don't like it, does the agency have exit options? You also of course have to consider your financial circumstances and whether you can afford to take a pay cut. Will they negotiate salary at all? Sometimes, agencies will allow you to go up a few steps (within the same grade-- in this instance, GS-11) to help match your salary. It can't hurt to ask. Can I ask if it's BVA or SSA?

Not BVA or SSA. I like the agency and it seems to have good promotion potential. It is a "universal" area of gov law that I can take with me. I already asked and they do not negotiable grade or step.

But I think I'll suck it up and take it. I can eat ramen for a few more years if that means I can relax in my free time.

Well, it sounds like you've largely made your decision. Work/life balance is really important, so I don't think you're crazy for taking it (obviously, not knowing your personal or financial circumstances). Congrats on the position; it's pretty hard to land a Gov't job these days.

Different anon, but I'll also throw out there that the pay cut, while severe, is pretty heavily offset by that non-taxable PSLF "bonus" you get after 120 qualifying payments. (Assuming of course that, worst-case scenario, any changes to PSLF will grandfather in us graduates). Especially if you're in an agency like mine where you automatically get to GS-14 at the start of year 4 as an attorney, it can be hard to make enough to override that PSLF windfall. Congrats, and I hope, if you go through with it, you enjoy it!

[Anonymous User]

How does promotion work in the feds? For instance, if promotion potential for a position is GS-15, do you do a year at each level working up to 15 and then progress through each step of 15?

For most fed attorney jobs it's GS-11 to GS-14 with an "automatic" promotion every year (except it usually takes an extra year to go from GS-13 to GS-14). I use quotation marks because technically it's not automatic; you only make the grade promotion if you've demonstrated during the preceding year that you've successfully carried out the duties of your present grade. But the large majority of people get their promotions, so it's almost a given.

Re: GS-15, once you're promoted to a grade, you start at step 1. The exception is if you had so many steps in your lower grade that you would actually lose money if you were promoted a grade. I think OPM has a rule governing those situations; regardless, people often negotiate an extra number of steps to match their salary in their last grade. In general, though, you start the steps all over once you're promoted a grade. I believe it takes around 17 years to go through all the steps...so get to GS-15 as soon as you can

In career ladder promotions OPM rule is that you go to the step that is the first step higher than your current salary plus 3 steps (technically, you are promoted to the next step of your current grade first, and then to the next grade that is two steps higher than that salary). E.g., If you're a 12 step 3, your GS-13 salary has to be > GS-12 step 6. I may be wrong, but I *think* the same holds for competitive placement at the next higher grade.

[Anonymous User]

I’m in a non-GS agency right now with 4.5 years of exp. they’ve got me at what would be the equivalent of a low-step GS14. I’ve been eyeballing other federal agencies and wondered what those agencies generally do for someone in my position re: salary. The jobs I’m looking at are mostly in DC (and I’m not currently in DC).

The only published policy I’ve been able to find is with USAOs, which sometimes take your “last highest federal salary” and at least try to match it. Anyone have any other insight?

[Anonymous User]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

[claptrap]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

At least in the USAO, you are required every year to certify that you are an active member of a state bar in good standing, and you are required to pay your own bar dues.

An unexpected change from my former practice as a state DA in a mid-size office, which covered our bar dues for us.

[lessperfect]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

At a financial regulatory agency- they pay for one bar's dues every year. Pretty sure we need to keep it active.

[Anonymous User]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

At least in the USAO, you are required every year to certify that you are an active member of a state bar in good standing, and you are required to pay your own bar dues.

An unexpected change from my former practice as a state DA in a mid-size office, which covered our bar dues for us.

That's ridiculous. They expect you to pay all your CLE too? On a government salary?

[claptrap]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

At least in the USAO, you are required every year to certify that you are an active member of a state bar in good standing, and you are required to pay your own bar dues.

An unexpected change from my former practice as a state DA in a mid-size office, which covered our bar dues for us.

That's ridiculous. They expect you to pay all your CLE too? On a government salary?

The training, at least, is covered (and to be honest, it's quite good--absolutely zero complaints there).

Admittedly, I was also less than impressed with the bar dues thing, what with even my former smallish rural state DA's office covering them.

[Anonymous User]

DOJ is notoriously stingy. Both federal agencies I've worked for paid my bar dues and CLEs.

[Anonymous User]

Random question: How do federal attorneys maintain their bar memberships? Does everyone keep it active? Does the gov help pay the dues? Do they go inactive?

I imagine they go inactive - but in that case, how do people apply for other federal jobs later on that require an active bar membership in at least one state?

At my agency in D.C., you're on your own; the government doesn't pay your dues or anything. In terms of CLE though, they do put on their own CLEs which you can attend during working hours. The problem is that for whatever reason, they'll only report to jurisdictions like Virginia, and it's a pain to get them to send forms to other states.

We have to submit certificates of good standing from our state certifying authority once a year.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with the Fed Not that Great Overall subject, however I do concede it is agency specific.

Fed is Great if you work for: DOJ/CIA/CFPB/SEC/FTC/FCC/FDIC/FERC, etc.
Fed Not so great if you work for SSA/VA/USSS/ICE OCC, etc (any attorney position that doesn't ladder to GS-15)

This is due to the type of work you are given and the resources available to perform this work.

As for pay- Attorneys in the GS scale on the Fed Great list usually are GS-15, non-supervisory, after 4 years experience. For those in the banking or financial regulatory agencies, their salaries are over the Ex Lv4 cap, surpassing GS15.

As for benefits, you cannot beat have a defined benefit plan (even if it is not as generous as some state and city plans)even if new employees contribute 4.4%. If you do the math, if a capped GS15 contributed 4.4% over 32 years, the contribution is approximately 230k. If that person retired today with 32 years of service at 62, they would receive about 60k a year in pension, making up those contributions after 4 years. Then there is a 5% salary 401(k) matching (which most firms do not have). Further, built in life insurance for very cheap and pretty good coverage healthcare for a small pre tax payment is great. Further, at least in DC, all your public transportation costs are covered.

As for rewards for performance- There are on the spot awards or bonuses given for outstanding work as well as QSI (quality step increases) which take an employee to the next step in salary, which is usually 3-4% greater.

Why do you think most ppl go from big firms to Gov service, important high profile work (at least in the good agencies) better QOL, less stress, less hours, decent pay for what you do, PSLF, etc.

-DOJ Attorney

[Anonymous User]

As an attorney at one of the Fed Not So Great agencies identified in the above post (VA) I hate to agree but I think the post is pretty on point. While there are great things about my job (telework, 4-day week, little stress, GS-13 after 2 years, GS-14 after 2 more with a chance for GS-15 or higher if you become a supervisor or admin judge), the work is not exciting, and is challenging, but only because the system is so broken and frustrating. If you are going to be happy doing frustrating, tedious, repetitive work for years and years in order to have the good parts of a federal job, you may be happy at one of these agencies, but my impression is Fed IS Great only when you can combine the good parts with interesting, rewarding work at an agency like those identified in the post above.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with the Fed Not that Great Overall subject, however I do concede it is agency specific.

Fed is Great if you work for: DOJ/CIA/CFPB/SEC/FTC/FCC/FDIC/FERC, etc.
Fed Not so great if you work for SSA/VA/USSS/ICE OCC, etc (any attorney position that doesn't ladder to GS-15)

This is due to the type of work you are given and the resources available to perform this work.

As for pay- Attorneys in the GS scale on the Fed Great list usually are GS-15, non-supervisory, after 4 years experience. For those in the banking or financial regulatory agencies, their salaries are over the Ex Lv4 cap, surpassing GS15.

As for benefits, you cannot beat have a defined benefit plan (even if it is not as generous as some state and city plans)even if new employees contribute 4.4%. If you do the math, if a capped GS15 contributed 4.4% over 32 years, the contribution is approximately 230k. If that person retired today with 32 years of service at 62, they would receive about 60k a year in pension, making up those contributions after 4 years. Then there is a 5% salary 401(k) matching (which most firms do not have). Further, built in life insurance for very cheap and pretty good coverage healthcare for a small pre tax payment is great. Further, at least in DC, all your public transportation costs are covered.

As for rewards for performance- There are on the spot awards or bonuses given for outstanding work as well as QSI (quality step increases) which take an employee to the next step in salary, which is usually 3-4% greater.

Why do you think most ppl go from big firms to Gov service, important high profile work (at least in the good agencies) better QOL, less stress, less hours, decent pay for what you do, PSLF, etc.

-DOJ Attorney

Anon because I work at the OCC, but the OCC is not on the GS scale and is a great place to work. It has great pay/benefits as well.

[Anonymous User]

My agency doesn't even pay for parking. That's another $200/mo down the drain.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with the Fed Not that Great Overall subject, however I do concede it is agency specific.

Fed is Great if you work for: DOJ/CIA/CFPB/SEC/FTC/FCC/FDIC/FERC, etc.
Fed Not so great if you work for SSA/VA/USSS/ICE OCC, etc (any attorney position that doesn't ladder to GS-15)

This is due to the type of work you are given and the resources available to perform this work.

As for pay- Attorneys in the GS scale on the Fed Great list usually are GS-15, non-supervisory, after 4 years experience. For those in the banking or financial regulatory agencies, their salaries are over the Ex Lv4 cap, surpassing GS15.

As for benefits, you cannot beat have a defined benefit plan (even if it is not as generous as some state and city plans)even if new employees contribute 4.4%. If you do the math, if a capped GS15 contributed 4.4% over 32 years, the contribution is approximately 230k. If that person retired today with 32 years of service at 62, they would receive about 60k a year in pension, making up those contributions after 4 years. Then there is a 5% salary 401(k) matching (which most firms do not have). Further, built in life insurance for very cheap and pretty good coverage healthcare for a small pre tax payment is great. Further, at least in DC, all your public transportation costs are covered.

As for rewards for performance- There are on the spot awards or bonuses given for outstanding work as well as QSI (quality step increases) which take an employee to the next step in salary, which is usually 3-4% greater.

Why do you think most ppl go from big firms to Gov service, important high profile work (at least in the good agencies) better QOL, less stress, less hours, decent pay for what you do, PSLF, etc.

-DOJ Attorney

Anon because I work at the OCC, but the OCC is not on the GS scale and is a great place to work. It has great pay/benefits as well.

I was referring to ICE OCC which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office of Chief Counsel.
OCC in Treasury is a great place to work!

-DOJ Attorney

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with the Fed Not that Great Overall subject, however I do concede it is agency specific.

Fed is Great if you work for: DOJ/CIA/CFPB/SEC/FTC/FCC/FDIC/FERC, etc.
Fed Not so great if you work for SSA/VA/USSS/ICE OCC, etc (any attorney position that doesn't ladder to GS-15)

This is due to the type of work you are given and the resources available to perform this work.

As for pay- Attorneys in the GS scale on the Fed Great list usually are GS-15, non-supervisory, after 4 years experience. For those in the banking or financial regulatory agencies, their salaries are over the Ex Lv4 cap, surpassing GS15.

As for benefits, you cannot beat have a defined benefit plan (even if it is not as generous as some state and city plans)even if new employees contribute 4.4%. If you do the math, if a capped GS15 contributed 4.4% over 32 years, the contribution is approximately 230k. If that person retired today with 32 years of service at 62, they would receive about 60k a year in pension, making up those contributions after 4 years. Then there is a 5% salary 401(k) matching (which most firms do not have). Further, built in life insurance for very cheap and pretty good coverage healthcare for a small pre tax payment is great. Further, at least in DC, all your public transportation costs are covered.

As for rewards for performance- There are on the spot awards or bonuses given for outstanding work as well as QSI (quality step increases) which take an employee to the next step in salary, which is usually 3-4% greater.

Why do you think most ppl go from big firms to Gov service, important high profile work (at least in the good agencies) better QOL, less stress, less hours, decent pay for what you do, PSLF, etc.

-DOJ Attorney

Anon because I work at the OCC, but the OCC is not on the GS scale and is a great place to work. It has great pay/benefits as well.

I was referring to ICE OCC which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office of Chief Counsel.
OCC in Treasury is a great place to work!

-DOJ Attorney

Ah, that makes sense. Too many acronyms.