Top Law Schools

Alright everyone,

1) I am thankful for all the help you veterans have given me.

2) I would like some help with my bid list. T6 school as a transfer. (1L top 8% at my 70-80 TT).

3) Practice Areas. Here is what I want. I love litigation. To me, litigation is litigation and I am happy with anything except for PI. Interested in Big Law (not NY) or elite litigation boutique/ cushy in-house job.

In particular, I like Real Estate Litigation, Complex Litigation (ie class action product liability, or mass frauds/ponzi schemes) and IP litigation (maybe also antitrust).

4) Desired Market. Here, you'll need to help me because I'm international with limited knowledge of most U.S. markets. Here are some things I like, it doesn't have to have everything.
A) Denver or to the East of Denver
B) Low taxes/ low cost of living (NYC is a hard NO)
C) Politically diverse climate
4) NFL football team or close proximity to a T25 College Team
5) Solid live music scene
6) Not particularly superficial (I'll live with Miami but you get the picture)
7) Pretty cityscape / nice urban neighborhoods (ie not commuter cities with dirty city centers - not gonna call any out).

4) Work Hours

Would love to work 60 hours a week. No less and no more.

Thanks!

Also feel free to DM.

This is very specific . . .

Two issues:

1. You gotta let go on the "60 hours no less, no more." Nothing is going to be that steady or predictable.

2. You're going to get nothing "cushy" straight out of law school.

I would think Chicago is your best bet if you want to be east of Denver. Maybe Houston, but I don't know if the neighborhoods there would fit your criteria.

DC also has a lower cost of living relative to the other major markets and hits the rest of your criteria.

You'll have to give us your possible bid list for any further assistance.

Dude, I don't think smaller markets are lining up to hire internationals with zero ties to their area. You need to re-assess your no-NYC policy fast.

cron1834 wrote:Dude, I don't think smaller markets are lining up to hire internationals with zero ties to their area. You need to re-assess your no-NYC policy fast.

Got ties to Miami.

SmokeytheBear wrote:This is very specific . . .

Two issues:

1. You gotta let go on the "60 hours no less, no more." Nothing is going to be that steady or predictable.

2. You're going to get nothing "cushy" straight out of law school.

I would think Chicago is your best bet if you want to be east of Denver. Maybe Houston, but I don't know if the neighborhoods there would fit your criteria.

DC also has a lower cost of living relative to the other major markets and hits the rest of your criteria.

You'll have to give us your possible bid list for any further assistance.

What about Boston? High taxes/col I know, but has most of the others - right?

OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

KijiStewart wrote:

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

Maybe a little bit, but there are so few SAs there that there are going to be a million strong canidates FROM Miami that won't be able to crack the market.

New York has something like 40% of the SAs in the country and doesn't care about ties. You will be in major danger of striking out if you don't bid it heavily.

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

Maybe a little bit, but there are so few SAs there that there are going to be a million strong canidates FROM Miami that won't be able to crack the market.

New York has something like 40% of the SAs in the country and doesn't care about ties. You will be in major danger of striking out if you don't bid it heavily.

Should I start e-mailing Miami firms who aren't doing EIW asap or would that be a waste of time. If it means anything, I know the Miami Duane Morris (lowly ranked V100) hired a SA who did just this because they didn't recruit at his school.

Also, thoughts anyone on the Miami Baker Mckenzie office?

You can mass mail every Miami biglaw office right now, unless any come to your OCI and you can pick the screeners up there. After that, you really should bid all-NYC or close to it at OCI.

KijiStewart wrote:

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

Maybe a little bit, but there are so few SAs there that there are going to be a million strong canidates FROM Miami that won't be able to crack the market.

New York has something like 40% of the SAs in the country and doesn't care about ties. You will be in major danger of striking out if you don't bid it heavily.

Should I start e-mailing Miami firms who aren't doing EIW asap or would that be a waste of time. If it means anything, I know the Miami Duane Morris (lowly ranked V100) hired a SA who did just this because they didn't recruit at his school.

Also, thoughts anyone on the Miami Baker Mckenzie office?

Yes. Mass mail them all and focus your EIW on more realistic options. If a Miami firm bites via Mass Mail then great, but you need to have other options.

Re: Baker Mckenzie, according to NALP it's 25 person office. Last year they took only one SA and gave no offers. This is what I was saying about the basically non-existent number of SAs.

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

Maybe a little bit, but there are so few SAs there that there are going to be a million strong canidates FROM Miami that won't be able to crack the market.

New York has something like 40% of the SAs in the country and doesn't care about ties. You will be in major danger of striking out if you don't bid it heavily.

Should I start e-mailing Miami firms who aren't doing EIW asap or would that be a waste of time. If it means anything, I know the Miami Duane Morris (lowly ranked V100) hired a SA who did just this because they didn't recruit at his school.

Also, thoughts anyone on the Miami Baker Mckenzie office?

Yes. Mass mail them all and focus your EIW on more realistic options. If a Miami firm bites via Mass Mail then great, but you need to have other options.

Re: Baker Mckenzie, according to NALP it's 25 person office. Last year they took only one SA and gave no offers. This is what I was saying about the basically non-existent number of SAs.

Would it hurt to mass e-mail non EIW participating firms in other cities that meet my criteria?

KijiStewart wrote:

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

existentialcrisis wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

grades?? wrote:OP is in the perfect scenario to strike out. Need to bid NYC especially because you are international.

Does grandparents (+ other close family) living in Miami + having gone there for EVERY 2-week Christmas break of my life count as ties?

Maybe a little bit, but there are so few SAs there that there are going to be a million strong canidates FROM Miami that won't be able to crack the market.

New York has something like 40% of the SAs in the country and doesn't care about ties. You will be in major danger of striking out if you don't bid it heavily.

Should I start e-mailing Miami firms who aren't doing EIW asap or would that be a waste of time. If it means anything, I know the Miami Duane Morris (lowly ranked V100) hired a SA who did just this because they didn't recruit at his school.

Also, thoughts anyone on the Miami Baker Mckenzie office?

Yes. Mass mail them all and focus your EIW on more realistic options. If a Miami firm bites via Mass Mail then great, but you need to have other options.

Re: Baker Mckenzie, according to NALP it's 25 person office. Last year they took only one SA and gave no offers. This is what I was saying about the basically non-existent number of SAs.

Would it hurt to mass e-mail non EIW participating firms in other cities that meet my criteria?

You should be mass mailing everywhere.

cron1834 wrote:Dude, I don't think smaller markets are lining up to hire internationals with zero ties to their area. You need to re-assess your no-NYC policy fast.

I'd like to second (or third+ at this point) this right here. You are doing yourself a severe disservice if you do not bid NY. Every other geographic market is looking for ties, and some require stronger than others.

Realistically you're perhaps looking at the following cities:
Boston - Perhaps a little more lax on the ties, but generally staffs its classes from BC/BU students or T14 from Boston.
Philadelphia - want's Pennsylvania ties.
Washington DC - generally very competitive, small SA classes but draws interviews from all the top schools.
Charlotte - Usually looking for North Carolina ties, but I think sometimes settles for just southern ties in general. Don't hold me to it, but I think is more transactional work based on Bank of America and its ties.
Atlanta - Looking for Georgia ties. They have plenty of people interested in its lower cost of living and tons of interested (desperate?) students from local law schools.
Miami - Smaller SA classes, turn away people form Florida all the time because there's so much interest. There's a lot to love about working in Miami (no state income tax anyone?) and they tend to get slammed with applicants. I also think at this point in July they probably have very long established lists of people they're interested in.
Chicago - Don't know too much, but does have many respectable firms. Probably laxer on the ties than a lot of the secondary markets here, but I wouldn't be surprised if they press about it with an international student.
Houston/Austin/Dallas: I think are looking for Texas ties, or at least a southern respect. Maybe easier to break into since the Texas economy is doing quite well and may have a lot of Real Estate litigation (Houston zoning issues anyone?)

All said and done you should really take NY into consideration. You haven't had the benefit of being at a top school for your 1L year to see, in person, how competitive this process will be for other markets. NY takes the most summer associates by far and most career services departments I know of would press anyone outside of the top 10% of their class to seriously bid NY offices. Don't expect things to be a cakewalk once you walk into your new transferred school - you'll be competing with hyper-competitive individuals.

You need to ask yourself if you are okay with not landing a summer position. That is a very likely scenario if you do not bid NY. Another aspect I'm unsure about is VISA-sponsorship at smaller or mid-market firms which you seem to be interested in. While big NY firms have the resources to not care much, other firms will not look particularly favorably on it. My understanding is companies pay ~$5-7.5k just to sponsor you (and cannot legally shift that burden to you), you need to ask yourself if a 25 person shop in Miami is really going to go out of their way for you.

PotatoSalad wrote:

cron1834 wrote:Dude, I don't think smaller markets are lining up to hire internationals with zero ties to their area. You need to re-assess your no-NYC policy fast.

I'd like to second (or third+ at this point) this right here. You are doing yourself a severe disservice if you do not bid NY. Every other geographic market is looking for ties, and some require stronger than others.

Realistically you're perhaps looking at the following cities:
Boston - Perhaps a little more lax on the ties, but generally staffs its classes from BC/BU students or T14 from Boston.
Philadelphia - want's Pennsylvania ties.
Washington DC - generally very competitive, small SA classes but draws interviews from all the top schools.
Charlotte - Usually looking for North Carolina ties, but I think sometimes settles for just southern ties in general. Don't hold me to it, but I think is more transactional work based on Bank of America and its ties.
Atlanta - Looking for Georgia ties. They have plenty of people interested in its lower cost of living and tons of interested (desperate?) students from local law schools.
Miami - Smaller SA classes, turn away people form Florida all the time because there's so much interest. There's a lot to love about working in Miami (no state income tax anyone?) and they tend to get slammed with applicants. I also think at this point in July they probably have very long established lists of people they're interested in.
Chicago - Don't know too much, but does have many respectable firms. Probably laxer on the ties than a lot of the secondary markets here, but I wouldn't be surprised if they press about it with an international student.
Houston/Austin/Dallas: I think are looking for Texas ties, or at least a southern respect. Maybe easier to break into since the Texas economy is doing quite well and may have a lot of Real Estate litigation (Houston zoning issues anyone?)

All said and done you should really take NY into consideration. You haven't had the benefit of being at a top school for your 1L year to see, in person, how competitive this process will be for other markets. NY takes the most summer associates by far and most career services departments I know of would press anyone outside of the top 10% of their class to seriously bid NY offices. Don't expect things to be a cakewalk once you walk into your new transferred school - you'll be competing with hyper-competitive individuals.

You need to ask yourself if you are okay with not landing a summer position. That is a very likely scenario if you do not bid NY. Another aspect I'm unsure about is VISA-sponsorship at smaller or mid-market firms which you seem to be interested in. While big NY firms have the resources to not care much, other firms will not look particularly favorably on it. My understanding is companies pay ~$5-7.5k just to sponsor you (and cannot legally shift that burden to you), you need to ask yourself if a 25 person shop in Miami is really going to go out of their way for you.

Does every practice group at S&C NY work 65+ hours? I've always been enamored with it, yet at the same time don't know if I can handle it and don't want to waste a bid on a firm whose hypothetical offer I'll have to reject.

Per my post above, if you want to do big law you need to give up the idea that you're going to have any control over the number of hours you work or the predictability. Sure some firm you can skate by and be anonymous, but it's a crap shoot. Hours will be bad sometimes and be not bad other times, but rarely predictable.

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:<Post unrelated to S&C>

Does every practice group at S&C NY work 65+ hours? I've always been enamored with it, yet at the same time don't know if I can handle it and don't want to waste a bid on a firm whose hypothetical offer I'll have to reject.

I am no expert on S&C, and I'm curious why you'd be interested in them if you're hesitant about NY in general, but I believe I've heard that junior associates at S&C often don't have to work Sundays.

I also don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer student that went from a school ranked 70-80 when they turn down stellar students that didn't have to transfer. Considering the average transfer student to Columbia has a GPA of 3.71 from their past school, and S&C would probably be targeting students with that GPA who spent their first year at Columbia, I don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer.

If you're hesitant about being worked to death, why not consider firms V20-V50. Honestly that's where I'd target if I were a transfer.

PotatoSalad wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:<Post unrelated to S&C>

Does every practice group at S&C NY work 65+ hours? I've always been enamored with it, yet at the same time don't know if I can handle it and don't want to waste a bid on a firm whose hypothetical offer I'll have to reject.

I am no expert on S&C, and I'm curious why you'd be interested in them if you're hesitant about NY in general, but I believe I've heard that junior associates at S&C often don't have to work Sundays.

I also don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer student that went from a school ranked 70-80 when they turn down stellar students that didn't have to transfer. Considering the average transfer student to Columbia has a GPA of 3.71 from their past school, and S&C would probably be targeting students with that GPA who spent their first year at Columbia, I don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer.

If you're hesitant about being worked to death, why not consider firms V20-V50. Honestly that's where I'd target if I were a transfer.

V20 - V50 is perfectly cool with me. I'm even ok with V75.

1) Anyone got an idea about Sidley Austin NY hours.

2) Do personal contacts at these firms help if a firm is doing EIW. Ie a former classmate or close relative being either an associate / experienced investment banker + serious client of firm. I ask because if I have a contact at firm X, should I bid it higher.

Re: S & C. For some reason I've always viewed it as having tons of prestige. Can't deny I like prestige, but its not a dealbreaker for me.

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:<Post unrelated to S&C>

Does every practice group at S&C NY work 65+ hours? I've always been enamored with it, yet at the same time don't know if I can handle it and don't want to waste a bid on a firm whose hypothetical offer I'll have to reject.

I am no expert on S&C, and I'm curious why you'd be interested in them if you're hesitant about NY in general, but I believe I've heard that junior associates at S&C often don't have to work Sundays.

I also don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer student that went from a school ranked 70-80 when they turn down stellar students that didn't have to transfer. Considering the average transfer student to Columbia has a GPA of 3.71 from their past school, and S&C would probably be targeting students with that GPA who spent their first year at Columbia, I don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer.

If you're hesitant about being worked to death, why not consider firms V20-V50. Honestly that's where I'd target if I were a transfer.

V20 - V50 is perfectly cool with me. I'm even ok with V75.

1) Anyone got an idea about Sidley Austin NY hours.

2) Do personal contacts at these firms help if a firm is doing EIW. Ie a former classmate or close relative being either an associate / experienced investment banker + serious client of firm. I ask because if I have a contact at firm X, should I bid it higher.

Re: S & C. For some reason I've always viewed it as having tons of prestige. Can't deny I like prestige, but its not a dealbreaker for me.

Vault rankings mean little to nothing aside from being able to tell people you work at a Vwhatever. Amigo above looks to still be a law student, so he does not get it. DO NOT think that just because a firm is ranked V20-50 it will be less intense than a firm ranked V1-20. This has been discussed AT LENGTH on this forum. Many firms in that band and above (Fried, Frank; Wilson Sonsini; Irell) are far more intense and demanding (and prestigious) than their vault ranking belies.

SmokeytheBear wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:

KijiStewart wrote:

PotatoSalad wrote:<Post unrelated to S&C>

Does every practice group at S&C NY work 65+ hours? I've always been enamored with it, yet at the same time don't know if I can handle it and don't want to waste a bid on a firm whose hypothetical offer I'll have to reject.

I am no expert on S&C, and I'm curious why you'd be interested in them if you're hesitant about NY in general, but I believe I've heard that junior associates at S&C often don't have to work Sundays.

I also don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer student that went from a school ranked 70-80 when they turn down stellar students that didn't have to transfer. Considering the average transfer student to Columbia has a GPA of 3.71 from their past school, and S&C would probably be targeting students with that GPA who spent their first year at Columbia, I don't know how interested they'd be in a transfer.

If you're hesitant about being worked to death, why not consider firms V20-V50. Honestly that's where I'd target if I were a transfer.

V20 - V50 is perfectly cool with me. I'm even ok with V75.

1) Anyone got an idea about Sidley Austin NY hours.

2) Do personal contacts at these firms help if a firm is doing EIW. Ie a former classmate or close relative being either an associate / experienced investment banker + serious client of firm. I ask because if I have a contact at firm X, should I bid it higher.

Re: S & C. For some reason I've always viewed it as having tons of prestige. Can't deny I like prestige, but its not a dealbreaker for me.

Vault rankings mean little to nothing aside from being able to tell people you work at a Vwhatever. Amigo above looks to still be a law student, so he does not get it. DO NOT think that just because a firm is ranked V20-50 it will be less intense than a firm ranked V1-20. This has been discussed AT LENGTH on this forum. Many firms in that band and above (Fried, Frank; Wilson Sonsini; Irell) are far more intense and demanding (and prestigious) than their vault ranking belies.

It's true I am a law student. I stand by what I said. If I were a transfer I would target V20-V50, mostly as a strategy to get offers. I realize it came across as saying work-life is better in V20-V50, but I meant it as: If you're worried about S&C NY work, expand your horizons to firms that are not immediately viewed as the most prestigious and you'll undoubtedly find something that would be more suitable.

I'm assuming that by T6 you mean CCN. I think that, if you're at UChicago, then you won't have much of a problem bidding Chicago without ties. Going to UC should be ties enough. If you're at Columbia or NYU I would seriously consider bidding NYC as a backup. Just because you get an offer there doesn't mean you have to accept. But, I think the posts above are correct insofar as most markets outside of NYC and DC generally want ties and bidding smaller markets without ties is a crapshoot.

Also, agree with above posters that Vault means little as to the quality of life at a firm.It doesn't mean much for prestige either unless you're a law student. Although, because law students care a lot about Vault they will bid primarily based on the Vault rankings. Thus, understand that you're going to be competing against your new school's top kids if you want S&C (i.e., your chances aren't good). Apply broadly to V100 firms that have decent sized offices in whichever market you're applying and you should be fine. Mass mail like crazy and, again, bid NYC (especially if you're at Columbia or NYU).

Good luck.

Koval pretty much hits on it. If you are at Uchicago, you are probably safe bidding just Chicago. There are plenty of international students at the big firms here.

If not, probably can still bid some Chicago firms, but would be really dumb to not bid NYC. I don't think any other market would be worth bidding.

And if you are going to work big law you'll have to get used to working long hours. Some weeks you'll only work 20 hours, but many others will be 80+. It is just the nature of the beast.

You sure sound like you'd be a great colleague. Law firms anywhere would be lucky to have you.

I feel like I can help out OP on a few questions.

1) I'm a junior associate at a Vault firm in Miami. Don't ever rely on getting a job in Miami – there are about 20-30 summer associate positions in the ENTIRE city every year (for the sake of reference, S&C takes between 80 and 130 summer associates every year). It is all about having as many connections as possible. I had great grades from a T10, but I know for a fact that I got my job bc of an uncle who is a senior partner. (Didn't stop them from giving me the offer in late November. Not fun.)

2) There might be a correlation between prestige/ranking and work-life balance, but it is very, very loose. Everyone on this board could name a dozen or so V100s that will make you work 80+ hours a week regularly.

3) Any large firm you choose has a 50-60% chance of ruining your life with long hours. If you pick a firm with a reputation for a good culture and work-life balance, that chance goes down to 40-50%. HTH

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.