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Where do you go if you're doing issuer side lev fin deals (bank/credit deals and/or high yield bond work).

I know most people end up in banks if they are going in house. What kind of roles are these @ the banks? Also, what other possible exit opps are there if you don't like the specific type of work? I think it would be harder to get a general corp in house role compared to an M&A associate?

Bump

Definitely harder to get general corporate roles. To be honest, in house options are hard to get from this area. Get out if your goal is in house anywhere other than a financial institution.

Kind of sucks because I think this work is more intellectually rigorous than other process monkey work corporate associates are doing, but I have generally not heard of good exit options outside of banks. They are the only ones that need these sorts of experts. I wonder if maybe PE also but doubt it.

How do I even switch practice areas as an incoming associate? I think I picked the wrong firm. I'd rather do something else that is hot like privacy law, or even something like tech transactions.

I really don't want to end up in-house at a bank.

It may be interesting for partners and seniors, but it's unrelenting paperwork and stressful drudgery for juniors. Don't do lev fin or any other practice area. Just don't do big law at all.

exits are basically only banks, which means you're basically forever in NYC and a handful of other financial centers in the US. mostly "park the car" type roles. not necessarily bad but certainly narrower than the options coming out of general corporate. if you ever envision yourself moving to another city in the future or working at a company, probs not the practice for you. companies dont need someone who has spent years churning out commitment papers and negotiating credit agreements.

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Anonymous User wrote:How do I even switch practice areas as an incoming associate? I think I picked the wrong firm. I'd rather do something else that is hot like privacy law, or even something like tech transactions.

I really don't want to end up in-house at a bank.

I also was looking at switching practice areas pre starting. I think that at this point the consensus was; if you did some work in the other group in the summer, reach out to those peopel you know. If not, then start work adn work for liek 6 mo-1yr but during that time make connections in the practice group you want to work in. Then when try to get them to give you work and switch within your own firm.

Thing to understand is that even senior associates from top firms have trouble getting good in-house roles from leveraged finance. Banks don't need that many lev. fin attorneys and private equity firms, even large ones, need maybe one or two tops. I worked at a V10 firm for yea and a half before leaving, in that time (and since then) I have heard of maybe three associates going in-house at banks, the rest went to other firms. People that go in-house also are usually far more senior than M&A in house opportunities, meaning you don't good exit options until year 5/6. That is a long time to do work that isn't that interesting for the small chance you get a good in-house role.

Definitely try to get out as soon as possible. Start looking to lateral to other firms right off the bat and try switching groups fast.

If you do high-yield bond work, doesn't that involve you in securities work and occasionally 34 Act reporting? B/c there's a real market for public company lawyers who can run a company's securities work.

I'm a midlevel finance associate at a top firm in NYC. Agreed that exit opportunities might not be as good as they are for M&A associates, however it's definitely not impossible to get a general in-house job. A 5-6th year associate in my group left recently for a general in-house job at a top tech company.

I haven't applied for in-house jobs personally so I'm not an expert on the topic. I just don't want people to think that only M&A lawyers can get general in-house positions.

Not that it matters for new grads as nobody knows what the market will do in the future, but at the moment there is a lot more lateral demand for finance associates (in NY at least) than for M&A associates. It's been this way for a while- could change overnight though.

Anonymous User wrote:Thing to understand is that even senior associates from top firms have trouble getting good in-house roles from leveraged finance. Banks don't need that many lev. fin attorneys and private equity firms, even large ones, need maybe one or two tops. I worked at a V10 firm for yea and a half before leaving, in that time (and since then) I have heard of maybe three associates going in-house at banks, the rest went to other firms. People that go in-house also are usually far more senior than M&A in house opportunities, meaning you don't good exit options until year 5/6. That is a long time to do work that isn't that interesting for the small chance you get a good in-house role.

Definitely try to get out as soon as possible. Start looking to lateral to other firms right off the bat and try switching groups fast.

I want to caution people still in law school from taking any advice on this forum about which specialty is more interesting/enjoyable. I did an M&A rotation and hated it, but generally enjoy finance work. Others might love M&A and hate finance- you can't know what you'll like without trying it.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Thing to understand is that even senior associates from top firms have trouble getting good in-house roles from leveraged finance. Banks don't need that many lev. fin attorneys and private equity firms, even large ones, need maybe one or two tops. I worked at a V10 firm for yea and a half before leaving, in that time (and since then) I have heard of maybe three associates going in-house at banks, the rest went to other firms. People that go in-house also are usually far more senior than M&A in house opportunities, meaning you don't good exit options until year 5/6. That is a long time to do work that isn't that interesting for the small chance you get a good in-house role.

Definitely try to get out as soon as possible. Start looking to lateral to other firms right off the bat and try switching groups fast.

I want to caution people still in law school from taking any advice on this forum about which specialty is more interesting/enjoyable. I did an M&A rotation and hated it, but generally enjoy finance work. Others might love M&A and hate finance- you can't know what you'll like without trying it.

None of it is interesting, but spending 3 years doing shit work to go in-house is better than doing 6 years of shit work.

This thread has some strange advice and "wisdom." Compared to most of my M&A colleagues, I think I'm doing a lot more substantive work than they are as a 3rd year. Many juniors in my firm are still primarily running schedules, coordinating specialists, and blindly putting changes into principal documents. We usually have a ton of ancillary documents on any particular finance deal, so there's more opportunity to jump in and actually learn things. I haven't done M&A work, but I find finance work intellectually interest and very challenging.

As for exit options, I am just beginning to poke around a bit. But I've done a few interviews for non-finance in house positions, and I haven't noticed that it negatively impacted me. Many of the positions I see request very specific experience (IE 5+ years of FCPA experience, 3+ years in healthcare fraud and abuse, etc.). But most of the more generalist ones are worded as something like "corporate and contract experience at a major law firm." It may require some spin, and it probably doesn't hurt to pick up some other corporate experience along the way. But I don't think being a Finance Attorney means your only in house choice is at a bank.

Also, I should say that I live and work in a secondary market without much of a banking presence, so I'm basically SOL for true in house finance positions anyway.

Places have third years doing checklists/schedules?

I'm finishing my second year in finance at a V50 NYC office and I still do checklists and schedules. I've been the most junior person on every deal so it falls to me. The rest of the work sucks too and I think even senior and partner level work is incredibly boring. Frankly if the subject matter is interesting then you should have been a banker because the important stuff isn't up to lawyers. Trying to get out as soon as possible because I hate biglaw and don't want to be in house at a bank in NYC churning out these same docs.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm finishing my second year in finance at a V50 NYC office and I still do checklists and schedules. I've been the most junior person on every deal so it falls to me. The rest of the work sucks too and I think even senior and partner level work is incredibly boring. Frankly if the subject matter is interesting then you should have been a banker because the important stuff isn't up to lawyers. Trying to get out as soon as possible because I hate biglaw and don't want to be in house at a bank in NYC churning out these same docs.

Good luck! Keep us posted on where you end up

I would go out of my mind if I had to bill big law hours only being a checklist monkey.

bump. I like doing high yield bond work and realize I def don't like doing credit agreements. Is there a preference right now in the market for which skills are more highly desirable / transferable?

Anonymous User wrote:I'm finishing my second year in finance at a V50 NYC office and I still do checklists and schedules. I've been the most junior person on every deal so it falls to me. The rest of the work sucks too and I think even senior and partner level work is incredibly boring. Frankly if the subject matter is interesting then you should have been a banker because the important stuff isn't up to lawyers. Trying to get out as soon as possible because I hate biglaw and don't want to be in house at a bank in NYC churning out these same docs.

Bump. Where did you end up anon?

Anonymous User wrote:bump. I like doing high yield bond work and realize I def don't like doing credit agreements. Is there a preference right now in the market for which skills are more highly desirable / transferable?

Also bump for this. I like doing the bond side way more than the banking side too. Can I sping high yield bond work and try to go into more general cap markets work (investment grade and equity?)

bump, if no personal experience, anecdotes or stories welcome.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I'm finishing my second year in finance at a V50 NYC office and I still do checklists and schedules. I've been the most junior person on every deal so it falls to me. The rest of the work sucks too and I think even senior and partner level work is incredibly boring. Frankly if the subject matter is interesting then you should have been a banker because the important stuff isn't up to lawyers. Trying to get out as soon as possible because I hate biglaw and don't want to be in house at a bank in NYC churning out these same docs.

Bump. Where did you end up anon?

I’m the anon you’re asking about. I tried for a year to lateral and re-tool, and firms just weren’t having it. It didn’t help that almost every firm that had an opening in a different group also had one in finance (seems like finance is always hiring laterals) so their HR/recruiting department would basically tell my recruiter that I only had a shot at finance. Recruiters generally want to place you ASAP so it’s not like they were eager to fight the firm HR/recruiting coordinators and prolong the search endlessly or risk the firm souring on the recruiter.

I had one fintech in house interview that went nowhere - I wasn’t experienced enough. Ended up lateraling to a much better firm in the hope that at least the exit options from this place will be better.

The unfortunate reality is that sometimes the practice area you’re in is just assigned to you because of your firm’s need and it can be very difficult to get away. Life isn’t fair. No idea what the future holds at this point but I hope to have more luck for in house positions in a couple years because fuck doing this forever.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I'm finishing my second year in finance at a V50 NYC office and I still do checklists and schedules. I've been the most junior person on every deal so it falls to me. The rest of the work sucks too and I think even senior and partner level work is incredibly boring. Frankly if the subject matter is interesting then you should have been a banker because the important stuff isn't up to lawyers. Trying to get out as soon as possible because I hate biglaw and don't want to be in house at a bank in NYC churning out these same docs.

Bump. Where did you end up anon?

I’m the anon you’re asking about. I tried for a year to lateral and re-tool, and firms just weren’t having it. It didn’t help that almost every firm that had an opening in a different group also had one in finance (seems like finance is always hiring laterals) so their HR/recruiting department would basically tell my recruiter that I only had a shot at finance. Recruiters generally want to place you ASAP so it’s not like they were eager to fight the firm HR/recruiting coordinators and prolong the search endlessly or risk the firm souring on the recruiter.

I had one fintech in house interview that went nowhere - I wasn’t experienced enough. Ended up lateraling to a much better firm in the hope that at least the exit options from this place will be better.

The unfortunate reality is that sometimes the practice area you’re in is just assigned to you because of your firm’s need and it can be very difficult to get away. Life isn’t fair. No idea what the future holds at this point but I hope to have more luck for in house positions in a couple years because fuck doing this forever.

Thank you so much for the update. So you're doing finance at your new firm too? Any way to manage what you're doing like maybe focusing onto specific industries (life-science, tech or it seems some associates had success doing like real estate finance)? I imagine the firms don't want to really let you re-tool and do something completely different or even general corporate.

If you had experience doing high-yield debt work in additional to "traditional" bank finance, would it be possible to try to broaden your experience at another firm and try to get investment grade work or equities instead of focusing on the credit agreement side of your practice and thus helping with exits?

Bump. Can anyone else chime in/share their experience/thoughts on LevFin/High Yield?